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Best passenger high speed train in UK?

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Deepgreen

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A German friend, also a driver asked me what i thought the best high speed train we have is in my view? I have to say i like the Azuma best. Fast, good looking, good cabins and a real leap forward from the HSTs i used to drive.
You?
You are presumably, then, asking this mainly from a driver's perspective?

With the remaining HSTs having been re-engined I’m not so sure a class 91 with 9 vehicles is quicker than a 2+8 set as used by XC.
I suspect your user name may be telling here ;) (neither am I, BTW)! In very basic terms (leaving aside gearing, etc.) a class 91 has 6,480hp against an HST's 4,500hp. That's an extra 1,980hp for one trailer coach in an 8 vs 9 coach comparison.
 
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notadriver

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You are presumably, then, asking this mainly from a driver's perspective?


I suspect your user name may be telling here ;) (neither am I, BTW)! In very basic terms (leaving aside gearing, etc.) a class 91 has 6,480hp against an HST's 4,500hp. That's an extra 1,980hp for one trailer coach in an 8 vs 9 coach comparison.

Very true Deepgreen - and from what I’ve been reading in good rail conditions they are/were very fast to accelerate in the upper speed ranges. But this is dependent on the 91 being able to get its power down through just 4 powered axles in good rail conditions.
 

greyman42

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Last one I got on had no window view from my seat, limited head wiggle-room, and it was dimly lit. The new Northern trains were far comfier.
A lot of passengers, including myself, prefer dimly lit carriages.
 

43096

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I suspect your user name may be telling here ;) (neither am I, BTW)! In very basic terms (leaving aside gearing, etc.) a class 91 has 6,480hp against an HST's 4,500hp. That's an extra 1,980hp for one trailer coach in an 8 vs 9 coach comparison.
And that's an uneven comparison as the Class 91 rating is at the wheel, whereas the HST rating is engine output, before traction losses, train supply etc.
 

Milo T.K

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Covering all aspects id say Mk4s for comfort, IET for ride quality, acceleration and design, Saftey wise the 390 is pretty much a tank. Hst for nostalgia however the Intercity 125s need to go honestly.
 

nlogax

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390s for me. Good mix of safety, comfort and the rest. Also appreciate the tilt from the Lake District and north which adds something to the views and general experience.
 

Journeyman

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390s for me. Good mix of safety, comfort and the rest. Also appreciate the tilt from the Lake District and north which adds something to the views and general experience.
Agree, the northern bit of the WCML is quite exciting in a Pendolino.
 

greyman42

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Covering all aspects id say Mk4s for comfort, IET for ride quality, acceleration and design, Saftey wise the 390 is pretty much a tank. Hst for nostalgia however the Intercity 125s need to go honestly.
I think the ride quality on a 8xx is inferior compared to MK3/4.
 

PeterY

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HST. Wins hands down. (From a passenger perpective)

Edit. comfy, dont feel hemmed in, nice and quick.
For me as well. HST every time, especially with their comfy seats.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the ride quality on a 8xx is inferior compared to MK3/4.

I think it's better, particularly than the Mk4. The Mk4 is the only train where I've ever started to consider going and pulling the red handle because I was convinced a bogie had derailed (but the racket and vibration stopped before I got to it). The Mk3 isn't bad but I do find they sway side to side a bit much, the side to side damping seems inadequate.

But I think it could be personal preference, I'm very much used to the fairly firm ride of 350s and it's very similar to those. Indeed I find riding in an 80x is, Fainsa's finest aside, near identical to riding in the excellent Class 444 in terms of overall feel. It basically is the "Class 344" I have long called for.
 

43096

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I think it's better, particularly than the Mk4.
There's a very large number of people, including those in the industry, who disagree.

I had Mark 3, Mark 4 and 801 over the same stretch of track within a week when when the 801s were new. Mark 3 gave the best ride, then Mark 4 (whichever I've never considered good) and the 80x was.... just atrocious.
 

Pigeon

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HSTs. For all the reasons others have already mentioned, plus two more:
- Droplights. You can still get some actual air, even if you do have to stand up to do it. And they became doubly useful when the lifestyle police decided to force their preferences for how to relax and pass the time on trains onto everyone in place of the previous practice of allowing a choice.
- Van space. It's strange to recall how when the HSTs first came in they were exceptional in imposing a fixed limit on numbers of bicycles to be carried because of the "small" van space, and became exceptional in having bicycle accommodation to die for in comparison with the abortions now commonplace.

ambition to compete with other countries in respect of high speed travel

If only we really had dropped this idiotic idea then we would save an awful lot of wasted resources. What kind of transport network a country needs depends on all kinds of factors such as population distribution, land use patterns, distances between centres etc etc etc which are particular to that country, and it makes no sense at all to decide what one country ought to have by looking at what is found suitable in a different country where all those conditions are different, then choosing a bigger and shinier version of that in order to go "ner ner ner ours is bigger than yours and you smell".

If you want to get from London to Newcastle then it matters not a monkey's nut whether you can get from Paris to Lyons by Star Trek transporter or whether you have to walk it barefoot, because you're not doing that journey. What matters is how you can get from London to Newcastle, which leads directly to considerations like

And the train can be awful and still people will use it because drivin is worse.

Trains don't need to try and beat cars on speed. They already do, they do so more and more as the roads get more choked, and even without that the advantage is secure; there is no way the 70mph road speed limit is ever going to be increased. What they do need to provide is capacity, to avoid becoming choked themselves in turn. Capacity is fundamentally inversely proportional to speed (a good bit of railway technical development has been directed at fudging around this point, which goes some way to explaining how obfuscated it is), and there are a whole bunch of secondary considerations which also render the two concepts antithetical, many of them deriving from matters of limited resource availability or of energy consumption (energy consumption rises as the square of the speed, and power handling requirements for supply equipment, traction motors etc as the cube; energy considerations alone are a strong reason to avoid increased speed in the current environmental situation).

Ambition to compete with other countries on speed is futile and counterproductive. The ambition should instead be to address the requirements of this country for capacity increases without which the railway will eventually run out of its ability to provide a superior alternative to anything.
 

Ken H

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HSTs. For all the reasons others have already mentioned, plus two more:
- Droplights. You can still get some actual air, even if you do have to stand up to do it. And they became doubly useful when the lifestyle police decided to force their preferences for how to relax and pass the time on trains onto everyone in place of the previous practice of allowing a choice.
- Van space. It's strange to recall how when the HSTs first came in they were exceptional in imposing a fixed limit on numbers of bicycles to be carried because of the "small" van space, and became exceptional in having bicycle accommodation to die for in comparison with the abortions now commonplace.



If only we really had dropped this idiotic idea then we would save an awful lot of wasted resources. What kind of transport network a country needs depends on all kinds of factors such as population distribution, land use patterns, distances between centres etc etc etc which are particular to that country, and it makes no sense at all to decide what one country ought to have by looking at what is found suitable in a different country where all those conditions are different, then choosing a bigger and shinier version of that in order to go "ner ner ner ours is bigger than yours and you smell".

If you want to get from London to Newcastle then it matters not a monkey's nut whether you can get from Paris to Lyons by Star Trek transporter or whether you have to walk it barefoot, because you're not doing that journey. What matters is how you can get from London to Newcastle, which leads directly to considerations like



Trains don't need to try and beat cars on speed. They already do, they do so more and more as the roads get more choked, and even without that the advantage is secure; there is no way the 70mph road speed limit is ever going to be increased. What they do need to provide is capacity, to avoid becoming choked themselves in turn. Capacity is fundamentally inversely proportional to speed (a good bit of railway technical development has been directed at fudging around this point, which goes some way to explaining how obfuscated it is), and there are a whole bunch of secondary considerations which also render the two concepts antithetical, many of them deriving from matters of limited resource availability or of energy consumption (energy consumption rises as the square of the speed, and power handling requirements for supply equipment, traction motors etc as the cube; energy considerations alone are a strong reason to avoid increased speed in the current environmental situation).

Ambition to compete with other countries on speed is futile and counterproductive. The ambition should instead be to address the requirements of this country for capacity increases without which the railway will eventually run out of its ability to provide a superior alternative to anything.
you can make capacity without having more trains. you have longer trains. how many inter city route stations cant handle 11 or 12 23m vehicles?
 

Astro_Orbiter

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Flirt 160 vs 200 is mostly a marketing exercise and not that significant for operating speed. Ask them for 200 and they'll upgrade the required components to operate at 200, but it's not a fundamentally different train. Or vice-versa. Just like plenty of carriages on the continent got upgraded from 160 to 200 with a few tweaks.

Just look at the PKP flirts which Stadler lists on the Flirt 200 page, but nevertheless are specced for 160, have the 160 front, but 200 doors. The 745 has something like the 200 front, 160 doors, specced for 160 - same story with the TFW units. Or then move onto the Dostos, where Westbahn have Dostos rated for 200 km/h that are really just a Dosto 160 but with components upgraded to run at 200 (the second series got different doors, and are pressure-tight - but the original ones didn't have that).
May well be, but the 110mph desiros in the UK doesn't mean a 450 or 185 is a high speed train ,even though the product is capable.
The 745 is not a high speed train in any sense of the word. It's barely a long distance train even, it's the pointy "fast" looking cab end design which makes it look like it's high speed.
 

James James

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May well be, but the 110mph desiros in the UK doesn't mean a 450 or 185 is a high speed train ,even though the product is capable.
The 745 is not a high speed train in any sense of the word. It's barely a long distance train even, it's the pointy "fast" looking cab end design which makes it look like it's high speed.
It's a flawed comparison. Certainly the 745 itself isn't high speed - and no one is claiming it is, but the 745 is the member of a family of trains that goes to 200km/h, has the same front design as 200km/h trains (hence will have the right ratings to be approved at that speed), and is just missing the gearing and probably some bogie components for 200km/h. The 450 and 185 are not part of such a family, desiro was mostly up to 160km/h, and the UK units with 110 were exceptions.

Fact is, if you asked both Stadler and Siemens to give you a "UK highspeed" (200km/h) unit, Stadler would give you something that looks like a 745 (maybe single-leaf door though), Siemens would have to start from scratch.
 

Domh245

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Fact is, if you asked both Stadler and Siemens to give you a "UK highspeed" (200km/h) unit, Stadler would give you something that looks like a 745 (maybe single-leaf door though), Siemens would have to start from scratch.

It is worth noting that when Stadler bid for a UK highspeed contract in the form of the East Midlands intercity fleet, they offered 33 SMILEs, not FLIRTs
 

SolomonSouth

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It's a flawed comparison. Certainly the 745 itself isn't high speed - and no one is claiming it is, but the 745 is the member of a family of trains that goes to 200km/h, has the same front design as 200km/h trains (hence will have the right ratings to be approved at that speed), and is just missing the gearing and probably some bogie components for 200km/h. The 450 and 185 are not part of such a family, desiro was mostly up to 160km/h, and the UK units with 110 were exceptions.

Fact is, if you asked both Stadler and Siemens to give you a "UK highspeed" (200km/h) unit, Stadler would give you something that looks like a 745 (maybe single-leaf door though), Siemens would have to start from scratch.
The Class 745’s max speed is 100mph.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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It's a flawed comparison. Certainly the 745 itself isn't high speed - and no one is claiming it is, but the 745 is the member of a family of trains that goes to 200km/h, has the same front design as 200km/h trains (hence will have the right ratings to be approved at that speed), and is just missing the gearing and probably some bogie components for 200km/h. The 450 and 185 are not part of such a family, desiro was mostly up to 160km/h, and the UK units with 110 were exceptions.

Fact is, if you asked both Stadler and Siemens to give you a "UK highspeed" (200km/h) unit, Stadler would give you something that looks like a 745 (maybe single-leaf door though), Siemens would have to start from scratch.
I see what you're saying, but all this doesn't make the class 745 a high speed train. Nor the 755. The 745 as it currently is has a 100mph top speed which doesn't really qualify for high speed in the UK or rest of world. The routes they are intended to operate are only 100mph max, or 90mph on the West Anglia side. That's why it was almost laughable that some people thought GA should have got IET variants for the "Intercity" services.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It's a flawed comparison. Certainly the 745 itself isn't high speed - and no one is claiming it is, but the 745 is the member of a family of trains that goes to 200km/h, has the same front design as 200km/h trains (hence will have the right ratings to be approved at that speed), and is just missing the gearing and probably some bogie components for 200km/h. The 450 and 185 are not part of such a family, desiro was mostly up to 160km/h, and the UK units with 110 were exceptions.

Fact is, if you asked both Stadler and Siemens to give you a "UK highspeed" (200km/h) unit, Stadler would give you something that looks like a 745 (maybe single-leaf door though), Siemens would have to start from scratch.
I'm almost certain that much of the anti-Stadler sentiment on this website is based on very superficial reasons- perhaps simply contrarianism because "normals" seem to really like them.

As far as the top speed goes, what would be the point in ordering a train with a 140mph top speed when the linespeed of the route is highly unlikely to ever get above 100? That would be like buying a Lamborghini Countach when you live at the end of a narrow bumpy country track.
 

Astro_Orbiter

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I don't think it's anti sradler sentiment really, it's people pretending that the 745 is some kind of high speed intercity revolution. It's a 100mph 12 car emu with a small buffet in some of them. I love the sliding step but apart from that there's nothing especially game changing about them.
 

notadriver

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I don't think it's anti sradler sentiment really, it's people pretending that the 745 is some kind of high speed intercity revolution. It's a 100mph 12 car emu with a small buffet in some of them. I love the sliding step but apart from that there's nothing especially game changing about them.

As it’s a European emu design does it have a forward view for the passenger as is common in Germany for example ?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It is worth noting that when Stadler bid for a UK highspeed contract in the form of the East Midlands intercity fleet, they offered 33 SMILEs, not FLIRTs
The Smile/Giruno works up to 230km/h, the speed of most Swiss high-speed lines (including the new long tunnel sections on the Gotthard axis).
 

Adrian1980uk

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The Stadler flirts are good at what they do, 2 hour run but the differential between a full high speed intercity train is somewhat blurred anyway as shown in this debate. 100mph commuter trains to 110 mph class 90 stock to 125mph class 8xx is all about gearing anyway, you could gear The only true high speed trains are the Eurostars or the javelins in the uk
 
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