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Could we see a more intensive service through Castlefield with more electrification?

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adamedwards

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A thought re platforms 13 and 14. These are 13 car platforms. Reading the above the longest trains through the platforms are 6 cars? So should the rear 7 car length of each platform be fenced off? This creates a much wider safe space for waiting passengers, helping cope with the rush hour. Would this improve reliability? The fencing and furniture on the platform would of course be designed to be unbolted if platforms 15 and 16 are ever built but that's 4 years away.
 
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ohgoditsjames

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Liverpool to Sheffield absolutely should be electrified, but I can’t imagine how much of a nightmare the 5.7km (3.5mi) long Totley tunnel would be to electricity o_O
 
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Ianno87

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Liverpool to Sheffield absolutely should be electrified, but I can’t imagine how much of a nightmare the 5.7km (3.5mi) long Totley tunnel tunnel would be to electricity o_O

Unless bi-mode trains are introduced, there is little point unless beyond Sheffield (North and south) is also done.

It probably makes an logical follow-on once MML wires reach Sheffield.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think, like nearly everyone here, that the best solution for Castlefield, pre-HS2 and NPR, is a simpler pattern and no LD trains. The Barrow/Windermere/Holyhead/Scotland services are better off in Manchester Victoria, just because they are disruptive in Castlefield. The CLC needs 4 tph (2 fast, 2 slow, post-NPR all would be slow) to either Picadilly or Oxford Road, and IMO Southport and Blackpool North (or Wigan NW via Bolton to have more electrics) are the best use of 4 tph via Bolton. An additional 2 tph could run through the Ordsall Chord, maybe the Hull and the Huddersfield terminators?

I don't see why Barrow and Windermere are a problem - they can be operated using 195s (or 331s once Windermere is wired) and have considerable tourist demand. Edinburgh I might be inclined to agree because there are plenty of airports in Scotland.

Liverpool to Sheffield absolutely should be electrified, but I can’t imagine how much of a nightmare the 5.7km (3.5mi) long Totley tunnel tunnel would be to electricity o_O

It's fairly likely most long distance EMUs will have batteries over time, plus supercapacitors may provide a chemically less environmentally unfriendly alternative. if so you just miss the tunnel out.
 

Peregrine 4903

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We could have a much more intense service through Castlefield - look at how Thameslink manages dozens of services an hour on a two track line - look at the proposed frequencies for Crossrail - but these lines through London are kept simple through the "core" section. And, importantly, no freight through Thameslink/ Crossrail!

Whereas Manchester (or rather, the towns near Manchester) seem more focussed on lots of direct links (everywhere to Castlefield, everywhere to the Airport, various cross-Manchester services like the Stockport line to the Bolton line, plus the long distance Liverpool - Norwich service)

13/14 are messier than stations in the Crossrail core will be because they have a range of people wanting a range of trains (e.g. you may have a service to Glasgow/ Southport/ Middlesbrough/ Llandudno within a short space of time, so lots of different types of people all cramming onto the platform whilst they wait rather than being able to board the first train that arrives)

We don't need electrification to improve the number of services that can run reliably through Castlefield, we just need someone to take a tough decision and upset various places by removing their Castlefield link

For example, if you wanted a simple twelve trains per hour you'd need to accept everything stopping at all of the stations between Piccadilly/ Oxford Road/ Deansgate/ Salford Crescent/ Victoria that they serve, since the kind of "metro" frequencies require "metro" stopping patterns - we're not going to be able to arrange a uniform frequency when trains have different stopping patterns, so every Castlefield service stops at all stations it passes in central Manchester (and Salford). Ideally I'd suggest that everything that goes to the Airport serves all stops on the Airport line too, to keep things uniform.

I guess as a simple starting point (to use as a baseline to argue against) you could have six on the Bolton corridor and six on the Ordsall Chord to Victoria - but then that leaves Liverpool without a service to Piccadilly (and four trains per hour using the flat crossing into the terminal platform at Oxford Road will eat into capacity for services to Piccadilly)

You want to add in some Liverpool trains to maintain the Piccadilly link? Okay, but there's not going to be six CLC services per hour (the line struggles to cope with four), so does that mean four on the CLC, four to Bolton and four round the Chord to Victoria?

But now with three different destinations, things are getting a bit messier, a uniform five minute service pattern is going to be a lot harder to arrange (look at the badly spaced services on the Airport branch to see what happens when you try to cram lots of long distance trains from a diverse number of starting points down a two track corridor)

You can't abandon the Ordsall Chord (however much people regret it, it'd be political suicide to spend best part of a hundred million pounds and then leave it unused), so does the Bolton line miss out? That'd be cutting the Windsor Link and meaning no service from north of Manchester to south of Manchester (other than the TPE services from Leeds to the Airport)

And what about the eastern side of Castlefield? Twelve per hour to the Airport would be overkill (services only had an average of thirtysomething passengers per service pre-Covid, so increasing the number of trains will be spreading those passengers even thinner, assuming that flights go back to the demand they had). But crossing several services per hour onto the Stockport lines is going to create a lot of conflicts given the flat junctions.

It'd be politically unacceptable to remove another long distance service from Liverpool (given local 'concerns'), but then it'd be politically unacceptable to add an extra ten/ fifteen minutes onto the Sheffield - central Manchester journey times by diverting services north east from Stockport towards Ashton, so I think that you have to accept a Sheffield - Castlefield - Liverpool service (I'd be fine with all Sheffield services terminating in the main shed - I think that the through service is of more benefit to Liverpool than to Sheffield - but the two half hourly services tie together pretty well in terms of stock/frequency/ unelectrified lines, so I can see logic in a half hourly service)

So, with that in mind, the only thing that keeps things fairly "simple" through Castlefield and maintains a space for freight as well as not removing a long distance service from Liverpool would be ten passenger trains per hour, eight of which run all stops from the Airport to Deansgate and two of which are from Sheffield to Liverpool:

  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Bolton corridor (Blackpool etc)
  • 4x Airport - Deansgate - Ordsall Chord (TPE to Leeds etc)
  • 2x Sheffield - Deansgate - Liverpool (starting at Nottingham, Cleethorpes etc)
  • 2x Oxford Road - Liverpool stoppers
  • Matching electrified routes to electrified routes to minimise the number of DMUs under the wires
  • Try to simplify other service patterns through Manchester and avoid conflicts, e.g. the Atherton services come through Salford Central and into the northern (high numbered) platforms at Victoria so should continue on the northern side towards Rochdale whereas services from Chat Moss would be using the southern (low numbered) platforms at Victoria and therefore continue on the southern side towards Stalybridge (or terminating at Newton Heath) - avoid conflict where possible - you can get a lot more services along a particular stretch of track when you minimise the number of conflicting movements
The main benefits being:

  • An easy to understand map of services through central Manchester
  • A "turn up and go" frequency where possible (eight trains per hour from the Airport to Deansgate is pretty much Metrolink frequency)
  • Lots of connections per hour at Victoria/ Salford for other lines wanting a Castlefield/ Airport service
  • Liverpool gets to keep long distance services
It'd annoy a few people in far flung places, it's far from perfect, but it seems the only way to achieve a Castlefield service that is as simple and frequent and reliable as it can be given the diverse range of potential destinations. Put it this way, there's a reason why Crossrail is going to be a fairly simple/ boring "metro" line, rather than having platforms in central London trying to cope with a combination of hourly services, e.g. Cardiff to Norwich followed by a Heathrow to Cambridge followed by an Oxford to Kent service... that'd be a nightmare of different routes/ passengers - bound to become unreliable and see crowds of different people all trying to use the same platform for a huge number of far flung destinations. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

(obviously all of this would change if we found hundreds of millions of pounds to electrify various lines/ build grade separated junctions/ add in two more island platforms at Piccadilly etc, but I'm trying to focus in terms of what's possible with what we have rather than getting the crayons out!)
To be fair, I would disagree that Thameslink is kept simple. While it has a unfiorm fleet, Thameslink is otherwise pretty similar to Castlefield right now in terms of variety of service destinations.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair, I would disagree that Thameslink is kept simple. While it has a unfiorm fleet, Thameslink is otherwise pretty similar to Castlefield right now in terms of variety of service destinations.

Not only that, but it was made more complex - originally it was just Bedford-Brighton and the Sutton loop.
 

Peregrine 4903

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I think another thing is that a Castlefield style Thameslink/Crossrail operation won't work without some of the junctions in the Manchester area. One of the main reasons why Thameslink can run the level of service it runs is the London Bridge rebuild, taking away some of the major conflicts. Manchester needs at least a couple of the flat junctions grade seperated to allow a more reliable service on Castlefield corridor to operate.
 

Bald Rick

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Liverpool to Sheffield absolutely should be electrified, but I can’t imagine how much of a nightmare the 5.7km (3.5mi) long Totley tunnel would be to electricity o_O

Tunnels are rarely a nightmare to electrify, assuming there is clearance, which there usually is. In fact they are usually easier - no piling, no masts, just bolt the small part steelwork to the tunnel.

Not only that, but it was made more complex - originally it was just Bedford-Brighton and the Sutton loop.

Originally it was Bedford - Gatwick / Brighton, Luton - Sevenoaks, and Cricklewood - Purley (I think). Sutton loop was much later - around 1994.
 

cle

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Tunnels are rarely a nightmare to electrify, assuming there is clearance, which there usually is. In fact they are usually easier - no piling, no masts, just bolt the small part steelwork to the tunnel.



Originally it was Bedford - Gatwick / Brighton, Luton - Sevenoaks, and Cricklewood - Purley (I think). Sutton loop was much later - around 1994.
There was Guildford via West Croydon and Bookham too! Which then became the random Guildford-West Croydon shuttles. Not sure if Guildford was ever via Mitcham.


To an earlier point, if there were bays or another island at Victoria for westbound services, moving the Scotland/Cumbria/North (& South Wales) services there would be a massive help to Castlefield and Piccadilly. It would really give Victoria a boost too.

Preston (or Bolton) would offer the Cumbria / Northern Lancs connections to Man Airport via the Blackpools. Scots really shouldn't be training down to MAN, and if they are, the timetable doesn't have to accommodate that too readily.
 

Bald Rick

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There was Guildford via West Croydon and Bookham too! Which then became the random Guildford-West Croydon shuttles. Not sure if Guildford was ever via Mitcham.

Not originally - that came after a year or two.
 

tbtc

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To be fair, I would disagree that Thameslink is kept simple. While it has a unfiorm fleet, Thameslink is otherwise pretty similar to Castlefield right now in terms of variety of service destinations.

Fair point

Thameslink isn't as simple as it should be IMHO (but then I guess there was pressure from various places to have "their" local line running through the core (e.g. Wimbledon/Sutton folks were angry about plans to remove their through service) - however the timetable/service pattern have been built around the grade separated junctions (or, possibly, the grade separated junctions have been built to accommodated the proposed timetable/ service pattern, so the junctions are less of a problem than the various flat moves around Manchester

However discussions on here about Castlefield tend to end up arguments about how amazingly perfect everything could be if only we had a billion pounds for a four-tracked Castlefield/ tunnel underneath the city centre/ flyovers at Slade/ electrification of lots of lines/ complaints about Westminster etc, rather than people dealing with the realities of Manchester's currently compromised infrastructure
 

Peregrine 4903

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Fair point

Thameslink isn't as simple as it should be IMHO (but then I guess there was pressure from various places to have "their" local line running through the core (e.g. Wimbledon/Sutton folks were angry about plans to remove their through service) - however the timetable/service pattern have been built around the grade separated junctions (or, possibly, the grade separated junctions have been built to accommodated the proposed timetable/ service pattern, so the junctions are less of a problem than the various flat moves around Manchester

However discussions on here about Castlefield tend to end up arguments about how amazingly perfect everything could be if only we had a billion pounds for a four-tracked Castlefield/ tunnel underneath the city centre/ flyovers at Slade/ electrification of lots of lines/ complaints about Westminster etc, rather than people dealing with the realities of Manchester's currently compromised infrastructure
I 100% agree. But there are still a lot of flat junctions that Thameslink services have to deal with, Blackfriars and Windmill Bridge Junctions being the biggest and I still think Thameslink as an overall service handles itself really well.

I know a lot of people on this form support simplification, but I think Thameslink works really well with its complex service pattern. I do agree though the Wimbledon services probably should have gone into the Blackfriars bay and Sevenoaks gone through the core as its created a completely unessecary crossing move at Loughborough Junction because of that.
 

Greybeard33

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To an earlier point, if there were bays or another island at Victoria for westbound services, moving the Scotland/Cumbria/North (& South Wales) services there would be a massive help to Castlefield and Piccadilly. It would really give Victoria a boost too.

Preston (or Bolton) would offer the Cumbria / Northern Lancs connections to Man Airport via the Blackpools. Scots really shouldn't be training down to MAN, and if they are, the timetable doesn't have to accommodate that too readily.
It is not for the railway to tell people which airport they "should" use. Scots choose to travel via Manchester, and foreign visitors to Scotland likewise, because Manchester Airport has flights to a much greater range of international destinations than any of the Scottish airports. Pre-pandemic, Manchester Airport handled more passengers than Edinburgh, Glasgow and Prestwick combined.

If the rail journey is made slower and more hassle, some of those international passengers will use feeder flights between Scotland and Heathrow or Amsterdam instead.
 

cle

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It is not for the railway to tell people which airport they "should" use. Scots choose to travel via Manchester, and foreign visitors to Scotland likewise, because Manchester Airport has flights to a much greater range of international destinations than any of the Scottish airports. Pre-pandemic, Manchester Airport handled more passengers than Edinburgh, Glasgow and Prestwick combined.

If the rail journey is made slower and more hassle, some of those international passengers will use feeder flights between Scotland and Heathrow or Amsterdam instead.
Which is absolutely fine. The railway should cater to the many over the few - of those combined passengers, how many travelled onwards to Scotland by train? And more than 1-2 times per year?

That line should be encouraging greater (daily) city rail use, especially in South Manchester where the suburban network is underused - the airport route is, in any case. Vs sporadic long distance airport journeys.
 

daodao

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By my count you have 12tph there not 10tph! And 4tph on the Ordsall Chord would mean ramming far too much into Victoria from the west. But that aside, it is not far from what is actually planned to happen in the December 2022 timetable change, under the Manchester Recovery Task Force Option B+ timetable. Except that there will be only 1tph on the Ordsall Chord (the Airport - Redcar/Saltburn) and the CLC stoppers will be split at Warrington Central, with the second tph being peak only on the Manchester side. Plus 1tph Airport - N Wales, 1tph Airport - Liverpool stopper via Chat Moss, and 1tph Oxford Road - Southport (to appease the vociferous Sandgrounders). 11tph + 1tph freight in the standard hour.
In contrast to tbtc's sensible suggestions above, option B+ is far too complicated and will not solve the Castlefield problem. The service needs to be arranged as pairs, running every 30 minutes. Other than 2 tph Sheffield-Liverpool services (which cannot practically be re-routed) and the CLC stopping service terminating at Oxford Road, which should run every 30 minutes to be of practical use, all services on the Castlefield line should be local services for NW England and run by emus with doors opening at thirds. In particular, the proposals for the 1tph Airport - N Wales and 1tph Oxford Road - Southport services, both of which are diesel, will be extremely disruptive. All Southport trains should run to/from platforms 5/6 at Victoria, and the North Wales service should run to/from Victoria platforms 3/4, alternately with an additional 1tph Manchester-Warrington BQ-Chester service.
 

A0

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To be fair, I would disagree that Thameslink is kept simple. While it has a unfiorm fleet, Thameslink is otherwise pretty similar to Castlefield right now in terms of variety of service destinations.

The TL core is the "simple" bit as it's consistent units of consistent performance following a consistent stopping pattern, what happens beyond the core is a different question. Castlefield doesn't have the consistent units following a consistent stopping pattern and has freight in the mix as well.
 

HS2isgood

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I don't see why Barrow and Windermere are a problem - they can be operated using 195s (or 331s once Windermere is wired) and have considerable tourist demand. Edinburgh I might be inclined to agree because there are plenty of airports in Scotland.
In contrast to tbtc's sensible suggestions above, option B+ is far too complicated and will not solve the Castlefield problem. The service needs to be arranged as pairs, running every 30 minutes. Other than 2 tph Sheffield-Liverpool services (which cannot practically be re-routed) and the CLC stopping service terminating at Oxford Road, which should run every 30 minutes to be of practical use, all services on the Castlefield line should be local services for NW England and run by emus with doors opening at thirds. In particular, the proposals for the 1tph Airport - N Wales and 1tph Oxford Road - Southport services, both of which are diesel, will be extremely disruptive.
As the service should be provided in half-hourly intervals, the non-half-hourly services without doors at thirds like Cumbria and Scotland shouldn't run in the Castlefield corridor. The Southport service should run to either Victoria or Picadilly, but not one to each. IMO Castlefield needs 2 tph Sheffield-Liverpool, 2 tph Oxford Road-Liverpool via CLC, 2 tph round the Ordsall Chord (maybe terminate at Stalybridge?), 2 tph Blackpool North and 2 tph Wigan NW via Bolton (once electrified, right now it could be Southport). Cumbria/Scotland would terminate at Victoria, and Chester at Stalybridge. Holyhead should run via Altrincham in the mid-term, as long as level crossings aren't sorted they could terminate at Victoria

As most people in here understand, Victoria would be segregated into Calder Valley-Salford Crescent and Chat Moss-TPML services. After TRU, I'd make the two Standedge stoppers be the ones to go round the chord, and run the Chesters to Stalybridge.
 

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As the service should be provided in half-hourly intervals, the non-half-hourly services without doors at thirds like Cumbria and Scotland shouldn't run in the Castlefield corridor.

You have a point over half-hourly services, though as the Cumbria runs via Wigan you could use it as one of the half hourly Wigan services, just send it via Westhoughton instead of Parkside (as indeed it did in the 90s).

It does operate using doors at thirds units - 195s - and if wired would be 331s.
 

HS2isgood

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You have a point over half-hourly services, though as the Cumbria runs via Wigan you could use it as one of the half hourly Wigan services, just send it via Westhoughton instead of Parkside (as indeed it did in the 90s).

It does operate using doors at thirds units - 195s - and if wired would be 331s.
The layout at Wigan North Western makes it extremely inconvenient to run any service through either Atherton or Westhoughton into the WCML north of there. Furthermore, they come from long single line workings, which can transmit delays. Thanks for the information that it's a 195.
 

Bletchleyite

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The layout at Wigan North Western makes it extremely inconvenient to run any service through either Atherton or Westhoughton into the WCML north of there. Furthermore, they come from long single line workings, which can transmit delays. Thanks for the information that it's a 195.

A pretty solid 195 too, as using a 90 or 75mph unit may cause pathing issues on the WCML.
 

Purple Orange

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I can’t see any intensive commuter services being run through Manchester until there is an answer for having the fast TPEs moved elsewhere, through an NPR solution. Even then, electrification of the CLC is needed and a completed northern hub, with full Transpennine Route Upgrade completed and post HS2.

Considering that, only a ‘mini Thameslink’ operation may be possible with 14 tph through Castlefield and Victoria split between Regional and Commuter services, with a uniform fleet of trains and doors at thirds.

All talk of doing things within the confines of the current infrastructure is for the birds. It can only result in tinkering around the edges of the current timetable, with nothing significantly beneficial achieved.

Going back to the ‘mini thameslink’ idea, with regional & commuter services. All trains stop at Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Salford Crescent and Victoria if the train goes through those stations.

Castlefield Regional:
  • 2 Liverpool - Sheffield via Warrington
    • (1 continues to Cleethorpes, 1 to Nottingham)
Castlefield Commuter (all stop):
  • 4 Liverpool - Airport via Warrington
  • 4 Stalybridge - Airport via Victoria
    • (2 run to Huddersfield)
  • 4 Blackpool - Hazel Grove
    • (2 continue to Buxton)
Victoria Regional:
  • 1 North Wales - Leeds via Rochdale
  • 1 Scotland
  • 1 Windermere
  • 2 Liverpool - Hull
  • 1 Chester - Leeds
Victoria Commuter:
  • 2 Burnley - Clitheroe
  • 2 Southport - Rochdale via Bolton
  • 4 Stalybridge - Airport via Victoria
    • (2 run to Huddersfield)
 

Bletchleyite

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You're going to have trouble pathing 4 Liverpool-Airport via Warrington in addition to the Liverpool-Sheffield via Warrington. 2 is the best you will path.

You could potentially do 3 if one was an express and you portion worked the Nottingham/Cleethorpes, but you'd have to find a suitable join/split platform at Sheffield for that.
 

Purple Orange

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You're going to have trouble pathing 4 Liverpool-Airport via Warrington in addition to the Liverpool-Sheffield via Warrington. 2 is the best you will path.

You could potentially do 3 if one was an express and you portion worked the Nottingham/Cleethorpes, but you'd have to find a suitable join/split platform at Sheffield for that.

What would prevent 4 airport - Liverpool via Warrington? The line is being looked at for tram-train which would be 5 tph, with heavy rail still in the mix.
 

cle

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I can't see where the future Wigan NW EMU / Westhougton services feature here.
 

Purple Orange

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I can't see where the future Wigan NW EMU / Westhougton services feature here.

I’ve clearly overlooked them. Sod it, through them in the mix. However if those services are to be 4 tph with 6-car units, the premise of devising a network of regional and commuter services with trains al stopping at the central manchester stations remains. Giving priority to long distance trains is not workable.
 

cle

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I’ve clearly overlooked them. Sod it, through them in the mix. However if those services are to be 4 tph with 6-car units, the premise of devising a network of regional and commuter services with trains al stopping at the central manchester stations remains. Giving priority to long distance trains is not workable.
I wasn't sure if they were extensions to Blackpool, as you have 4tph vs today's 2tph. I think the Bolton/Chorley corridor could stand 6tph.

But in any case, I completely agree with you. And as I often bang on about, I would add the South Wales service into Victoria too. Gives 3tph to WBQ (to help CLC changes in future), opens up Victoria-Crewe as a connection, and removes a 2-4 car diesel path from Picc-Stockport-Crewe, which could be an 8-car semi-fast EMU to Crewe/Birmingham instead, or a 6 car EMU to Alderley Edge. Or maybe a Sheffield at a push, but preferably an electric, longer service.
 

Greybeard33

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In contrast to tbtc's sensible suggestions above, option B+ is far too complicated and will not solve the Castlefield problem. The service needs to be arranged as pairs, running every 30 minutes. Other than 2 tph Sheffield-Liverpool services (which cannot practically be re-routed) and the CLC stopping service terminating at Oxford Road, which should run every 30 minutes to be of practical use, all services on the Castlefield line should be local services for NW England and run by emus with doors opening at thirds. In particular, the proposals for the 1tph Airport - N Wales and 1tph Oxford Road - Southport services, both of which are diesel, will be extremely disruptive. All Southport trains should run to/from platforms 5/6 at Victoria, and the North Wales service should run to/from Victoria platforms 3/4, alternately with an additional 1tph Manchester-Warrington BQ-Chester service.
The MRTF Option B+ is the best that can be realistically achieved in the December 2022 timetable. On that timescale it is impractical to retrain sufficient TfW traincrew to enable the diversion of the N Wales service to/beyond Victoria, so it must continue to run through Castlefield. The end door Class 175s are to be replaced by new Class 197 units, which will have doors at thirds and have EMU-like performance, similar to the Northern 195s that work the Airport - Cumbria service.

The TPE Airport - Scotland and Airport - Saltburn services will still use end door stock, but with through passenger services at Piccadilly and Oxford Road reduced to only 8tph, it will surely be possible to accommodate slightly longer dwell times on 2tph of those.

Diversion of the Scotland service to Victoria would require infrastructure enhancements (e.g. new turnback siding) which again cannot realistically be delivered for December 2022. Likewise additional Ordsall Chord services, which would increase the quantum of services into Victoria from the west.

The 1tph Oxford Road - Warrington Central stopper will call at all stations, whereas the current 2tph Oxford Road - Liverpool skip stoppers only provide a 1tp2h service at four of the intermediate stations.

The Oxford Road - Southport service will presumably be worked by 769 bi-modes, which will use the wires between Oxford Road and Bolton.

The Option B+ changes do not preclude further timetable rationalisation in subsequent years, as and when infrastructure enhancements and crew route knowledge permit.

The perfect is the enemy of the good....
 

Bletchleyite

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What would prevent 4 airport - Liverpool via Warrington? The line is being looked at for tram-train which would be 5 tph, with heavy rail still in the mix.

Not enough paths, punctuality would be woeful. It's bad enough as it is. There is a reason Merseyrail is segregated and simple.

Tram train won't include the two expresses. It would be the "Merseyrail meets Metrolink" concept with tram train used purely so the freights can still run to Trafford Park.
 
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