I disagree with almost every word, other than it being off-topic. I suggest we continue the discussion in a more appropriate part of the forum.
I have moved the discussion following a report made through the report system.
TfL Conditions of carriage, 19th July 2021 until further notice...
View attachment 103020
Presumably, if you ignore this and are asked to leave the train/premises - but don't - then
you are in breach of the by-laws and can be subject to a fine.
Absolutely
not. TfL did request the Byelaws were changed but the Government
denied their request; TfL have no right to fine anyone.
In theory TfL could ask a passenger if they are exempt and if the passenger says "no", TfL could ask the passenger to leave the premises. If the passenger refuses to do, in theory the police could be called. However it is not particularly likely that the police would actually attend to forcibly remove someone. This is a hypothetical scenario; in practice there is no enforcement of this T&C.
In contrast, the rule requiring passengers to stand on the right on escalators is enforceable as this is within the byelaws.
As it is against the law to ask those who say the are exempt from wearing a mask what the medical reasons are, how can TfL possibly enforce this condtion of travel?
They do
not enforce it; around 50% of passengers wear them but in the evenings that drops to maybe 30% but it varies considerably by line, time of day and even the coach you are in.
No.
@trebor79 is right,
Your bog standard cloth face masks do two things, (although it is of course the wearer's duty to ensure that it fits as tightly as is comfortably possible) firstly they filter out droplets in the air (such as those from people who cough and sneeze), and they also filter out large airborne particles. It does not eliminate the risk of infection by a very long way, BUT it does reduce the risk to some extent. So you are automatically helping yourself, even by a small amount, by wearing one.
There is no real-world evidence of this and such masks are specifically sold on the basis they do not protect the wearer.
Secondly, and this is most important, it stops these things from getting OUT from you, and it is much much better at doing this. So other people wearing masks around you significantly reduces your risk of catching anything, not just covid. Therefore when you say:
This is also incorrect. They do not filter aerosols, which carry virus particles.
No; the other comment is right.
By not wearing a mask you are putting everyone else at risk,
That is absolutely not true. People who choose not to be vaccinated are putting themselves at risk; that's it.
if you have coronavirus but are asymptomatic (as is happening more often now due to the jabs etc) you are much much more likely to pass that on to someone else,
Do you have real world evidence of this? Either way a flimsy loose fitting mask will not make any difference to transmission.
I do
not agree that vaccines are increasing transmission but I think that is best discussed in a new thread; I will be happy to provide evidence disagreeing with you if you wish to create one.
maybe someone vulnerable, by not wearing a mask.
This is not true; wearing a flimsy mask does not protect anyone. Vulnerable people are still well protected by the vaccines. However a particularly vulnerable person could choose to wear a highly effective FFP3 mask (as correctly stated by
@trebor79) and then it makes no difference what other people do; the wearer is well protected.
Masks as a whole work best when everyone is wearing them, and this is why choosing not to wear one is not just an individual issue, as you are increasing the risk for everyone else.
This is untrue; see above. And not everyone is going to wear them, whether you like it or not.
This is very off topic and I'll get told off but it absolutely needs to be said. It seems to be a common misconception amongst many people and people are owed a full explanation of why it's important.
Unfortunately the misconception is on you.
I suggest you go and do some research on the effectiveness of masks: if you’re just wearing a cloth mask it has next to no effect. You need to be wearing FFP2/3 type (and wearing it correctly) for it to have any real effect and the vast majority of people who are still wearing masks aren’t.
That's right.
If it is that much of a risk to them, they should be wearing FFP2/3 type masks themselves. Are they?
Good question; if they are, then they are protected, regardless of what others do
You're starting from the premise that a loosely fitted piece of cloth made to no standard achieves anything. I don't believe that it does.
Vulnerable people can protect themselves by wearing a proper FFP3 mask if they feel it necessary.
That's correct.
Whether exempt, or just not wanting to wear a mask for any reason, people going into crowded places - like some shops and many tube trains - who don't wear a mask are putting some of their fellows at unnecessary additional risk. I
That's not true. Where I work, out of about 850 people, about 5 people choose to wear masks. The suggestion that nearly everyone is putting each other "at risk" is absurd.
have friends with medical vulnerabilities such that, if they were to be exposed to the virus, could be in extreme danger.
Presumably they have been vaccinated? The vaccines work really well even in the most vulnerable groups. However it is true the most vulnerable are not as well protected as everyone else, and therefore they may feel they require additional protection. Rather than demanding other people wear flimsy loose fitting masks which are ineffective, it would make much more sense for vulnerable people to wear highly effective FFP3 masks, if they wish.
While a potentially dangerous version of the virus (as the most common current one is) continues to be so widespread, it's unfair and extremely selfish to put people at unnecessary risk by not wearing a mask - unless one's own reason for not doing so is really serious and unavoidable.
It is not true to suggest that the Delta variant is "dangerous"; in fact the opposite is the case. The virus is evolving in exactly the expected way and the current iteration is extremely contagious and is actually out-competing other, potentially more "dangerous" variants.
It is also untrue to suggest that failing to wear a flimsy loose fitting mask increases the risk of transmission, or that it places people in danger.
I'm as sick of wearing a mask as anyone is, and I look forward to a time - as soon as possible - when the prevalence of the virus, and the danger it poses, are sufficiently reduced that such things as mask-wearing become more or less irrelevant.
For me, mask-wearing is an irrelevance now. I spend most working days encountering hundreds of unmasked people. If someone is vulnerable then it may be a sensible choice for them to wear a highly effective FFP3 mask.
(Though I suspect that, given the slowing of vaccine take-up, that time won't be as soon as I hope.)
The vaccine take-up is far higher than in the US but slower than other countries. This could be due to the poor messaging by those who claim that vaccinated people put others at risk, or that vaccinated people are at risk. The people who make such remarks are deeply irresponsible in my opinion. I find that most of the time people are downplaying the effectiveness of vaccines it is because they have a pro-mask agenda. This is disgraceful and is undermining confidence in our excellent vaccines.
Meanwhile, I accept the mask constraint as a way of putting people I encounter at less risk than if I didn't wear one. I don't understand how someone can not feel guilty about deliberately choosing to put other people at additional risk of serious illness or death.
I cannot understand your logic or feelings; I find your thoughts to be deeply offensive. But you are entitled to those thoughts, and I am entitled to my own view on your thoughts, which is in mutual disagreement.