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ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

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wobman

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So you're advocating pay cuts then?
I'm not advocating anything !. It's quite likely that a government pursuing nationalisation would have a wide range of solutions to consider. Some would probably involve rationalisation, economies, streamlining of functions etc etc.
It would certainly be an interesting period for the rail industry as a whole.
Do people actually realise how the railway works, staff tend to be very flexible if they can. If the cuts come in and deterioration of jobs / conditions, that good will soon disappears as does RDW etc
You would have the Sunday chaos every week in all areas of the railway.
 
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RailUK Forums

Facing Back

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You're not with the other guy. You're missing a few thousand self-indulgent posts merely restating your stance on these matters.
Your considered and eloquent posts, so full of nuance, are always a joy to read. On the above point however, we will have to agree to disagree.

No. Standard Abellio policy, we won't talk whilst you're taking action *shrug*.

Not exactly olive branch or customer friendly territory but there you go, it is how they choose to conduct their industrial relations.
Its quite a common negotiating position outside of the rail industry. Firms prefer the strong optics of "we won't negotiate with a gun to our heads" to the weak ones of union being able to claim "we forced them to the negotiating table". I understand the position from both sides but at the moment it would seem to make it harder for them to see whether there is any middle ground - even if they wanted to.

As far as I am aware the RMT has not stated that the strikes are "because of a breach of those terms". I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the union is seeking to get a permanent version of the allowance payable in the temporary agreement. That is different from claiming that the temporary agreement's stated exit conditions have not been met and thus the temporary agreement needs to be extended until those conditions are met.

The transport minister, Graeme Dey, has stated (as reported at https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...strikes-a-national-humiliation-labour-3374301) that the "arrangement, made between the RMT and ScotRail, provided an additional, time-limited enhancement for ticket examiners and conductors – largely an acknowledgment of the extra work existing staff were undertaking while ScotRail recruited and trained additional staff to minimise the requirement to work rest days. Now that there are 140 additional ticket examiners and conductors, the issue of excessive rest day working has been resolved. I understand why the unions and workers might want to make that additional allowance permanent, but it simply isn’t sustainable in the long term".
I hadn't seen the article which was interesting and seems to back up lot of what is being said here. I still believe from the RMT's rhetoric on "pay equality" that they are upset that drivers are still receiving the enhanced payments and their grades are not. I had assumed that in the dim and distant future when the drivers are up to strength and the enhanced payments cease for them, then of course the case for RMT grades to receive them would end.

However you could easily be right and the intent is to have the enhanced payments permanently - I hadn't considered that until now.
 
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wobman

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Yes you keep mentioning these words like "rationalisation" and "streamlining", I'm just stating what the reality of that would likely mean. You'd probably get more disruption if this ended up raising / improving some train crew salaries / T&Cs, yet lowering / removing others.

I believe the industry definitely needs to take a hard look at itself moving forward (proper 7-day week being & radical fares reform being just a couple), and some standardisation would be great, but the practicalities of doing that are much more complex then they may seem initially.
I agree with what you say, so many people attack traincrew on here but don't understand how complex the railway is.
So many tocs with different T&C's most tocs have various T&C's within the company.

To get in the changes many desire, there would need to be engagement of the people involved, see what is needed to get the end Goal of a more efficient railways that benefits the passengers.
 

greyman42

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If Transport Scotland really are happy just to sit back ( and it appears they are) then it's a staggeringly short-sighted view. I don't think anyone would disagree that the dispute must be doing considerable damage to Scotland's railways and also impacting much of the rest of the economy.
The SNP only have one agenda and as long as the dispute does not impact that, which at the moment it does not appear to be doing, then they will be quite happy to let the dispute roll on.
 

CEN60

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From an uninformed point of view the "government" is going to look unbelievably stupid given there is about to be a World Climate Summit in Glasgow and the attendees cant get a "green" electric train to the venue on a Sunday!!! (Not that any "world leader" would be allowed to - but the masses might) - how stupid does that make us look as a nation - I suspect the various Unions realise this - as mentioned above - a bit of a loaded gun to the head!!!
 

wobman

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The SNP only have one agenda and as long as the dispute does not impact that, which at the moment it does not appear to be doing, then they will be quite happy to let the dispute roll on.
What plans do the SNP have for ScotRail in an independent Scotland ? How is the funding worked out once the DFT involvement ceases ?
What about the non ScotRail tocs that run services in and out of an independent Scotland and how are these services funded ?

I do wonder if these issues have been discussed, the Sunday issues would be very insignificant in comparison.
 

Deltic1961

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I don't think the Scottish Government cares what anyone thinks. With another 4 years plus to push through anything they want with support of the Greens it's the citizens of Scotland that have a loaded gun pointed at their heads.
 

greyman42

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From an uninformed point of view the "government" is going to look unbelievably stupid given there is about to be a World Climate Summit in Glasgow and the attendees cant get a "green" electric train to the venue on a Sunday!!! (Not that any "world leader" would be allowed to - but the masses might) - how stupid does that make us look as a nation - I suspect the various Unions realise this - as mentioned above - a bit of a loaded gun to the head!!!
The fact that there are few trains on Sunday will not really be visible to the dignitaries. The massive fly tip under the M8 might have been so they have done something about that.
 

mcmad

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As far as I am aware the RMT has not stated that the strikes are "because of a breach of those terms". I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that the union is seeking to get a permanent version of the allowance payable in the temporary agreement. That is different from claiming that the temporary agreement's stated exit conditions have not been met and thus the temporary agreement needs to be extended until those conditions are met.

The transport minister, Graeme Dey, has stated (as reported at https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...strikes-a-national-humiliation-labour-3374301) that the "arrangement, made between the RMT and ScotRail, provided an additional, time-limited enhancement for ticket examiners and conductors – largely an acknowledgment of the extra work existing staff were undertaking while ScotRail recruited and trained additional staff to minimise the requirement to work rest days. Now that there are 140 additional ticket examiners and conductors, the issue of excessive rest day working has been resolved. I understand why the unions and workers might want to make that additional allowance permanent, but it simply isn’t sustainable in the long term".
The above is the management view as TS/ScotGov are, in practise, the management at this stage. What is the equivalent sound bite from the union side? The best I could find on the RMT website is that the dispute is about a "fight for pay equality and justice."
 

PaulMc7

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I'm not a big user of trains to be quite honest mainly as the bus is more frequent and cheaper for most journeys I make but at this point I'd honestly be shocked if we had a full compliment of Sunday trains again on a Sunday with Abellio in charge.

The government rightly want to keep costs down as much as possible after Abellio go, Abellio don't want to waste money knowing they're gone in a few months and RMT won't budge from their stance either. It's a solid stalemate between 3 stubborn parties and let's be realistic this government won't be under much pressure from the public as they're the best party by far in Scotland although I don't rate them highly.
 

snookertam

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The longer this dispute goes with no end in sight I’d be more and more concerned about the future of Sunday rail services in Scotland. I don’t think anyone in government or in ScotRail management will want to agree a 7 day working week arrangement and the Union approach of ‘they’ll need deep pockets’ won’t suffice in this scenario as government/management will know that they’re getting away with the lack of Sunday service whilst this dispute goes on. As noted above there will absolutely be cost savings through lack of train movements on Sundays as well.

I recall that it was only in the late 1990s that most routes in Scotland began getting a discernible Sunday service, with the Springburn branch and some stations on the Barrhead line only just getting Sunday services very recently. It used to be so quiet in terms of train movements that control staff used to take turns to make Sunday roast dinners on the day/back shift. I do begin to wonder if we might be heading back there.

I think those in management and the government will sooner break the back of the unions by destroying the current service, before they agree to resolving this dispute. The outcome of that will be less people using public transport, and especially the railway. It’s notable that the new Green Party ministers in government only have input on active travel (ie walking or cycling), and leaving aside the likely impact they would have on any topic, it shows that as far as tackling climate change is concerned (or at least being seen to do so, as that tends to be the priority), promoting public transport use doesn’t really get a look in. So I’m struggling to see anyone’s motivation to end this.
 

the sniper

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With a little blue sky thinking the railway could reorganise and redistribute to create flexible workforce solutions with modern economical factors and better workstream team leadership. With an upwardly mobile approach to internal promotion with more integrated vertical movement, the railway could incentivise and encourage employee engagement and increase staff retention.

You didn't say you were transferring to Lumo?! :lol:
 

alangla

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Hence Saturday currently being as bad as Sundays in some places - most days the M-F is being papered over with higher % of RDW. There's shortages everywhere.
It’s not working in Strathclyde land just now. Have a look at Journeycheck any morning of the week and there will be cancellations throughout the day on various routes due to “shortage of traincrew” or “train driver taken ill” - which 12 hours in advance says to me “we couldn’t find a spare” not “the driver is currently in an ambulance from the station”
This is both on guarded and driver only lines.
The service is heading for unusable in some areas. I can’t remember anything as bad as this since the driver RDW ban a few years ago.
 

Scotrail314209

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It’s not working in Strathclyde land just now. Have a look at Journeycheck any morning of the week and there will be cancellations throughout the day on various routes due to “shortage of traincrew” or “train driver taken ill” - which 12 hours in advance says to me “we couldn’t find a spare” not “the driver is currently in an ambulance from the station”
This is both on guarded and driver only lines.
The service is heading for unusable in some areas. I can’t remember anything as bad as this since the driver RDW ban a few years ago.
Yeah, the trains can be pretty scary at night, particularly the DOO routes as the ticket examiners don't patrol the trains after a certain time.

Since all the bars and clubs have reopened now, the trains can get pretty messy on Friday and Saturday nights like before, it's no wonder some of them may not want to work.
 

380101

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It’s not working in Strathclyde land just now. Have a look at Journeycheck any morning of the week and there will be cancellations throughout the day on various routes due to “shortage of traincrew” or “train driver taken ill” - which 12 hours in advance says to me “we couldn’t find a spare” not “the driver is currently in an ambulance from the station”
This is both on guarded and driver only lines.
The service is heading for unusable in some areas. I can’t remember anything as bad as this since the driver RDW ban a few years ago.

Could potentially be heading for a whole lot worse from next week. The current RDW agreement for drivers ends this weekend and so far there has been no movement on talks to extend it. Driver’s pay talks aren't making any progress either so unlikely the RDW agreement will be extended unless there is something spectacular pulled out the hat by Abellio before Saturday that is appealing enough to Aslef to recommend to their members.
 

PaulMc7

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I haven’t seen a TE for weeks and that’s travelling in the peaks…
I don't use the train much but the one I seen on a Saturday afternoon 2/3 weeks back on a train to Motherwell was the first I'd seen in 2 years. The closest stations to me barely ever have staff beyond just after lunchtime during the week either and on Saturdays the ticket offices tend to be closed all day.
 

Horizon22

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It’s not working in Strathclyde land just now. Have a look at Journeycheck any morning of the week and there will be cancellations throughout the day on various routes due to “shortage of traincrew” or “train driver taken ill” - which 12 hours in advance says to me “we couldn’t find a spare” not “the driver is currently in an ambulance from the station”
This is both on guarded and driver only lines.
The service is heading for unusable in some areas. I can’t remember anything as bad as this since the driver RDW ban a few years ago.

I imagine the dispute has obviously meant a loss of a lot of goodwill and lower levels of driver RDW in the weekday too.
 

Carlisle

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I doubt that the taxpayers who would have to foot the bill would agree that the *only* solution is to increase everyone's salary to match the highest!
Indeed, in the present climate, simply offering what’d amount to state hand outs to certain TOC employees would just tilt the sphere of industrial unrest towards those who’re ineligible & thousands of contractors whom the railway also relies on 24/7 nowadays.
Unless it was part of some grand plan for national contracts or bringing most activities back in house
 
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Class83

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Could potentially be heading for a whole lot worse from next week. The current RDW agreement for drivers ends this weekend and so far there has been no movement on talks to extend it. Driver’s pay talks aren't making any progress either so unlikely the RDW agreement will be extended unless there is something spectacular pulled out the hat by Abellio before Saturday that is appealing enough to Aslef to recommend to their members.
Has the driver recruitment hit the threshold to end their additional payments, or are there still more needed?
 

the sniper

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Has the driver recruitment hit the threshold to end their additional payments, or are there still more needed?

Do we know if the agreement is based upon those recruited or the number who have become productive?
 

Starmill

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So you're advocating pay cuts then?
Real terms pay cuts for most public sector workers have been government policy for 11 1/2 years, and yet the same party of government keeps getting elected and keeps doing it again.

I find that repellent, just as I find much government policy on railways repellent, but also, if it's government policy and people are voting for it in their millions, it's essentially demanded of me that I let it go. There are alternatives of course, but they involve the full force of the state and the criminal law.
 

320320

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Do we know if the agreement is based upon those recruited or the number who have become productive?

We've been paid that enhancement for the past 4 or 5 years and I dont remember it being based on recruitment.

As far as I remember it was paid because it was becoming more difficult to get people to cover RDW for standard time.

Edited to add it started off at £275 and gradually increased to £375 over the period it’s been paid.
 

Robertj21a

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Real terms pay cuts for most public sector workers have been government policy for 11 1/2 years, and yet the same party of government keeps getting elected and keeps doing it again.

I find that repellent, just as I find much government policy on railways repellent, but also, if it's government policy and people are voting for it in their millions, it's essentially demanded of me that I let it go. There are alternatives of course, but they involve the full force of the state and the criminal law.
As you say, people are voting for it in their millions. So, presumably, a good many more agree with the policy than disagree!
I'm not sure that government policy regarding the railways has changed very significantly in the past, say, 25-30 years?
 

O L Leigh

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As you say, people are voting for it in their millions. So, presumably, a good many more agree with the policy than disagree!

I think it’s more accurate to say that it doesn’t enter into the thinking of millions when they decide what they’re going to do when they enter the voting booth, and therefore should not be taken as an indication of the view of the voting majority.
 

the sniper

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We've been paid that enhancement for the past 4 or 5 years and I dont remember it being based on recruitment.

As far as I remember it was paid because it was becoming more difficult to get people to cover RDW for standard time.

That makes sense, thanks.
 

Starmill

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As you say, people are voting for it in their millions. So, presumably, a good many more agree with the policy than disagree!
I'm not sure that government policy regarding the railways has changed very significantly in the past, say, 25-30 years?
Initially the policy objective behind privatisation was that ticket prices would be reduced in real terms as the years went by - i.e. that every year the industry would produce more from less, and pass on a proportion of the gains to end consumers. Although it wouldn't necessarily be my favoured approach in the detail, I would have been satisfied with that personally. While scale rises significantly over 25 years it ought not to be difficult to have unit cost fall. Instead, real prices have rocketed while scale grew.

Nowadays, government insists that real prices rise faster and faster, but to support a service which is costing more and more, apparently without questioning why.

and therefore should not be taken as an indication of the view of the voting majority.
So why is the Conservative party still so popular? It has been many years after all.
 

43066

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We've been paid that enhancement for the past 4 or 5 years and I dont remember it being based on recruitment.

As far as I remember it was paid because it was becoming more difficult to get people to cover RDW for standard time.

Edited to add it started off at £275 and gradually increased to £375 over the period it’s been paid.

In which case logically either it continues to be paid, or it’s likely that drivers might not consider it worth their while to do overtime, with the inevitable impact
on the service…
 

Horizon22

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Real terms pay cuts for most public sector workers have been government policy for 11 1/2 years, and yet the same party of government keeps getting elected and keeps doing it again.

I find that repellent, just as I find much government policy on railways repellent, but also, if it's government policy and people are voting for it in their millions, it's essentially demanded of me that I let it go. There are alternatives of course, but they involve the full force of the state and the criminal law.

There's a difference between real term pay cuts (i.e your salary doesn't go up with inflation) and what was earlier suggested with standardising contracts which would lead to actual (and obviously real-term) pay cuts for some crew.
 
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