Help please - Out of Court Settlement letter

[Kato]

We are at a loss and hope someone can help.

Our daughter recently travelled from our local station to Liverpool.

The local station ticket office was closed (this is not being disputed).

When she arrived at her destination she told barrier staff that she needed to buy her ticket and they directed her through the barrier to the ticket office. There was a long queue so she went to the ticket machine.

She had not used the ticket machine before and pressed the return ticket instead of a single. It cost £3.80 and we still have the ticket.
She was then approached by an undercover Inspector who issued her with a notice which says she was unable to provide a valid ticket when requested and that she may not have had the means to pay (she did, as she'd bought a ticket). She explained that she HAD bought a ticket but pressed the wrong button. The inspector saw her buy the ticket.

The inspector said she could use the return but she said she couldn't because trains would not be running (she was going to a nightclub).

This happened a few weeks ago, 28 August 2021.

She received an Out of Court Settlement letter from Merseyrail Prosecutions on 31 August offering the opportunity to pay £125 within 14 days. There was no mention of appealing it.

She emailed Merseyrail Enforcement to explain her genuine mistake and that she had every intention of paying.
They responded by saying their policy had been followed.

So she then (mistakenly we now know) wrote to Penalty Services explaining the situation and appealing the fine. They wrote back on 23 September to explain it was a Prosecution Notice and outside their jurisdiction.

All this time we thought we were under the 21 days notice we had seen on a Merseyrail link for paying a Penalty Fare Notice.

I know the original Settlement letter said payment must be made within 14 days, but I went on a wild goose chase because they didn't say in their letter that we could not appeal.

So, do we wait for the Summons and explain in Court or is there any other way to appeal or pay the original £125 fine, which she will find difficult as she's just started University but will be preferable to facing Court proceedings.

Any advice appreciated, I can upload any correspondence needed or explain anything I may have missed out. Many thanks.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful if you post copies of the letters received, with personal details redacted. This will help forum members to be able to give the best advice.

 

[Haywain]

Clearly a penalty fare has not been issued, so paying the £125 now would be the quickest way of making this go away.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be helpful to know the origin station and whether there were any ticket purchasing facilities at all (sometimes there are ticket machines outside the ticket office).

I'm not overly familiar with Merseyrail's ticket machines and their user interface - perhaps another poster could explain this? Is the suggestion that she purchased a ticket from Liverpool to X instead of X to Liverpool?

Ultimately, as far as Merseyrail are concerned, their RPI witnessed the OP's daughter purchase the incorrect ticket, although it is not clear whether this amounts to intent.

 

[Kato]

Clearly a penalty fare has not been issued, so paying the £125 now would be the quickest way of making this go away.

I was wondering if that was possible after the 14 day deadline had passed - which began the day after the incident and which we have now missed (I thought we could appeal to Penalty Services so spent time contacting them).

 

[furlong]

Details do matter - does she still have the ticket? Purchasing a return ticket in the wrong direction and discarding the outward portion and handing over the return portion for the journey just completed would have been entirely correct. Speculation about "but you might have later used the outward" is of no relevance unless that event actually occurred (or an intention to do that was admitted after being cautioned).

 

[Kato]

Details do matter - does she still have the ticket? Purchasing a return ticket in the wrong direction and discarding the outward portion and handing over the return portion for the journey just completed would have been entirely correct. Speculation about "but you might have later used the outward" is of no relevance unless that event actually occurred (or an intention to do that was admitted after being cautioned).

Thank you. Yes she does have the ticket, I am just going to post a copy above, together with the other documents etc.

 

[furlong]

Is that what happened? Was the ticket purchased in the wrong direction? If so, a return would have been valid as there is never any obligation to use the whole of a ticket. In that situation the inspector would simply have accepted both portions of the ticket and either retained them both or marked both as used. What you cannot do is use the outward portion after the return portion - as soon as you start to use the return portion, the outward portion becomes invalid. To prosecute, the company would need to identify a point in time at which her actions indicated she didn't intend to pay for the journey already made.

So I'm afraid something in this story doesn't add up - on the face of the information here, there'd be no case to answer, so perhaps there is some other crucial detail that has been omitted. Or perhaps the first response she sent back to them provided them with an admission of guilt.

 

[Kato]

Welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful if you post copies of the letters received, with personal details redacted. This will help forum members to be able to give the best advice.

Thank you so much for adding me.

I am attaching the documents here, hope that's the right place, please let me know if not.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The pic of the ticket seems not to be a return, so wouldn't have covered the journey from Aigburth into Liverpool.

 

[Dai Corner]

She had not used the ticket machine before and pressed the return ticket instead of a single. It cost £3.80 and we still have the ticket.

The image you posted is of a single from Liverpool Stations to Aigburth at £3.60?

 

[Gonzoiku]

"When she arrived at her destination she told barrier staff that she needed to buy her ticket and they directed her through the barrier to the ticket office. There was a long queue so she went to the ticket machine.

She had not used the ticket machine before and pressed the return ticket instead of a single. It cost £3.80 and we still have the ticket."

That is the "other half", no?

GZ

 

[furlong]

Ah, that is a single ticket in the wrong direction - not a return. - and 3.60 not 3.80. But for the sake of 20p this is a bit harsh. Was the ticket machine capable of selling a single in the other direction? Some machines only sell tickets for journeys beginning at that station. A prosecution would not be straightforward - the company needing to prove beyond reasonable doubt this was deliberate and not a mistake, in circumstances in which they have not actually lost any money.

 

[gray1404]

The OP daughter was never provided with an opportunity to purchase by Merseyrail.

 

[Kato]

Is that what happened? Was the ticket purchased in the wrong direction? If so, a return would have been valid as there is never any obligation to use the whole of a ticket. In that situation the inspector would simply have accepted both portions of the ticket and either retained them both or marked both as used. What you cannot do is use the outward portion after the return portion - as soon as you start to use the return portion, the outward portion becomes invalid. To prosecute, the company would need to identify a point in time at which her actions indicated she didn't intend to pay for the journey already made.

So I'm afraid something in this story doesn't add up - on the face of the information here, there'd be no case to answer, so perhaps there is some other crucial detail that has been omitted. Or perhaps the first response she sent back to them provided them with an admission of guilt.

Thanks for your reply.
I have posted all the paperwork above in my reply to Hadders.

She travelled from a station with no ticket issuing facilities and paid at her destination. Unfortunately she pressed Aigburth (where she'd travelled from) and then the Return button instead of single.
It was the first time she had used the ticket machine, but the Inspector insisted she had not paid for her journey and could have used the return portion.
Hopefully the documents I've shared will explain better.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Point is that the OP's daughter appears not to have bought a return ticket. Might seem unfair, but technically what Merseyrail assert in their letter is correct. Harsh in the extreme though, considering that the unpaid fare is 20p. Easy to say in hindsight, but the OP's daughter should perhaps have stayed in the ticket office queue.

Anyone got any views as to how the matter may perhaps be mitigated / best resolved at this current stage?

 

[furlong]

I also feel obliged to point out that the letter offering a settlement omits crucial words:

Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 2 on the standard scale.

That's 3 options with "or" in between before the conviction kicks in.

If she gave her name and address, and had already offered to pay her fare (and believed she had), you might point that out - in other words there might not be much point in paying to discharge any liability for 5(1). You could ask a local solicitor (who might offer a free initial consultation) to check this properly (instead of relying on unknown people on the internet).

 

[Kato]

Welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful if you post copies of the letters received, with personal details redacted. This will help forum members to be able to give the best advice.

Thank you so much.

I am attaching the documents here, hope that's the right place, please let me know if not.

Welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful if you post copies of the letters received, with personal details redacted. This will help forum members to be able to give the best advice.

It would be helpful to know the origin station and whether there were any ticket purchasing facilities at all (sometimes there are ticket machines outside the ticket office).

I'm not overly familiar with Merseyrail's ticket machines and their user interface - perhaps another poster could explain this? Is the suggestion that she purchased a ticket from Liverpool to X instead of X to Liverpool?

Ultimately, as far as Merseyrail are concerned, their RPI witnessed the OP's daughter purchase the incorrect ticket, although it is not clear whether this amounts to intent.

Thanks for your reply. I have shared documents above, I hope they are visible.

Point is that the OP's daughter appears not to have bought a return ticket. Might seem unfair, but technically what Merseyrail assert in their letter is correct. Harsh in the extreme though, considering that the unpaid fare is 20p. Easy to say in hindsight, but the OP's daughter should perhaps have stayed in the ticket office queue.

Anyone got any views as to how the matter may perhaps be mitigated / best resolved at this current stage?

Hi, thanks for replying.

She did buy a return ticket but only needed a single when she arrived at her destination.

Her mistake seems to have been buying a return from her destination instead of a retrospective single from her originating, home station (where no tickets were available).

I do appreciate all the advice.

Clearly a penalty fare has not been issued, so paying the £125 now would be the quickest way of making this go away.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP daughter was never provided with an opportunity to purchase by Merseyrail.

Is it even possible to purchase a ticket from an origin other than the location the machine is at? For example, at Liverpool Central, is it possible to get the machine to sell you an Aigburth to Liverpool Central Single?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Kato, the pic you have posted upthread in post #9 is clearly that of a single ticket, and in the wrong direction of travel, can't see any evidence of a return having been purchased.

Possibly a mistake made, but gives the impression of only a ticket having been bought for use on the homeward journey later, all to save a miserly 20p.

 

[Dai Corner]

@Kato, the pic you have posted upthread in post #9 is clearly that of a single ticket, and in the wrong direction of travel, can't see any evidence of a return having been purchased.

Indeed.

I can quite see how the revenue inspector thought she had purchased her ticket home with the intent of avoiding paying her fare to Liverpool if the ticket pictured is that which was presented to him.

Return tickets are issued in two parts, marked 'Outward' and 'Return' in the top right hand corner.

 

[furlong]

(Notice how they left the word "either" in their incomplete characterisation of 5(1) in the settlement offer letter - this might even be considered malpractice or worse.)

the intent of avoiding paying her fare

But that is not the accusation here, which is basically not having the right ticket and refusing to buy the correct one and refusing to give name and address.

 

[Kato]

The image you posted is of a single from Liverpool Stations to Aigburth at £3.60?

Apologies, you're correct. I'm jumping in to help her and thought she'd bought a return.

So she has purchased a ticket in the wrong direction and the machine could not issue the one that she needed, as explained in Merseyrail's response.

As someone else has pointed out she should have stood in the queue and probably would have done had she known the ticket could not issue the correct ticket.

I'm more at a loss than ever!

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail failed to provide an opportunity to purchase at the starting station. Their ticket machines do not allow purchase from a different origin. Therefore at the point the daughter was stopped Merseyrail was still yet to provide an opportunity to purchase.

 

[Kato]

Indeed.

I can quite see how the revenue inspector thought she had purchased her ticket home with the intent of avoiding paying her fare to Liverpool if the ticket pictured is that which was presented to him.

Return tickets are issued in two parts, marked 'Outward' and 'Return' in the top right hand corner.

Yes, apologies, I've completely missed that and thought she'd bought a return ticket, not a ticket to return home.

So she has bought a ticket in the wrong direction, apparently the machine could not issue the ticket she needed.

Is there a way forward to try and settle this before it reaches Court, I'm more lost than ever.

 

[furlong]

Yes, apologies, I've completely missed that and thought she'd bought a return ticket, not a ticket to return home.

So she has bought a ticket in the wrong direction, apparently the machine could not issue the ticket she needed.

Is there a way forward to try and settle this before it reaches Court, I'm more lost than ever.

Again, did she give her name and address as soon as she was asked? On the basis of what's been posted here, I think she is being offered a settlement on the basis that she was asked for this but refused (at least initially, even if she provided it later).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail failed to provide an opportunity to purchase at the starting station. Their ticket machines do not allow purchase from a different origin. Therefore at the point the daughter was stopped Merseyrail was still yet to provide an opportunity to purchase.

She was instructed to go to the ticket office and purchase there, and didn't? Yes, there was a queue, but this is not, unfortunately, a valid excuse.

Merseyrail's TVMs are standard Scheidt & Bachmann ones, but I don't think remote issue is enabled.

 

[Kato]

Merseyrail failed to provide an opportunity to purchase at the starting station. Their ticket machines do not allow purchase from a different origin. Therefore at the point the daughter was stopped Merseyrail was still yet to provide an opportunity to purchase.

Maybe they would argue she should have stayed in the queue to speak to staff, but she thought the ticket machine would be quicker.

Again, did she give her name and address as soon as she was asked? On the basis of what's been posted here, I think she is being offered a settlement on the basis that she was asked for this but refused (at least initially, even if she provided it later).

Yes, she gave her name and address and received the letter from Merseyrail two days later.

 

[Darandio]

Merseyrail failed to provide an opportunity to purchase at the starting station. Their ticket machines do not allow purchase from a different origin. Therefore at the point the daughter was stopped Merseyrail was still yet to provide an opportunity to purchase.

There was an opportunity at the ticket office, she queued for it but decided the queue was too long and didn't take that opportunity. Suggesting they didn't provide an opportunity is completely wrong.

 

[Kato]

Again, did she give her name and address as soon as she was asked? On the basis of what's been posted here, I think she is being offered a settlement on the basis that she was asked for this but refused (at least initially, even if she provided it later).

Yes, she gave her name and address and received the letter from Merseyrail two days later.

Maybe they would argue she should have stayed in the queue to speak to staff, but she thought the ticket machine would be quicker.


Yes, she gave her name and address and received the letter from Merseyrail two days later.

Is it even possible to purchase a ticket from an origin other than the location the machine is at? For example, at Liverpool Central, is it possible to get the machine to sell you an Aigburth to Liverpool Central Single?

The machine at Central apparently can't issue Aigburth-Liverpool but there is a ticket office. She said the queue was very long at the office so went to pay at the ticket machine.

@Kato, the pic you have posted upthread in post #9 is clearly that of a single ticket, and in the wrong direction of travel, can't see any evidence of a return having been purchased.

Possibly a mistake made, but gives the impression of only a ticket having been bought for use on the homeward journey later, all to save a miserly 20p.

Yes, my misunderstanding.
She didn't need a return, she needed a single from Aigburth to Liverpool but bought one in the wrong direction. The machine doesn't issue those tickets so she should have stayed in the queue to buy one from staff.
Which she would have done if she had known she couldn't use the machine.