ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Darandio]

Mate, there’s plenty of people on this thread that would have us on zero hour contracts if they could get away with it.
It’s weird behaviour and comes across as plain old jealousy from people that can’t get a job on the railway.

Weekly RailUK bingo card complete.

 

[maradona10]

As much as people will experience heated emotions in conversations like this, unfortunately this is the real truth:

Probably everyone in the country would love a 4-5% pay increase, and I would be considerably happier myself if nearly all workers got one. However, what Bald Rick says is the simple truth now, regardless of what anyone might think about how they personally are exceptional to that, or that there's no shortage of resources and the fat cats in Abellio (or whoever) are keeping it all for themselves.

Are you an economist or in any way privy to the cash flow situation at ScotRail? Do you know what their scope for payrises are or are you just taking their word on it that there’s no money for payrises and that’s that? The government always somehow manage to find money for whatever suits and whenever suits, as has always been the case. There’s been borrowing galore during the past 2 years for whatever is deemed necessary. This is a matter of choice, not necessity.

The revenue being down spiel wears thin when staff see revenue walk out the door every single day with the bare minimum incorporated to maximise revenue.

 

[Starmill]

Are you an economist or in any way privy to the cash flow situation at ScotRail? Do you know what their scope for payrises are or are you just taking their word on it that there’s no money for payrises and that’s that? The government always somehow manage to find money for whatever suits and whenever suits, as has always been the case. There’s been borrowing galore during the past 2 years for whatever is deemed necessary. This is a matter of choice, not necessity.

It is a matter of choice not to borrow the money and spend it, yes. However that choice is entirely removed from anyone in Scotland really (unless they become an independent county, although I'm keen to avoid opening that can of words here). So the simple set of choices is how to allocate limited resources in the most effective way. What Bald Rick says is unquestionably correct. I'm not sure I like it any more than you do to be honest but there it is. If it were up to me I'd just borrow the money and spend it. But that would be tripling or quadrupling public borrowing, although I'd still do it.

 

[maradona10]

It is a matter of choice not to borrow the money and spend it, yes. However that choice is entirely removed from anyone in Scotland really (unless they become an independent county, although I'm keen to avoid opening that can of words here). So the simple set of choices is how to allocate limited resources in the most effective way. What Bald Rick says is unquestionably correct. I'm not sure I like it any more than you do to be honest but there it is. If it were up to me I'd just borrow the money and spend it. But that would be tripling or quadrupling public borrowing, although I'd still do it.

I’ll take that as a no then, and that you’re not really in a position to say with any confidence what their financial scope is. You don’t seem to know what the scope is for payrises but seem intent on arguing that whatever it is, staff at ScotRail certainly shouldn’t be getting payrises, is that it?

I asked earlier, at what point is it ok for ScotRail staff to start fighting paycuts, in your view?

 

[Starmill]

I’ll take that as a no then, and that you’re not really in a position to say with any confidence what their financial scope is. You don’t seem to know what the scope is for payrises but seem intent on arguing that whatever it is, staff at ScotRail certainly shouldn’t be getting payrises, is that it?

I asked earlier, at what point is it ok for ScotRail staff to start fighting paycuts, in your view?

The information is publicly available about the opex budget. The information about the revenue position is less available but I am very conscious of how bad it really is. Bald Rick is most definitely in a position to describe the financial scope for new spending, and it's absolutely not good. There is an unquestionable need to reduce costs. A small real terms pay cut year on year is a reasonable and sensible way to find part of that saving, unless someone can convince the government to put several billions of pounds more into the railway across the UK, every year, for the foreseeable future, by whatever means. The alternative is cutting more and more services and more and more staff.

 

[maradona10]

The information is publicly available about the opex budget. The information about the revenue position is less available but I am very conscious of how bad it really is. Bald Rick is most definitely in a position to describe the financial scope for new spending, and it's absolutely not good. There is an unquestionable need to reduce costs. A small real terms pay cut year on year is a reasonable and sensible way to find part of that saving, unless someone can convince the government to put several billions of pounds more into the railway across the UK, every year, for the foreseeable future, by whatever means. The alternative is cutting more and more services and more and more staff.

A small terms pay cut year on year until when exactly? When is it ok for ScotRail staff to fight against paycuts, in your view?

The thread it seemed to me was about ScotRail industrial action so when in your view as someone outwith ScotRail, (maybe outwith Scotland too?) is it fine for ScotRail staff to start fighting paycuts?

 

[320320]

Weekly RailUK bingo card complete.

This is only said so often because it’strue.

The information is publicly available about the opex budget. The information about the revenue position is less available but I am very conscious of how bad it really is. Bald Rick is most definitely in a position to describe the financial scope for new spending, and it's absolutely not good. There is an unquestionable need to reduce costs. A small real terms pay cut year on year is a reasonable and sensible way to find part of that saving, unless someone can convince the government to put several billions of pounds more into the railway across the UK, every year, for the foreseeable future, by whatever means. The alternative is cutting more and more services and more and more staff.

There are plenty of services that could be cut and no one would notice the difference, especially some of the night time services that are either empty or acting as a shuttle for non paying reprobates.

Staff numbers could easily be reduced by natural wastage or voluntary redundancies and putting a freeze on recruitment rather than paying staff less to fund a bloated service that isn’t required.

 

[Starmill]

A small terms pay cut year on year until when exactly? When is it ok for ScotRail staff to fight against paycuts, in your view?

The thread it seemed to me was about ScotRail industrial action so when in your view as someone outwith ScotRail, (maybe outwith Scotland too?) is it fine for ScotRail staff to start fighting paycuts?

Until the point at which the business has returned to consistent growth, or the government has changed and will pay higher salaries, accepting that some people might choose to leave the industry in that time. Alternatively, until the point at which there's a restructuring which returns the market to the point where it needs lots of new entrants again but can't attract them at prevailing rates. In other words all of the normal economic forces that usually result in pay rises.

 

[XAM2175]

Mate, there’s plenty of people on this thread that would have us on zero hour contracts if they could get away with it.

I've known quite a number of people with stunning victim mentalities but this, by far and away, takes not just the cake but the entire bakery with it.

 

[maradona10]

Until the point at which the business has returned to consistent growth, or the government has changed and will pay higher salaries, accepting that some people might choose to leave the industry in that time. Alternatively, until the point at which there's a restructuring which returns the market to the point where it needs lots of new entrants again but can't attract them at prevailing rates. In other words all of the normal economic forces that usually result in pay rises.

We (ScotRail staff who have chosen industrial action) differ quite a bit in mindset and that’s ok

 

[Starmill]

We (ScotRail staff who have chosen industrial action) differ quite a bit in mindset and that’s ok

It's not for me to comment on what anyone does or doesn't do at work. Management of public money however is. For the moment industrial action is pretty mutually convenient - the staff obviously don't want to work and the government are obviously keen to avoid paying for it. It's not a particularly honourable way of running a public service mind, but then it's not clear how honourable the UK or Scottish Governments are generally anyway.

 

[maradona10]

It's not for me to comment on what anyone does or doesn't do at work. Management of public money however is. For the moment industrial action is pretty mutually convenient - the staff obviously don't want to work and the government are obviously keen to avoid paying for it. It's not a particularly honourable way of running a public service mind, but then it's not clear how honourable the UK or Scottish Governments are generally anyway.

Most of the staff (majority that I know) do want to work and want industrial action to end as soon as possible. Most staff are already down a considerable amount in wages since March when it began. It’s a rotten deal for passengers who have more or less had no Sunday service for months. That’s a scandal.

 

[Starmill]

Most of the staff (majority that I know) do want to work and want industrial action to end as soon as possible. Most staff are already down a considerable amount in wages since March when it began.

That's of course quite up to them to change if that's true.

 

[maradona10]

Fair deal is all they’re after. It’s gone on far too long already and created a toxic atmosphere in the workplace.

 

[Starmill]

Fair deal is all they’re after. It’s gone on far too long already and created a toxic atmosphere in the workplace.

Is it really as bad as that? Must've been loads of people who've already resigned then, and hundreds more handing in their notice?

That's certainly what's happened in other sectors where workers have been being treated like scum, such as care, hospitality, delivery couriering and professional driving.

 

[maradona10]

Is it really as bad as that? Must've been loads of people who've already resigned then, and hundreds more handing in their notice?

That's certainly what's happened in other sectors where workers have been being treated like scum, such as care, hospitality, delivery couriering and professional driving.

Aye you can take it from me seeing as I work there and you don’t have a clue what it’s like to work there

 

[Starmill]

Aye you can take it from me seeing as I work there and you don’t have a clue what it’s like to work there

Why on earth would I know intimate details about somewhere where I don't work? You're certainly not making it out to be a very good place to work however by your descriptions of it as "toxic" so maybe I ought count myself lucky?

 

[maradona10]

Why on earth would I know intimate details about somewhere where I don't work? You're certainly not making it out to be a very good place to work however by your descriptions of it as "toxic" so maybe I ought count myself lucky?

Exactly, you don’t know the details yet you seem to be very eager to say ScotRail workers ought to accept paycuts year on year. It’s interesting, that. It’s also interesting that when someone who actually works there offers insight on what it’s like to work there and why workers feel as they do you resort to sarcasm mockery by suggesting it can’t be that bad because hundreds aren’t handing in their resignation.

I think I’ve heard all I need to hear.

 

[Starmill]

Exactly, you don’t know the details yet you seem to be very eager to say ScotRail workers ought to accept paycuts year on year. It’s interesting, that.

What I actually said was that pay increases should be affordable, and at the moment they're not... unless you're willing to fundamentally change the rules of the game - although changing the rules by increasing public borrowing to give every public sector worker a raise doesn't appear to be generating many supportive comments here! Clearly therefore it's beyond a doubt that no pay increase is affordable, and Bald Rick went further than that and pointed out that any pay increases would have ultimately to be funded by net job losses. I can assure you that Bald Rick is dead right on this one, and unfortunately as bitter as it is that's the way it is going to end.

 

[Watershed]

Fundamentally, you can't have your cake and eat it. The job security of being in the public sector (as the franchised TOCs have been, at least since the pandemic) comes with caveats - most notably, significant pay restraint when government finances are tight. You don't exactly see civil servants getting pay increases at the moment.

Sadly, a lot of people have unrealistic expectations from previous generous pay deals when the industry was in a better financial position, and when it was not under the current level of scrutiny by the government.

It's telling how the Scottish Government hasn't felt any pressure to agree to the RMT's demands, despite more than 7 months of industrial action. That should be a rather large clue as to where this is heading.

 

[Goldfish62]

What I actually said was that pay increases should be affordable, and at the moment they're not... unless you're willing to fundamentally change the rules of the game - although changing the rules by increasing public borrowing to give every public sector worker a raise doesn't appear to be generating many supportive comments here! Clearly therefore it's beyond a doubt that no pay increase is affordable, and Bald Rick went further than that and pointed out that any pay increases would have ultimately to be funded by net job losses. I can assure you that Bald Rick is dead right on this one, and unfortunately as bitter as it is that's the way it is going to end.

Job losses, if they were purely through voluntary severance would probably suit a lot of existing staff very nicely.

There are of course a couple of other ways of funding pay rises for railway staff:
1. Cutting other public services such as health, social care and education to fund it.
2. Increase general taxation.

 

[43066]

I've known quite a number of people with stunning victim mentalities but this, by far and away, takes not just the cake but the entire bakery with it.

It’s absolutely true. The people arguing against pay rises are disingenuously using Covid as an excuse. Those same posters were also arguing against them during the period of record passenger growth!

 

[43066]

Job losses, if they were purely through voluntary severance would probably suit a lot of existing staff very nicely.

That’s absolutely correct. Of course the voluntary severance package won’t be offered to those staff who the industry is already short of (a lot of drivers would certainly jump at it!). Hopefully job losses through ticket office closures can be dealt with on a voluntary basis.

 

[Starmill]

Sadly, a lot of people have unrealistic expectations from previous generous pay deals when the industry was in a better financial position, and when it was not under the current level of scrutiny by the government.

Indeed. There is a strong justification in most businesses that when operations are expanding, revenue is growing and profitability is at least on target, the workers should share in the success of that, which is of course not an option available for civil service workers. There's also a strong justification in that the less competitive cash and equivalents rewards packages on offer to the civil service should be made up for by a much higher degree of security to economic shocks. And in general that's the way it has been.

Job losses, if they were purely through voluntary severance would probably suit a lot of existing staff very nicely.

There are of course a couple of other ways of funding pay rises for railway staff:
1. Cutting other public services such as health, social care and education to fund it.
2. Increase general taxation.

Quite right yes.

 

[snookertam]

It’s absolutely true. The people arguing against pay rises are disingenuously using Covid as an excuse. Those same posters were also arguing against them during the period of record passenger growth!

Quelle surprise!

 

[Deltic1961]

I think I’ve heard all I need to hear.

The sort of person who blocks you on Twitter when they start to lose an argument.

 

[Starmill]

The sort of person who blocks you on Twitter when they start to lose an argument.

Similar to the sort of people who ignore the point again and again, but default to "you're just jealous that I'm paid more than you / my job is better than yours" despite having absolutely no idea what you do!

 

[ComUtoR]

The entire railway needs to address the issue of overtime altogether. This is the core reason for this stand-off between staff/company. I am continually amazed that people will ignore the core issues and simply take one side or the other.

For the side arguement of pay increases and where that funding comes from. I also believe that people are ignoring the underlying causes and would would happen in reality. There is no money but the railway does need to make gains and move forward. Constantly cutting isn't the answer and never will be. It is a short term gain for long term detriment.

 

[6Z09]

Many sectors within the rail industry have dealt with seven day rosters many years ago!
The nettle has never been grasped by Scotrail management in its various guises over the years, instead applying a time limited sticking plaster.
Staff are not going to give up Sundays for no reward, so the dispute is perfectly valid.
Some on here are spouting anti worker idealoligic Tory nonsense!
And yes, the workplace does border on toxic after long running disputes such as are currently happening at Scotrail and Caledonian Sleeper.
That doesn't mean we should all bow to management dictate!
The rail industry has a long tradition of strong Union membership and long may it continue, now more than ever rail workers need to defend long fought for conditions of service.

 

[Starmill]

Staff are not going to give up Sundays for no reward, so the dispute is perfectly valid.

There doesn't appear to be any actual suggestion that there are contract changes regarding Sundays being made of course, regardless of whether you view them as a good or a bad thing.