ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Bow Fell]

We seems to do this discussion about T&C’s, overtime, Sunday working on a daily basis on the forum. It’s been done to death. There’s blame on both sides, don’t get me wrong, but something needs to give.

As a railway worker and a railway user, the Sunday service where I travel for leisure, is not great, but until the problem of Sunday working is ironed out, things aren’t going to change.

Similarly, we have been so, so lucky during the pandemic to see any impact on our working lives. Am I bothered about a payrise? As it stands, no. I don’t think it’s called for in the current circumstances.

We’ve seen it time and again, Rest Day working agreements for example, as soon as they lapse, there’s cancellations galore, it doesn’t take a genius to see why!

The railway runs on overtime, and despite reduced services it’s still running on overtime, more than ever!

Theres no winners so far, in the Scotrail dispute, the staff, the passengers, it’s a shame.

An important question, before the dispute, did Scotrail, ever have a problem covering Sunday jobs? Where there widespread cancellations like we see in other places. If the answer is no, then it’s a case of, well it was never broken, so why fix it?

 

[380101]

An important question, before the dispute, did Scotrail, ever have a problem covering Sunday jobs? Where there widespread cancellations like we see in other places. If the answer is no, then it’s a case of, well it was never broken, so why fix it?

An important point to make, and one that seems to be ignored regularly in this thread, is that the current dispute has absolutely nothing to do with working Sunday shifts. The additional payment for Sunday working is still paid to all grades.

The dispute is solely to do with the removal of enhanced overtime payments for working rest days Monday to Saturday. The only reason the action is taking place on a Sunday is because it has no effect on the base salary of staff involved in the dispute. This means that the action could continue for a long time yet!

There was never much of a problem covering Sunday turns prior to the dispute beginning.

 

[greyman42]

Theres no winners so far, in the Scotrail dispute, the staff, the passengers, it’s a shame.

Transport Scotland, the RMT and the staff all seem happy with the present situation so it is only the passengers who are loosing out.

 

[Deltic1961]

If overtime means that Sunday services cost far more to operate than the revenue coming in then just don't operate them. Same as why trains don't run overnight.

 

[43066]

If overtime means that Sunday services cost far more to operate than the revenue coming in then just don't operate them. Same as why trains don't run overnight.

Still completely missing the point that many rail services have always operated at a loss. It’s a public service, not necessarily expected to turn a profit. And some trains do run overnight!

 

[Starmill]

If overtime means that Sunday services cost far more to operate than the revenue coming in then just don't operate them. Same as why trains don't run overnight.

That appears to be essentially what's happening...

 

[Deltic1961]

It’s a public service, not necessarily expected to turn a profit. And some trains do run overnight!

Other public services eg. 24 hour care wardens, public toilets, libraries all slashed while the rail system merrily continues on it's way.

If you're referring to the Caledonian Sleeper than I'm sure we're all aware of the state of that!

 

[43066]

Other public services eg. 24 hour care wardens, public toilets, libraries all slashed while the rail system merrily continues on it's way.

Are you saying you’re in favour of public services being slashed, then?!

Your argument appears to be “other things have been cut, so should the railway”. That seems a bizarre position for someone posting on a railway enthusiast website to adopt. Thankfully the government clearly doesn’t agree with you, and neither do the many thousands of passengers returning in their droves to the network on a daily basis.

If you're referring to the Caledonian Sleeper than I'm sure we're all aware of the state of that!

I was thinking of Thameslink actually, albeit a long way from Scotland. No idea if there are any others north of the border, but your statement that “trains don’t run overnight” was factually incorrect.

 

[baz962]

Pre covid , London Overground on the east London line run overnight on Friday and Saturday.

 

[Deltic1961]

Are you saying you’re in favour of public services being slashed, then?!

No, not at all ..... but it seems that the railway is exempt to cuts being made in almost every other area.

 

[alangla]

I was thinking of Thameslink actually, albeit a long way from Scotland. No idea if there are any others north of the border, but your statement that “trains don’t run overnight” was factually incorrect.

In the context of this thread, there’s basically nothing departing an origin station anywhere between about 0015 and 0455, some slightly later on a Friday night, but whether they’ll survive the cuts next year I don’t know. As has previously been discussed, Sundays are a complete write off and many post 1900 services are (and will remain) 1 TPH. We’ve basically got an 0600-1900, Mon-Sat railway in Scotland now. For the avoidance of doubt, the above refers specifically to ScotRail, not Avanti, LNER, XC, TPX or the sleeper.

 

[43066]

In the context of this thread, there’s basically nothing departing an origin station anywhere between about 0015 and 0455, some slightly later on a Friday night, but whether they’ll survive the cuts next year I don’t know. As has previously been discussed, Sundays are a complete write off and many post 1900 services are (and will remain) 1 TPH. We’ve basically got an 0600-1900, Mon-Sat railway in Scotland now. For the avoidance of doubt, the above refers specifically to ScotRail, not Avanti, LNER, XC, TPX or the sleeper.

Fair enough. That is pretty rubbish really! It’s easy to forget we are a little spoiled in London and the south east.

 

[ComUtoR]

But it seems that the railway is exempt to cuts being made in almost every other area.

The problem is, of course, that the railway cannot win here.

When we are carrying around fresh air there is a desire to cut, cut, cut. Then as service demand increases there is a desire to increase, increase, increase.

I constantly see complaints over lack of 'tph' on various routes but the opposed views that there are too many 'tph' and services should be cut.

The railway is flat out incapable of being dynamic enough to react to sudden changes in demand.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The problem is, of course, that the railway cannot win here.

When we are carrying around fresh air there is a desire to cut, cut, cut. Then as service demand increases there is a desire to increase, increase, increase.

I constantly see complaints over lack of 'tph' on various routes but the opposed views that there are too many 'tph' and services should be cut.

The railway is flat out incapable of being dynamic enough to react to sudden changes in demand.

Be careful what you wish for.

Indeed the railway does need to be more fleet of foot but its so tied itself up in knots over the years with a plethora of staff working arrangements and then privatisation creating even more processes that require numerous parties to be consulted that its lost the ability to do this.

 

[maradona10]

The sort of person who blocks you on Twitter when they start to lose an

Don't have twitter, are you the sort of guy who makes sweeping statements about people you don't know? Seems like it

Similar to the sort of people who ignore the point again and again, but default to "you're just jealous that I'm paid more than you / my job is better than yours" despite having absolutely no idea what you do!

I haven't ignored your points, I do however disagree with people who don't work for ScotRail or even live in Scotland and so don't use the services saying ScotRail workers should accept a pay cut year on year. That strikes me as strange.

I haven't mentioned your job and couldn't care less what your wages are.

 

[XAM2175]

I haven't ignored your points, I do however disagree with people who don't work for ScotRail or even live in Scotland and so don't use the services saying ScotRail workers should accept a pay cut year on year. That strikes me as strange.

You say "accept a pay cut year on year" but let's be realistic; you pay isn't actively being reduced - it's simply not increasing at the rate required to match inflation.

I've said earlier in this thread that I have considerable respect for trade unions and their efforts on behalf of their members, and I repeat it now for the avoidance of doubt. You are perfectly entitled to fight to protect - and indeed even enhance - your conditions of employment.

The fact however remains that your jury in the Court of Public Opinion is formed almost entirely of people who have never had any expectation of effectively-automatic year-on-year pay "adjustments", let alone one in the midst of all this disruption and uncertainty.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Rail workers announce 24-hour strike action during COP26 in Scotrail pay dispute

Unite the Union say they have been “left with no choice” after talks with Abellio Scotrail "produced absolutely nothing."

www.google.co.uk

Rail workers are set to take 24 hour strike action days as a result of what they call the ‘reckless’ actions of Abellio Scotrailmanagement.

Unite the Union say they have been “left with no choice” as they announced today that a series of 24-hour ‘stoppages’ will take place over the coming weeks.

The days scheduled for 24 hour strike action are as follows: October 18-19, November 1-2, November 10-11, and November 12-13.

The strike action will impact a number of areas and rail depots.

Weekday strikes coming up, lucky us.

 

[Falcon1200]

Note that this involves Engineers at depots rather than Drivers or Guards, so the impact of the strikes will not affect services in the same way (unless of course the RMT decide to join in.....)

 

[380101]

Note that this involves Engineers at depots rather than Drivers or Guards, so the impact of the strikes will not affect services in the same way (unless of course the RMT decide to join in.....)

This strike will have a significant impact as trains wont get serviced at the depots or moved from maintenance roads or sheds which will result in cancelled or short formed services.

 

[Deltic1961]

This type of disruption doesn't exactly help the "getting back on track" message, does it?

Transport Scotland need to actually wake up and do something before too much long term damage is done.

 

[alf]

Transport Scotland need to actually wake up and do something before too much long term damage is done.

Like British Gas?

 

[Deltic1961]

No, they'll just throw money at the problem paid for out of taxation. Nicola doesn't want to look bat at COP26 so she'll make the problem go away.

Apparently a new pay offer on the cards per the link to the BBC story below:

New pay offer in bid to halt ScotRail strikes

A fresh deal is expected to be put to railway workers after six months of industrial action, the Scottish government says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

haven't ignored your points, I do however disagree with people who don't work for ScotRail or even live in Scotland and so don't use the services saying ScotRail workers should accept a pay cut year on year. That strikes me as strange.

I disagree with the general principle of any public sector workers accepting a pay reduction, as I keep saying, but unfortunately that's not currently possible to change without a change of central government by one means or another because it's too large an objective. I wouldn't agree with railway staff receiving publicly funded pay increases without the other front-line staff like school workers or refuse collectors or hospital cleaners receiving one too, and that all goes for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

[maradona10]

You say "accept a pay cut year on year" but let's be realistic; you pay isn't actively being reduced - it's simply not increasing at the rate required to match inflation.

I've said earlier in this thread that I have considerable respect for trade unions and their efforts on behalf of their members, and I repeat it now for the avoidance of doubt. You are perfectly entitled to fight to protect - and indeed even enhance - your conditions of employment.

The fact however remains that your jury in the Court of Public Opinion is formed almost entirely of people who have never had any expectation of effectively-automatic year-on-year pay "adjustments", let alone one in the midst of all this disruption and uncertainty.

It’s essentially the same thing, to-mah-toes and to-may-toes. The poster I responded to said we should accept pay cuts year on year in a previous post. That’s unacceptable to most workers and they deserve the opportunity to fight against it, it’s their prerogative and anyone who speaks out against workers trying to protect pay has a weird agenda that I cannot understand, whatever the industry.

From speaking to public daily and reading posts on the net around the topic I can assure you that a lot of public have sympathy for workers, and historically have done in Scotland.

I disagree with the general principle of any public sector workers accepting a pay reduction, as I keep saying, but unfortunately that's not currently possible to change without a change of central government by one means or another because it's too large an objective. I wouldn't agree with railway staff receiving publicly funded pay increases without the other front-line staff like school workers or refuse collectors or hospital cleaners receiving one too, and that all goes for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Fortunately for rail workers it’s not your decision, we disagree that’s fine. Please refrain from personal insults and petty and sarcastic remarks because I haven’t used them against you.

 

[Starmill]

Fortunately for rail workers it’s not your decision, we disagree that’s fine.

It would be rather better for anyone in the public sector if I were Chancellor of the Exchequer than Rishi Sunak I fear. But this is the key point, it doesn't matter that you disagree, it's not going to change (save by waiting for the normal process to remove the fiscal hawks from government, or of course by abandoning the process and embracing violent revolution against the state) because the issue is economy-wide and not ScotRail specific. There are those of us who are pragmatic about that and can operate within that space to get the best deal, while also pointing out that we haven't changed our minds about the ultimate principle, and then there are the bodies like RMT, who er don't do that.

 

[maradona10]

It would be rather better for anyone in the public sector if I were Chancellor of the Exchequer than Rishi Sunak I fear. But this is the key point, it doesn't matter that you disagree, it's not going to change (save by waiting for the normal process to remove the fiscal hawks from government, or of course by abandoning the process and embracing violent revolution against the state) because the issue is economy-wide and not ScotRail specific. There are those of us who are pragmatic about that and can operate within that space to get the best deal, while also pointing out that we haven't changed our minds about the ultimate principle, and then there are the bodies like RMT, who er don't do that.

RMT represents the workers mate, the vast majority of whom who were eligible to vote did so in favour of industrial action. It’s happening across multiple grades and that’s it. We’ll see what happens, you’re not the all seeing oracle and I’ll kindly take your opinion on it with a large pinch of salt.

 

[Starmill]

RMT represents the workers mate, the vast majority of whom who were eligible to vote did so in favour of industrial action. It’s happening across multiple grades and that’s it. We’ll see what happens, you’re not the all seeing oracle and I’ll kindly take your opinion on it with a large pinch of salt.

Public funds belong to and are for the benefit of everyone, including you and me. I think that if we are realistic about the funds we can get access to, considering the situation in the round, we can allocate them to achieve the best value possible. You're free to argue differently of course, such as by arguing that one group of workers should be entitled to a greater share of them.

 

[Deltic1961]

Maybe those at Scotrail who think they are hard done by should read the public comments on the BBC article. Not much love for Scotrail or the striking staff it seems:

New pay offer in bid to halt ScotRail strikes

A fresh deal is expected to be put to railway workers after six months of industrial action, the Scottish government says.

www.bbc.co.uk

A fresh pay offer is expected to be made to ScotRail workers in a bid to end six months of industrial action, the Scottish government has said.
The rail operator has cancelled numerous services following a pay dispute with train conductors.
ScotRrail engineers have now also voted to take part in a series of strikes during Glasgow's COP26 event.
However, the government said it was hopeful "an appropriate and fair pay increase" could be agreed.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe those at Scotrail who think they are hard done by should read the public comments on the BBC article. Not much love for Scotrail or the striking staff it seems:

New pay offer in bid to halt ScotRail strikes

A fresh deal is expected to be put to railway workers after six months of industrial action, the Scottish government says.

www.bbc.co.uk

To be fair I don't really think that it serves anyone except for the tories for one group of workers to turn on another, because it means that neither is in that case correctly attributing blame for slipping living standards to it's true cause - the Treasury orthodoxy.

 

[ComUtoR]

Maybe those at Scotrail who think they are hard done by should read the public comments on the BBC article. Not much love for Scotrail or the striking staff it seems:

New pay offer in bid to halt ScotRail strikes

A fresh deal is expected to be put to railway workers after six months of industrial action, the Scottish government says.

www.bbc.co.uk

The article mentions engineering and Unite, not the RMT. Is there another upcoming strike ?