Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[ramondag]

More photos form politics for all on twitter - https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1454930433808945163

 

[ewsclass]

so a driver is expected to see a signal that is unlit on a very dark night, and treat it as a stop signal? Hmm

They will know where the signal is due to route knowledge and also the AWS will sound a warning even if power is lost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

so a driver is expected to see a signal that is unlit on a very dark night, and treat it as a stop signal? Hmm

The principle is that the driver is supposed to always know exactly where they are, and as such would see something wrong if they didn't see a signal at the point they should have seen one, but nothing is I guess perfect and I'd imagine it would be challenging to spot its exact position.

 

[theking]

so a driver is expected to see a signal that is unlit on a very dark night, and treat it as a stop signal? Hmm

If you sign a route you should know where your signals are.

 

[redbutton]

As a driver, I can confirm that it is NOT easy to see an outed signal in darkness, whether it has a plate on it or not.

Especially in heavy rain like we had earlier today. (I don't know whether it was raining in Salisbury at the time of this incident.)

 

[RPI]

If, as it think was mentioned earlier, a train from Salisbury towards Romsey had just passed, then the points and diamond might still be set for that route, which could (the conditional is important) divert a down train from the Andover line to the Up line. It still shouldn’t have been there. I wonder if we have two bits of very bad luck combining.

I'd say that if that was the case it probably was good luck as it meant the 159 went into the tunnel near enough on the up line thus avoiding the full head on impact with the 158, but that's pure speculation

 

[LOL The Irony]

Going over the images again, it's amazing nobody died.

 

[Davester50]

All I can think about is the one on the West Coast a few years ago.
The photos of the glancing blow seem similar to that one, however the units look to have come off a bit worse this time.

 

[BoroAndy]

If a signal is dead then it's emergency stop and contact signaller immediately.

Assuming last correct signal was green then surely driver would be expecting a green or yy to follow and hence would have been at full speed. Once realising signal was dead and no aws sound he would have braked hard and maybe prevented a more serious accident.

 

[alxndr]

Assuming last correct signal was green then surely driver would be expecting a green or yy to follow and hence would have been at full speed. Once realising signal was dead and no aws sound he would have braked hard and maybe prevented a more serious accident.

The AWS will sound a horn (warning) regardless of whether there is power or not. It's just a big magnet.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I hope the driver of the unit with the badly damaged cab is not seriously injured?

 

[supervc-10]

I think it was mentioned up thread that the driver of the 2nd unit was OK

 

[43096]

Assuming last correct signal was green then surely driver would be expecting a green or yy to follow and hence would have been at full speed. Once realising signal was dead and no aws sound he would have braked hard and maybe prevented a more serious accident.

Given the positions of the two trains, with 1F30 given priority into Salisbury, the last signal the driver of 1L53 should have seen was a red at the signal protecting the junction, and the one before that should have been a single yellow.

 

[bramling]

I'd say that if that was the case it probably was good luck as it meant the 159 went into the tunnel near enough on the up line thus avoiding the full head on impact with the 158, but that's pure speculation

I was thinking similar. Whatever has happened, the SWR train must have been doing an appreciable speed simply to have travelled as far as it has. Thankfully it seems to have gone to the right, as the consequences could well have been a lot worse if it had, for example, ended up having a full-on impact with the tunnel mouth.

Clearly there’s been a nasty combination of events to cause the accident to happen, but equally it’s very clear the outcome in terms of consequences could very easily have been a *lot* worse.

I also don’t think it’s out of place to say it is fortuitous indeed that there wasn’t a Southampton-bound train crossing the junction at the time, from the information we have it seems like one had only recently done so.

 

[Signal Head]

Signals should have batteries which would keep them lit if mains power is lost and the signal protecting the junction certainly did in 1980. If there are any problems, then they should go to red. I am not going to speculate further on something that is very odd.

'Greenfield' areas and some older power signalling schemes did indeed have batteries powering signals, however as a relatively modern (1981) scheme, this is unlikely at Salisbury.

The practice for many years has been to back up the (AC) supply at source, so the distributed power is backed up, but not individual equipment.

 

[IanXC]

I've posted a separate thread looking at previous 158/159 incidents here:

Previous 158/159 accident performance

Reading and looking at how the 158s and 159s performed in the Salisbury/Fisherton Tunnel incident got me thinking about how these units have performed in previous incidents, and nothing really came to mind. I wonder if anyone can recall any relevant incidents? Discussion of today's incident is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Old Shire]

Realtime Trains - 1F27 1658 Bristol Parkway to Portsmouth Harbour

l hope everyone hurt will be ok. Also feel sorry for the people on the above service

 

[Kite159]

I was on the 18:45 Waterloo - Salisbury service, which was held up at Basingstoke with the announcement that it was only going to Andover and any passengers for Grateley & Salisbury were to alight at Basingstoke for onward road transport. I assume that was due to Andover station this time of day being unstaffed. When I got off the train at Andover at a guess there was around 50+ passengers outside from I assume the previous service.

As for the incident itself, it's horrible to see the pictures but I'm glad there was no deaths or major injuries, for it could have been a lot worse.

 

[WatcherZero]

How common are tunnel ceiling collapses nowadays, when was the last one?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'd say that if that was the case it probably was good luck as it meant the 159 went into the tunnel near enough on the up line thus avoiding the full head on impact with the 158, but that's pure speculation

Its a fixed diamond junction. If the signaller hadn't set the route up from Basingstoke the points would still be reverse, unless they auto normalise, but the train would break the stretcher bar to prevent a derailment and then carried on into tunnel but a driver would be well aware of that happening.

Plenty for RAIB to look into here so this will be shut for several days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How common are tunnel ceiling collapses nowadays, when was the last one?

Last one I remember hearing about was bits falling off the Ffestiniog Tunnel, but it's an unusual case because it's unlined.

 

[brad465]

Realtime Trains - 1F27 1658 Bristol Parkway to Portsmouth Harbour

l hope everyone hurt will be ok. Also feel sorry for the people on the above service

Was this the train that had cleared the junction just before the collision? If so the holdup must have been it being affected by the signalling system shutting down as a result of the derailments.

Its a fixed diamond junction. If the signaller hadn't set the route up from Basingstoke the points would still be reverse, unless they auto normalise, but the train would break the stretcher bar to prevent a derailment and then carried on into tunnel but a driver would be well aware of that happening.

Plenty for RAIB to look into here so this will be shut for several days.

National Rail have it as "until end of the day Tuesday 2nd November", however that was down as until the end of tomorrow not too long ago, so further extensions are possible.

 

[phantomphish]

Yes it appears to be the worst was a bad cut to the head for a passenger, but treatable at the scene. The GWR driver appeared to be assisting both trains.

Railway Family at it's finest... doesn't matter what colour your jacket or lanyard, we're all in it together, and when the brown stuff hits the fan we all roll our sleeves up and do what needs to be done.

Glad that it seems no-one was seriously injured, and hopeful that anyone with any post-incident trauma are well supported. Looks to have been an awful incident and eventually time will reveal all about how it came to happen.

 

[EcsWhyZee]

Glad no one was injured. Wonder how the railway will deal with the loss of the 158 and 159 units, not like we're gonna be building any more of them!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Wonder how the railway will deal with the loss of the 158 and 159 units, not like we're gonna be building any more of them!

That depends on how bad the damage is and how easy it will be to repair. There is that spare 158 driving car built after the collision near Stockport in 1991 that's lying about somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Glad no one was injured. Wonder how the railway will deal with the loss of the 158 and 159 units, not like we're gonna be building any more of them!

TfW's will be available fairly soon, but if SWR is withdrawing the through Exeters/Bristols then there will probably be a few spare.

 

[dubscottie]

I looks like the GWR unit has suffered considerable damage also.
A picture on twitter appears to show the entire area around the toilet window on the 158 now sitting in what was the cab of the 159.

 

[HowardGWR]

As First Group own GWR and SWR one assumes that bustitution from Salisbury could be minimised. But will it be?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As First Group own GWR and SWR one assumes that bustitution from Salisbury could be minimised. But will it be?

What does that mean, exactly? The line is shut regardless of what logo is painted on the trains.

 

[Horizon22]

What does that mean, exactly? The line is shut regardless of what logo is painted on the trains.

I presume he means because it’s both FirstGroup TOCs who could work with say solely First Travel Solutions to source buses.

Rail replacement is extremely scarce at the moment however though, so not sure this would make much difference in the overall scheme of things