Trains on Mars...

[JackWhite]

As a space geek, I wonder how fast we'll have rails, trains, and all that stuff on Mars? I mean, is there even a possibility to have proper trains on this planet? Since the launch to Mars was announced Musk said that they will be spectating Mars from SpaceX and camera cubesat software which is going to be cool to see because, in theory, we will spectate it too. The first satellite of this system was launched back in 1969, and Skynet 6A will be the 15th satellite in the series. With the launch of this satellite, the transition to a new network architecture with upgraded terrestrial systems and another satellite contractor will begin. The cost of the updated program is about $ 700 million. Going forward, the Skynet 6A satellite will use its own propulsion system with a partnership of caiman imager to enter geostationary orbit, where it is expected to operate until the 2040s. So I bet that by 2040 we will have the first train on the planet. What do you think?

 

[Paul Jones 88]

Finally a location for all the old trains that people want to save but have hitherto had nowhere to go.

 

[Cowley]

I think 2040 might be a bit optimistic.

 

[javelin]

No problem with leaves on the line, that's a plus.

 

[O L Leigh]

Gravity is lower though, so adhesion may still be an issue.

I think that the answer has to be "no", at least in the timescale under discussion. To build a railway it would need to have a purpose, and I don't see it generating much in the way of peak loadings at present. There's also the not insignificant matter of having to haul it all up there to start off with.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

No problem with leaves on the line, that's a plus.

Counteracted by Martian dust storms, though?

 

[MotCO]

Will it be known as Mars(H)link?

 

[eastwestdivide]

So Bowie’s song was a typo then - “is there a line on Mars”

 

[swt_passenger]

So Bowie’s song was a typo then - “is there a line on Mars”

There’s definitely a few pubs there. Mars Bars…

 

[JackWhite]

Gravity is lower though, so adhesion may still be an issue.

I think that the answer has to be "no", at least in the timescale under discussion. To build a railway it would need to have a purpose, and I don't see it generating much in the way of peak loadings at present. There's also the not insignificant matter of having to haul it all up there to start off with.

If I am being completely honest with myself

So Bowie’s song was a typo then - “is there a line on Mars”

Haha, this is a good one actually. Nice to see that not only do I remember Bowie...

 

[JamesT]

Gravity is lower though, so adhesion may still be an issue.

I think that the answer has to be "no", at least in the timescale under discussion. To build a railway it would need to have a purpose, and I don't see it generating much in the way of peak loadings at present. There's also the not insignificant matter of having to haul it all up there to start off with.

I agree that 2040 looks overly optimistic. Maybe by then we might be close to some sort of manned landing.

I think a prerequisite for a Martian railway system is a permanent base. Quick trips would be handled with rovers, but if you're building something more substantial you're going to start spreading out. For example you would want your landing pads for your rockets to be sited a distance away from your housing in case of accidents, likewise industrial plants.
Transport for trips between different parts of your base does seem well suited for rail. Likely to be in some sort of tunnel to mitigate radiation.

Rather than hauling everything to Mars from Earth, it's going to need some sort of native production facility to make this all work. I can recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy for anyone who likes reading about this kind of world-building.

 

[O L Leigh]

Rather than hauling everything to Mars from Earth, it's going to need some sort of native production facility to make this all work. I can recommend Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy for anyone who likes reading about this kind of world-building.

I did think about that, but even native construction will require machinery to be lifted. If all you’re giving them to start the process of terraforming is a science kit and a box of matches (or whatever will fit inside a mission’s payload) it’s going to be generations before native construction capacity will be sufficient to even contemplate a project of that sort. Minerals will need to be extracted and refined, power sources established and facilities built before you can so much as forge a single bolt.

 

[stuu]

Gravity is lower though, so adhesion may still be an issue.

I think that the answer has to be "no", at least in the timescale under discussion. To build a railway it would need to have a purpose, and I don't see it generating much in the way of peak loadings at present. There's also the not insignificant matter of having to haul it all up there to start off with.

Ignoring all the enormously greater issues, I would have thought linear motors would be the way to go, or even maglev. Limiting the number of moving parts reduces the things that can go wrong

 

[popeter45]

there are 2 main usages i could see for a Mars train
Ore mining for materials and fuel production as well as for rocket transport potentally
you could use a far wider gauge (2-4 Meter Gauge?) for the adhesion issue maybe?

 

[O L Leigh]

I don’t suppose it would necessarily even need to be worked by adhesion. We’ve got a blank sheet of paper, after all.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would have thought that a Mars hovercraft would be the best solution really...

 

[O L Leigh]

I would have thought that a Mars hovercraft would be the best solution really...

Hmm. Not sure the atmosphere is dense enough to get that one off the ground. You’d need a lot of power to generate the lift with what there is.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

One thing to remember is that the atmosphere on Mars is extremely thin, much closer to vacuum than Earth sea-level.
In theory, Mars would allow for super fast trains, possibly on roller-coaster type rails.

Trips to the Moon and Mars have always been in the news as being about 5 and 10 years away respectively. Every year from 1975 to 2045 has been claimed to be when people would be on Mars. It's never going to happen. a rocket trip would only be able carry 4 people at most on a very long and radiation intense trip, which might not even be successful, and farming conditions on Mars might not match potato growing studies in Earth labs.
Habitation of Mars won't happen this century, to be successful a whole biosphere would need to be lowered to the surface from orbit, something impossible for the forseeable future. Even the International Space Station, which has many structural problems, isn't self sustainable.

Rail travel on Mars is well portrayed on Babylon 5, I suggest you watch some of those scenes.
There's more chance of a railway running between Antarctic research bases first.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hmm. Not sure the atmosphere is dense enough to get that one off the ground. You’d need a lot of power to generate the lift with what there is.

Not really, no. A hovercraft only needs the skirt to be filled to slightly greater than local atmospheric pressure to work.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Not really, no. A hovercraft only needs the skirt to be filled to slightly greater than local atmospheric pressure to work.

Would be ideal for much of the planet, most of the Martian northern hemisphere is old seabed and rather flat. People thought the helicopter wouldn't work at first.

 

[JB_B]

I've got my crayons out - is this any good ?

 

[Cowley]

I've got my crayons out - is this any good ?

It’s a start!

 

[O L Leigh]

Not really, no. A hovercraft only needs the skirt to be filled to slightly greater than local atmospheric pressure to work.

I’m not sure about that. I don’t know what sort of pressure is generated inside the skirt in order to lift a hovercraft here, but I suspect it’s a bit more than just slightly greater than one atmosphere.

The issue isn’t with inflating the skirt but lifting the mass of the craft. We have a bit of help here with the slightly weaker gravity and less dense atmosphere to hinder lifting the craft, but I’m unsure if that gives us enough to make lifting the body any easier. There’s also a question over propulsion.

 

[class26]

Counteracted by Martian dust storms, though?

and probably the wrong sort of dust !

 

[edwin_m]

I’m not sure about that. I don’t know what sort of pressure is generated inside the skirt in order to lift a hovercraft here, but I suspect it’s a bit more than just slightly greater than one atmosphere.

The issue isn’t with inflating the skirt but lifting the mass of the craft. We have a bit of help here with the slightly weaker gravity and less dense atmosphere to hinder lifting the craft, but I’m unsure if that gives us enough to make lifting the body any easier. There’s also a question over propulsion.

You only need to pressurise the underneath to a certain amount above local atmosphere, so the difference generates a net upward force. The necessary pressure difference would be the same for a craft with the same weight per unit area. However if the mass per unit area was the same, the weight per unit area would be less because of the lower gravity.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I’m not sure about that. I don’t know what sort of pressure is generated inside the skirt in order to lift a hovercraft here, but I suspect it’s a bit more than just slightly greater than one atmosphere.

The issue isn’t with inflating the skirt but lifting the mass of the craft. We have a bit of help here with the slightly weaker gravity and less dense atmosphere to hinder lifting the craft, but I’m unsure if that gives us enough to make lifting the body any easier. There’s also a question over propulsion.

I don't have the skirt pressure data immediately to hand - but I do have the downwards pressure exerted, which will be broadly similar. The below data is of course for Earthly conditions with a 1 bar atmospheric pressure... but it should allow those with a mathematical bent to calculate an approximation for the Martian conditions - remembering also to allow for the differences in gravitational force.

Hovercraft and the environment | Hover-Gen

www.hover-gen.com

Let us start with a large craft like the SRN4. Just how much pressure is it exerting on the surface?

Well, the larger Mk3 craft are 56.38m long and 23.16m wide. This gives them a surface area covered by the craft of 1,306m2 and their gross weight of 320,000kg results in a weight distribution of almost exactly 245kg per m2, which is very roughly the same pressure as water to a depth of 24.5cm.

Or in other words, the hovercraft is putting a lot less pressure on the surface of the beach than the high tide does!

But what about the pressure exerted by a smaller hovercraft? How does this compare?

Let us look at the AP1-88 series 400, which is a typical mid sized hovercraft.

These craft are 28.5m long by 12m wide ( surface area 342m2 ) and the gross weight is 69,000kg. This gives a weight distribution of about 202kg / m2 which is lower than the figure for the SRN4, but not hugely different. In this case it is about equal to a 20cm depth of water on the beach.

To give a complete picture, we need to look at small craft as well, and a very popular example is the Hov Pod. In this case, the standard dimensions are 3.63m by 1.86m and a typical maximum gross weight is 560kg ( note this varies according to the actual specifications of each individual craft ).

The mathematics here work out as 5.49m2 for the area, giving 102kg / m2 , a remarkably low pressure figure equal to only 10cm of water.

So we can see a clear trend here; the bigger the craft, the more pressure it exerts on the surface, but this is not a linear trend; indeed with the very large craft there is little increase as the craft size increases this is because the weight increases roughly proportionately with the size.

But there is one thing in common with all these craft even the largest craft, the SRN4 Mk3, clearly exerts a great deal less pressure on the beach than a person walking across it does! You don’t even need to do the mathematics to see this; consider a reasonably light person of around 75kg in weight walking across a beach. At any one time only a few cm2 of feet are in contact with the beach and this tny area is taking the pressure that an enormous SRN4 Mk3 spreads out over nearly half a square metre

 

[alf]

Gravity is lower though, so adhesion may still be an issue.

Not true.

Because Mars has 1/3rd gravity of earth, weight of train will be one third & adhesion will be one third. So no difference except one third of power will be needed on Mars to climb a gradient say of 1 in 50 as on earth. So greener!

But diesel won’t work as no oxygen in atmosphere to explode with the carbon/hydrogen diesel.

 

[JKF]

It’ll put the canals out of business.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Why would Skynet have anything to do with Mars?

It's the UK MoD's global communications system and has nothing at all to do with Mars!

 

[MarkyT]

At least with the thinner atmosphere, any Hyperloopery on Mars wouldn't need any implausible vacuum tubes.