HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[Ianno87]

Enough of them to make it as well used as Long Easton or Beeston or maybe even Loughborough I grant you, but I don't think that is quite what they had in mind.

None of them will get you to Birmingham in 20-odd minutes....

That's the game-changer.

 

[21C101]

M'lud, a point of order...

The Dr. Beeching mentioned above did not, as far as I can determine refer to 'wasteful' duplicate routes. In fact he wrote on page 14 of his Report:


More nuanced then my honourable friend implies.

Learned and sound words. BR were far slower to do such sensible rationalisation than the Southern Railway were who sorted such a situation at Margate and Ramagate in short order.

However actions speak louder than words, actions like publishing network maps with the East Coast Main Line north of Newcastle as a thin grey line, as not being selected for development due to it being a duplicate route (which basically got him fired).

I think it was Fiennes who said he was a brilliant man with only two flaws:

1) An over fondness for maps.

2) An over fondness for publishing them.

None of them will get you to Birmingham in 20-odd minutes....

That's the game-changer.

Something that is so desirable it justifies a DMU or two an hour at the moment and a motorway that half of it was downgraded to a two lane A Road as it didn't justify a motorway?

In any case there will now be trains from Derby Midland and Nottingham Midland to Birmingham International in about 20 minutes instead, although I really can't see vast numbers of east midlanders wanting to go to Birmingham, however short the journey time.

I gather they intend to stop HS2 services at East Midlands Parkway too.

 

[brad465]

Here are some of the northern newspaper front pages for tomorrow, that are a coordinated effort to force the Government to deliver on northern promises, along with an article on the Manchester evening news website:

Choose the North: The government must deliver on railway promises

Enough’s enough. The Prime Minister has been prepared to use chronic central government neglect of Northern England to his political advantage. It is time to keep his side of the bargain.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Today the North calls on government to finally put its money where its mouth is.

With ministers poised to release their long-delayed plan for railway investment this week, we warn it is time to replace rhetoric with reality where the North of England is concerned.

Enough’s enough. The Prime Minister has been prepared to use chronic central government neglect of Northern England to his political advantage. It is time to keep his side of the bargain.

Where rail investment is concerned, that does not mean a smattering of piecemeal upgrades dressed up as a transport revolution, ready for deployment on leaflets at the next election.

It means new inter-city lines to and across the North, a move supported both by Northern leaders and the Conservative manifesto.

His plan must now include those Northern Powerhouse Rail lines. We are calling on ministers to deliver the project, in full.

That does not mean merely upgrading the existing Manchester to Leeds Transpennine line while shunting other parts of the project down the tracks in the meantime.

It means doing for us what successive governments have done for the capital.

In Boris Johnson's own words, just after becoming Prime Minister in 2019: “I want to be the PM who does with Northern Powerhouse Rail what we did with Crossrail in London."

If that promise is to be met, it means seamlessly connecting the Western leg of HS2 through to West Yorkshire via an underground station at Manchester Piccadilly - and a new station in Bradford city centre.

 

[class26]

The key to that claim is "current fastest regular rail journey" - yes you can take the one train per day which takes 4hrs (which very few people use), but the standard hourly fast service takes 4hrs 20

NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York

Learned and sound words. BR were far slower to do such sensible rationalisation than the Southern Railway were who sorted such a situation at Margate and Ramagate in short order.

However actions speak louder than words, actions like publishing network maps with the East Coast Main Line north of Newcastle as a thin grey line, as not being selected for development due to it being a duplicate route (which basically got him fired).

I think it was Fiennes who said he was a brilliant man with only two flaws:

1) An over fondness for maps.

2) An over fondness for publishing them.


Something that is so desirable it justifies a DMU or two an hour at the moment and a motorway that half of it was downgraded to a two lane A Road as it didn't justify a motorway?

In any case there will now be trains from Derby Midland and Nottingham Midland to Birmingham International in about 20 minutes instead, although I really can't see vast numbers of east midlanders wanting to go to Birmingham, however short the journey time.

I gather they intend to stop HS2 services at East Midlands Parkway too.

The M42 should have been a 3 lane carriageway and all the way to the M1 but as it doesn`t go to London it doesn`t matter. Regularly it is overcrowded and congested and if you used it you would know this. The M42 simply isn`t good enough and neither is the rail service between Brum and Nottingham. It is slow and indirect and I would think demand is supressed because of this.

 

[800001]

NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York

The M42 should have been a 3 lane carriageway and all the way to the M1 but as it doesn`t go to London it doesn`t matter. Regularly it is overcrowded and congested and if you used it you would know this. The M42 simply isn`t good enough and neither is the rail service between Brum and Nottingham. It is slow and indirect and I would think demand is supressed because of this.

The 0540 Edinburgh to Kings Cross does not call at York. It is Newcastle only.

 

[Ianno87]

Something that is so desirable it justifies a DMU or two an hour at the moment and a motorway that half of it was downgraded to a two lane A Road as it didn't justify a motorway?

In any case there will now be trains from Derby Midland and Nottingham Midland to Birmingham International in about 20 minutes instead, although I really can't see vast numbers of east midlanders wanting to go to Birmingham, however short the journey time.

The current railway journey time is hardly attractive, and you won't get people choosing to live in Nottingham and working in Birmingham.

With HS2, you will. The impact on Generalised Journey Time will be pretty dramatic. That's what matters, and what the Eastern Leg is all about.

HS2 will have demand modelled all of this anyway, as part of their Economic Case.

 

[class26]

The 0540 Edinburgh to Kings Cross does not call at York. It is Newcastle only.

But it is ceasing. There will be no 4 hour journey times between Kings x and Edinburgh

 

[800001]

But it is ceasing. There will be no 4 hour journey times between Kings x and Edinburgh

From when? Also, the way your post reads, implies it calls at York now

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We're concentrating a lot on Trent-Leeds, quite reasonably.
But will there be anything special for the West Midlands in this, like a connection from the south-west so that XC services can use the new line between Birmingham and Leeds?
What about WCML upgrades north of Golborne?
They keep mentioning Bolton-Wigan electrification (already announced), but that's small fry (in fact, irrelevant now it's worked by bi-modes) compared to what's needed.

 

[21C101]

NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York

Note: Attachment is screenshot of National Rail app showing 05.40 Edinburgh to KX calling Newcastle Only and arriving KX at 09.40 on 16.11.21

 

[tomuk]

Here are some of the northern newspaper front pages for tomorrow, that are a coordinated effort to force the Government to deliver on northern promises, along with an article on the Manchester evening news website:

All those papers are published by Reach Plc it probably saves them the effort of writing separate articles.

 

[Grumpy Git]

NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York

The M42 should have been a 3 lane carriageway and all the way to the M1 but as it doesn`t go to London it doesn`t matter. Regularly it is overcrowded and congested and if you used it you would know this. The M42 simply isn`t good enough and neither is the rail service between Brum and Nottingham. It is slow and indirect and I would think demand is supressed because of this.

Ditto the A14.

It's allways a complete p*** take when London doesn't enter the equation.

 

[21C101]

The current railway journey time is hardly attractive, and you won't get people choosing to live in Nottingham and working in Birmingham.

With HS2, you will. The impact on Generalised Journey Time will be pretty dramatic. That's what matters, and what the Eastern Leg is all about.

HS2 will have demand modelled all of this anyway, as part of their Economic Case.

Canning Toton (including its "parkway") to (roughly) Wath wont make a whit of diffrence to this, in fact it will improve matters as said HS2 trains will now run to Nottingham Midland and Derby Midland.

 

[Ianno87]

Ditto the A14.

Now D3 all the way from the M11 to the A1.

The rest doesn't really need more than D2.

 

[class26]

Yes, I know it runs at the moment but it is on borrowed time which it what i said . It went in the new timetable which has now been deferred. Apparently less than 30% of the trains made it in 4 hours
All trains were proposed to stop at York and had extra minutes added.

 

[21C101]

Ditto the A14.

It's allways a complete p*** take when London doesn't enter the equation.

Would that be the same London that had the M23 Junction 1 to 7 cancelled. The last two miles of the M1 cancelled. The entire M15 (ringway 2 replacing the North and South Circular) cancelled, and much more and to this day has probably the worst, most congested, road network in the country with virtually no motorways, few dual carriageways and a car ferry on its main ring road?

 

[800001]

Yes, I know it runs at the moment but it is on borrowed time which it what i said . It went in the new timetable which has now been deferred. Apparently less than 30% of the trains made it in 4 hours
All trains were proposed to stop at York and had extra minutes added.

You didn't say it was on borrowed time, I know what I read, you wrote it calls at York, you didn't imply that it was based on the now withdrawn proposed timetable.

Love to know no where your 'apparently 30%' figure comes from, as it is far more than that that arrive on time.
Also The Flying Scotsman is one of the top 5 trains money wise for Lner, so let's see what the next proposed December 2022 timetable will me, I can foresee it staying.

 

[Roast Veg]

Canning Toton (including its "parkway") to (roughly) Wath wont make a whit of diffrence to this, in fact it will improve matters as said HS2 trains will now run to Nottingham Midland and Derby Midland.

As mentioned, Nottingham to Birmingham is a real win. Derby should be served infrequently, about as much as Chesterfield. Ideally we'll get a fast avoiding via the Erewash Valley, but I don't think anybody is prepared to confirm that yet.

 

[Ianno87]

Would that be the same London that had the M23 Junction 1 to 7 cancelled. The last two miles of the M1 cancelled. The entire M15 (ringway 2 replacing the North and South Circular) cancelled, and much more and to this day has probably the worst, most congested, road network in the country with virtually no motorways, few dual carriageways and a car ferry on its main ring road?

London would frankly have been awful to inhabit if all that had been built.

 

[21C101]

Yes, I know it runs at the moment but it is on borrowed time which it what i said . It went in the new timetable which has now been deferred. Apparently less than 30% of the trains made it in 4 hours
All trains were proposed to stop at York and had extra minutes added.

Heres the same train on 5th February 2022, which is about as far ahead as Journey Planner goes. Still 4 hours. Still fast from Newcastle.

Note: Attachment is screenshot of National Rail app showing 05.40 Edinburgh to KX calling Newcastle Only and arriving KX at 09.40 on 05.02.22

 

[Ianno87]

Heres the same train on 5th February 2022, which is about as far ahead as Journey Planner goes. Still 4 hours. Still fast from Newcastle.

By "new timetable" @class26 Meant the now-deferred proposed May 2022 timetable, consulted on last year.

 

[NoRoute]

The M42 should have been a 3 lane carriageway and all the way to the M1 but as it doesn`t go to London it doesn`t matter. Regularly it is overcrowded and congested and if you used it you would know this. The M42 simply isn`t good enough and neither is the rail service between Brum and Nottingham. It is slow and indirect and I would think demand is supressed because of this.

It's worst at the south end, the section around where it meets the M6 and A45 was typically awful, which made it a curious location to locate HS2 Interchange because driving along there in the morning or evening was a nightmare. Begging the question of how potential passengers outside Birmingham city centre would access HS2 and still benefit from time savings, rather than using conventional rail services.

 

[21C101]

London would frankly have been awful to inhabit if all that had been built.

Not the bits where the people who pull all the strings live. They would have been just fine with motorways to get them in and out without having to sit with the hoi polloi on trains

Which rather disproves the conspiracy theory that said string pullers get what they want all the time and throttle investment for everyone else.

 

[Ianno87]

Not the bits where the people who pull all the strings live. They would have been just fine with motorways to get them in and out without having to sit with the hoi polloi on trains

Which rather disproves the conspiracy theory that said string pullers get what they want all the time and throttle investment for everyone else.

Not sure about that.

Leafy middle class Tory-voting safe seat Beckenham would have had a Ringway plough straight through the middle of it.

 

[21C101]

By "new timetable" @class26 Meant the now-deferred proposed May 2022 timetable, consulted on last year.

What he actually wrote before being challenged was:

"NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York"

 

[geoffk]

There is an under used four track railway (North Midland Main line) linking the two sections together and it will get a significant upgrade meaning that Leeds will still get much faster services than at present.

The 30 miles of high speed line at the northern end is needed to replace the bit of the North Midland Main Line via Goose Hill and Cudworth that BR closed supposedly due to mining subsidence.

I've not read all of this thread but is the old North Midland route a viable option, i.e. not built over. I thought the area round Wath Road Jn was all built up now. An interesting idea anyway as many regretted the closure of this line.

 

[Ianno87]

What he actually wrote before being challenged was:

"NO trains do it in 4 hours now and by all accounts it rarely made it in 4 hours so basically it wasn`t really achievable , the 05.40 now stops at York"

Semantics aside, the point still stands that the addition of a York stop is proposed.

 

[21C101]

Not sure about that.

Leafy middle class Tory-voting safe seat Beckenham would have had a Ringway plough straight through the middle of it.

Its the ones who live in the various zone 1 fashionable places who pull the strings.

The middle classes in places like Beckenham and (in those days Streatham) were quite good at obstructing said string pullers.

To be fair the ringway was never going to be affordable other than the bits either side of the M23 that central government were paying for.

Semantics aside, the point still stands that the addition of a York stop is proposed.

Was proposed. Now canned until further notice if not permanently. If it has survived the coronavirus (they could easily have got away with adding extra stops with the drop in pax numbers) I doubt it is going any time soon. Especially after this weeks announcement.

I've not read all of this thread but is the old North Midland route a viable option, i.e. not built over. I thought the area round Wath Road Jn was all built up now. An interesting idea anyway as many regretted the closure of this line.

Hence it is being built mainly on a new alignment starting a couple of miles or so north of Wath (although it will pass remarkably close to Goose Hill Junction and run parallel to the mldland route much of the way north of Altofts via Woodlesford).

 

[Bald Rick]

four tracking Welwyn (which sorts a big chunk of the paths issue)

does it?

BR ran parts of it at 140mph with lineside signalling in successful trials decades ago so it is not beyond the wit of man to get 150-160 mph on goodly stretches of it with such an upgrade.

well, yes, if you replace all the track, every set of points, almost everything under the track, all the OLE, and all the signalling, put in a lot more power, and keep existing linespeeds through any tunnels and stations with adjacent platforms. In short, basically building a new railway but with the added complication of doing it right on top of an existing one. And all to save about 6 minutes from London to York.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/1460334195746746372?s=21