HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[Caboose Class]

Just announced on the BBC - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59292120

The government is set to scrap the eastern leg of HS2 between the Midlands and Leeds, sources have told the BBC.
The Transport Department will instead announce a new rail plan on Thursday, involving £96bn of funding for new routes in the North and Midlands.
Sources said the impact of scrapping the Leeds leg of HS2 would make journeys longer by 20 minutes.
But the government is set to argue the new plans will deliver comparable benefits more quickly and cheaply.
A source told BBC political correspondent Nick Eardley they would show an "enormous amount of common sense".

So where does this leave the Northern Powerhouse now?

 

[55002]

Levelling up!

 

[RedPostJunc]

Should it be renamed HS 1½?

 

[cats_five]

Great. I used to live in Leeds and travelled to Birmingham by train fairly often. The trundle from Leeds to Sheffield - possibly via Doncaster - was interminable. As the crow flies the railway stations are about 30 miles apart, many of the times are over an hour.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Great. I used to live in Leeds and travelled to Birmingham by train fairly often. The trundle from Leeds to Sheffield - possibly via Doncaster - was interminable. As the crow flies the railway stations are about 30 miles apart, many of the times are over an hour.

According to that article a high speed Leeds-Sheffield route will still be built.

 

[cats_five]

According to that article a high speed Leeds-Sheffield route will still be built.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Coolzac]

It's the end of any hope of us having a proper High Speed Network in this country, I believe.

I personally think that you either need to create a proper high speed network, or none at all. This half baked end product is not going to be worth it, quite frankly! I don't think the cost of HS2 is going to be worth the slight journey reduction times and extra capacity between London and Birmingham/Manchester.

 

[Horizon22]

According to that article a high speed Leeds-Sheffield route will still be built.

I do find it odd they intend to “build a high-speed route” with no intention to connect it to the main HS2 route. No doubt it would likely be connected in the future (decades later at even more cost) anyway and no doubt different standards / contracts / processes. It’s more ridiculous short-termist, piecemeal approaches which was all meant to be avoided with HS2 plans.

 

[Coolzac]

I do find it odd they intend to “build a high-speed route” with no intention to connect it to the main HS2 route. No doubt it would likely be connected in the future (decades later at even more cost) anyway and no doubt different standards / contracts / processes. It’s more ridiculous short-termist, piecemeal approaches which was all meant to be avoided with HS2 plans.

Completely agree

 

[Darandio]

According to that article a high speed Leeds-Sheffield route will still be built.

I reckon they may well be stretching the definition of high speed with this one. It wouldn't surprise me if there were minimal upgrades to existing lines with a headline non-stop service each way per day to claim x amount of minutes off the current fastest journey. Short term, penny pinching nonsense.

 

[21C101]

I do find it odd they intend to “build a high-speed route” with no intention to connect it to the main HS2 route. No doubt it would likely be connected in the future (decades later at even more cost) anyway and no doubt different standards / contracts / processes. It’s more ridiculous short-termist, piecemeal approaches which was all meant to be avoided with HS2 plans.

I don't. There is an under used four track railway (North Midland Main line) linking the two sections together and it will get a significant upgrade meaning that Leeds will still get much faster services than at present.

The 30 miles of high speed line at the northern end is needed to replace the bit of the North Midland Main Line via Goose Hill and Cudworth that BR closed supposedly due to mining subsidence.

I would imagine that reinstating the four track from Dore to Sheffield will be part of this along with full electrucication of the midland main line meaning Derby and Nottingham get HS2 direct services rather than them calling at a white elephant East Midlands Parkway the Second at Toton.

 

[Bigman]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

 

[21C101]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

With that sort of upgrade and full in cab signalling 150-160mph on chunks of it ought to be feasible.

 

[Meole]

Eurostar ran on existing lines for many years before its upgrade.

 

[Gareth]

It's the end of any hope of us having a proper High Speed Network in this country, I believe.

I don't think that was ever on the cards. The Y network in full was always going to be the maximum scenario, not the minimum.

 

[gg1]

Great. I used to live in Leeds and travelled to Birmingham by train fairly often. The trundle from Leeds to Sheffield - possibly via Doncaster - was interminable. As the crow flies the railway stations are about 30 miles apart, many of the times are over an hour.

At the other end of the line Birmingham - Nottingham was almost as bad, 1hr 15m for cities only 45 miles apart.

Hopefully the government will at least have the good sense to retain passive provision for a possible grade separated junction north of Birmingham Interchange at a later date.

 

[STINT47]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

That's good for Leeds and the East Coast but does nothing for the East Midlands.

I live in between Nottingham and Derby and our train services ate already poor compared to the East Coast main line

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think until the full IRP comes out it is speculation, we need more details on what the Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield to Leeds High Speed lines are going to look like. New or massive upgrades? Detail isn't there yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

At the other end of the line Birmingham - Nottingham was almost as bad, 1hr 15m for cities only 45 miles apart.

Hopefully the government will at least have the good sense to retain passive provision for a possible grade separated junction north of Birmingham Interchange at a later date.

The article linked in the first post still includes Birmingham to East Midlands, why wouldn’t that be grade separated as already planned?

But this is only the BBC reporting the weekend’s speculation already being discussed in another thread, it still isn’t the announcement…

 

[JonathanH]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

Probably more expensive and certainly more disruptive than building HS2E and just as controversial.

 

[gg1]

The article linked in the first post still includes Birmingham to East Midlands, why wouldn’t that be grade separated as already planned?

But this is only the BBC reporting the weekend’s speculation already being discussed in another thread, it still isn’t the announcement…

I read the article as stating the entire West Midlands to Leeds leg is being scrapped, not just East Midlands to Leeds.

 

[swt_passenger]

I read the article as stating the entire West Midlands to Leeds leg is being scrapped, not just East Midlands to Leeds.

From post #1’s link: “Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will announce two shorter high-speed routes created in part by upgrading existing lines. One will run between Leeds and Sheffield, another from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway.”

 

[HSTEd]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

WHy?

All that is going to cost astronomical sums of money, and with Scotland traffic decamping to HS2-West, and Leeds traffic probably largely decamping to changing at Manchester, what justification is there for an ECML upgrade at all?

If we are lucky we will get a chord from the northern section of HS2-East to the Doncaster-Leeds line

 

[gg1]

From post #1’s link: “Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will announce two shorter high-speed routes created in part by upgrading existing lines. One will run between Leeds and Sheffield, another from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway.”

"created in part by upgrading existing lines." = government speak for "consisting almost entirely of minimal upgrades to existing routes."

I highly doubt this will involve a connection to HS2.

 

[snowball]

Some contributors to this thread seem to be unaware of previous and current discussion in other threads (now in the speculation subforum) and of the large number of previous leaks.

The gist of previous leaks is that the south and north ends of the eastern arm of HS2 will go ahead. The south end will be from the junction with HS2 phase 1 at Curdworth to the MML near East Midlands Parkway. The north end will be from Leeds to the Sheffield - Church Fenton line at Clayton.

The BBC national lunchtime TV news didn't mention the northern section and gave the impression that only the south end will go ahead, but Look North (Leeds) was a bit more detailed and made it clear that the northern section is still on.

 

[YorkshireBear]

From post #1’s link: “Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will announce two shorter high-speed routes created in part by upgrading existing lines. One will run between Leeds and Sheffield, another from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway.”

This is where I really want some early details where possible, because any increase in pressure on Sheffield Northern throat will be hard to solve.

 

[swt_passenger]

"created in part by upgrading existing lines." = government speak for "consisting entirely of minimal upgrades to existing routes."

I highly doubt this will involve a connection to HS2.

Well as @snowball just mentioned, a lot depends if you’ve been reading all the recent threads and posts on the same subject...

 

[hwl]

I do find it odd they intend to “build a high-speed route” with no intention to connect it to the main HS2 route. No doubt it would likely be connected in the future (decades later at even more cost) anyway and no doubt different standards / contracts / processes. It’s more ridiculous short-termist, piecemeal approaches which was all meant to be avoided with HS2 plans.

From post #1’s link: “Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will announce two shorter high-speed routes created in part by upgrading existing lines. One will run between Leeds and Sheffield, another from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway.”

As I posted on a previous threat a fortnight ago before everything got moved to "speculative" the plan appears to be building HS2 2B East north of the proposed northern junction of the Sheffield loop / not via Sheffield main routes hence Sheffield Leeds ends up as around half new route half existing (with upgrade) which aligns with the article text.

The "what to do about Sheffield?" question will take several years to answer so better to get on with the rest where there is certainty.

 

[gg1]

Well as @snowball just mentioned, a lot depends if you’ve been reading all the recent threads and posts on the same subject...

Fair enough, and no I haven't in any great depth.

 

[tbtc]

It’s more ridiculous short-termist, piecemeal approaches which was all meant to be avoided with HS2 plans

I agree, but this is what the "HS2 should start in the north" people wanted - this is the disjointed regional version that they claimed to prefer to building one unified network from the London end

It'll be fine politically, because Yorkshire get's its bit of line (wholly in Yorkshire) and the Midlands get their bit of line (wholly in the Midlands), so it should play well to all of the local politicians etc - it's just a kick in the teeth to anyone who wanted to travel outside of their region, or who'd hoped for a unified project capable of delivering national benefits

Be careful what you wish for!

(we just really need to spend a few quid tackling Sheffield Midland - taking two Doncaster stoppers out of the equation will be a marginal help but I fear we may have to terminate the Barnsley stoppers at Meadowhall (i.e. Huddersfield and Castleford losing direct trains to Sheffield, since these will be lowest in the pecking order once the Donny stoppers are replaced by TramTrains - at least Meadowhall would permit terminating trains to layover at the old Brightside loops)