HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[Killingworth]

I don't. There is an under used four track railway (North Midland Main line) linking the two sections together and it will get a significant upgrade meaning that Leeds will still get much faster services than at present.

The 30 miles of high speed line at the northern end is needed to replace the bit of the North Midland Main Line via Goose Hill and Cudworth that BR closed supposedly due to mining subsidence.

I would imagine that reinstating the four track from Dore to Sheffield will be part of this along with full electrucication of the midland main line meaning Derby and Nottingham get HS2 direct services rather than them calling at a white elephant East Midlands Parkway the Second at Toton.

Reinstating 4 track between Dore and Sheffield is not as easy as many imagine, see this current thread; https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-three-stations-in-the-sheffield-area.214893/

There's also an issue with slow limestone and cement trains pulling across Dore South Junction off the Hope Valley line and into Bradway Tunnel. It's a tight uphill curve.

 

[snowball]

It'll be fine politically, because Yorkshire get's its bit of line (wholly in Yorkshire) and the Midlands get their bit of line (wholly in the Midlands), so it should play well to all of the local politicians etc - it's just a kick in the teeth to anyone who wanted to travel outside of their region, or who'd hoped for a unified project capable of delivering national benefits

I don't think Northern politicians will take it quietly. They have been forming a fairly united front and calling for the whole eastern arm to be built. The most recent such call was the main front page item on the Yorkshire Post a couple of days ago. Furthermore they will be angry about NPR at least as much as about HS2. Rumours are that NPR will be reduced to not much more than TRU. Bradford will be left out and Liverpool looks likely to be left out.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Begs the question if all HS2 was really about was to relieve congestion on the southern part of the WCML, why go to all the cost to make the current construction capable of such high speeds?

I hope all the Tory MP's in the north are frothing into their coffee.

 

[mpthomson]

I don't think Northern politicians will take it quietly. They have been forming a fairly united front and calling for the whole eastern arm to be built. The most recent such call was the main front page item on the Yorkshire Post a couple of days ago. Furthermore they will be angry about NPR at least as much as about HS2. Rumours are that NPR will be reduced to not much more than TRU. Bradford will be left out and Liverpool looks likely to be left out.

There's still an awful lot of the north that HS2, even in its entirety, would have done nothing to help. Places like Barrow, Workington, the entire NE coast other than Newcastle...

 

[Ianno87]

Begs the question if all HS2 was really about was to relieve congestion on the southern part of the WCML, why go to all the cost to make the current construction capable of such high speeds?

By "all the cost" you mean "relatively low marginal cost for proportionately much higher additional journey time benefits above and beyond the core capacity benefits"?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Begs the question if all HS2 was really about was to relieve congestion on the southern part of the WCML, why go to all the cost to make the current construction capable of such high speeds?

That's been answered so many times before on these forums. Adding the much higher speeds compared to the current WCML doesn't add that much to the construction costs, and it means you can operate the line with less rolling stock (therefore more cheaply) for a given frequency, plus you attract more passengers, therefore more revenue.

 

[Grumpy Git]

That's been answered so many times before on these forums. Adding the much higher speeds compared to the current WCML doesn't add that much to the construction costs, and it means you can operate the line with less rolling stock (therefore more cheaply) for a given frequency, plus you attract more passengers, therefore more revenue.

Thanks. Any figures for a (say) 125mph new line v's the one we're getting?

I wish I could laugh at the fact that I was in my 40's when HS2 was announced, but I'll be almost 80 when (if) the western leg is completed. Northeners are definitely second class citizens when it comes to infrastructure spending.

 

[Western Sunset]

So to clarify, is it just the section between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield that is being abandoned?

 

[WestRiding]

So to clarify, is it just the section between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield that is being abandoned?

It appears that way yes.

 

[MontyP]

"created in part by upgrading existing lines." = government speak for "consisting almost entirely of minimal upgrades to existing routes."

I highly doubt this will involve a connection to HS2.

But there isn't an existing (direct) line from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway - unless it means one of Tamworth/Lichfield - Burton - Derby/Castle Donington or Nuneaton/Leicester, all of which are 2-track, capacity constrained, junctions facing the wrong way etc. I think the proposal will be to build the new leg from Birmingham as far as EMP and then run on the existing MML via Erewash Valley and perhaps Barrow Hill (bypassing Sheffield).

 

[JamesT]

Thanks. Any figures for a (say) 125mph new line v's the one we're getting?

I wish I could laugh at the fact that I was in my 40's when HS2 was announced, but I'll be almost 80 when (if) the western leg is completed. Northeners are definitely second class citizens when it comes to infrastructure spending.

HS2's report into Phase 1 costs had a an estimate of around 9% difference in costs between the scheme as designed and one where it dropped down to 'classic' 125mph speeds.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks. Appears that the "leaks" are being deliberately obscure on some points...

 

[snowball]

So to clarify, is it just the section between East Midlands Parkway and Sheffield that is being abandoned?

East Midlands Parkway to Clayton, almost midway between Sheffield and Leeds.

Also the status of the link to Church Fenton must be in doubt as a result, as may Lymm to Wigan.

 

[Western Sunset]

Might as well just build the whole lot...

 

[snowball]

There's still an awful lot of the north that HS2, even in its entirety, would have done nothing to help. Places like Barrow, Workington, the entire NE coast other than Newcastle...

By that argument you'd never build anything anywhere.

 

[cnjb8]

Considering the line would have been built literally thirty seconds away from my house, I am happy about the cancellation!

 

[38Cto15E]

I assume electrification will also be put on the back burner for Birmingham-East Mids Pkway and Sheffield to Leeds, or are there plans to still electrify Birmingham to East Mids and Leeds to Sheffield..

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I assume electrification will also be put on the back burner for Birmingham-East Mids Pkway and Sheffield to Leeds, or are there plans to still electrify Birmingham to East Mids and Leeds to Sheffield..

Well we're still in speculation territory, but realistically, the new lines are going to have to be electric, and that almost certainly means electrification of the MML North of East Midlands Parkway will form part of the new plans. I can't see any plausible way they could do anything like what's being reported without that.

 

[deltic]

HS2's report into Phase 1 costs had a an estimate of around 9% difference in costs between the scheme as designed and one where it dropped down to 'classic' 125mph speeds.

HS2 doesn't exactly have a good track record in assessing costs!

 

[Ianno87]

By that argument you'd never build anything anywhere.

Doesn't stop it being repeatedly trotted out as an 'argument' in these parts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What use is a new east-facing high-speed terminus station in Leeds?
It's not obvious what services would use it if the ECML route is as fast or faster than services via the crippled HS2 route.
I could see XC and ECML services using it if there are connections further out and classic services are allowed in (using ETCS).
That would free up capacity for enhanced NPR services in City station. (Assuming there is no new NPR route from the east).
But how would through services reach York?
It's all too vague at the moment.

 

[HSTEd]

What use is a new east-facing high-speed terminus station in Leeds?
It's not obvious what services would use it if the ECML route is as fast or faster than services via the crippled HS2 route.
I could see XC and ECML services using it if there are connections further out and classic services are allowed in (using ETCS).
That would free up capacity for enhanced NPR services in City station. (Assuming there is no new NPR route from the east).
But how would through services reach York?
It's all too vague at the moment.

Well a chord from the northern HS2-E stub to the Doncaster-Leeds line would allow the via ECML trains to use it....

It's not in the original HS2 East plans but it can't be that expensive to add, and it solves the Leeds station capacity problems....

 

[cats_five]

If HS2E has been axed, then instead of mucking about with 2 half-baked schemes between Leeds and Sheffield and East Midlands and Birmingham, they may as well plough the brass into a full upgrade of the ECML. Build a new viaduct and tunnels to quadrify Digswell to Woolmer Green, four track Connington to Peterborough, and open out Stoke tunnel to make a 4 track cutting and you could have 4 track all the way from Kings Cross to Grantham. Replace various level crossing with tunnels/overbridges, new signalling and get the line speed up to 140 and that would probably be enough. Right, tin hat on.

Upgrading the ECML does nothing for journeys such as Sheffield-Leeds, Sheffield-Manchester and Leeds-Manchester

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well a chord from the northern HS2-E stub to the Doncaster-Leeds line would allow the via ECML trains to use it....

It's not in the original HS2 East plans but it can't be that expensive to add, and it solves the Leeds station capacity problems....

At the expense of ECML trains not calling at Wakefield, or being able to run through to Harrogate. Though as you imply, it does open the option for more local trains. And to be honest, without a chord to allow something else to use it, I'm struggling to see how you could put enough trains on this new line terminating at Leeds to make it worthwhile building it. But maybe we'll get some answers on Thursday

 

[cats_five]

<snip>

The "what to do about Sheffield?" question will take several years to answer so better to get on with the rest where there is certainty.

About the same as John Betjeman suggested should be done to Slough?

 

[tomuk]

Rumours are that NPR will be reduced to not much more than TRU. Bradford will be left out

I think the Bradford issue is being overplayed because as far as I was aware the proposed NPR station was a parkway out near Low Moor.

 

[Sbahn4]

hs2 was only about extending the london commuter belt.

 

[Grumpy Git]

hs2 was only about extending the london commuter belt.

Covid sorted that out for them.

 

[hwl]

Might as well just build the whole lot...

The bit being kicked into the long grass is the bit that might change depending on Toton and Sheffield choices

 

[21C101]

Well a chord from the northern HS2-E stub to the Doncaster-Leeds line would allow the via ECML trains to use it....

It's not in the original HS2 East plans but it can't be that expensive to add, and it solves the Leeds station capacity problems....

I think it needs

(1) the above chord

(2) a chord just outside Leeds where it runs parallel to the Midland Main Line via Woodlesford so trains can go off it into City and onto Bradford/Harrogate/York.

(3) a chord at Waterloo so that Northeast to Birmingham trains can go into New Street and onto Bristol etc. instead of terminating at Curzon street with an awkward cross city journey to New St to carry onto Bristol.

I suspect the link to Church Fenton is for the chop.

I suspect the angst about Sheffield is misplaced on the grounds that, other than a couple of Euston to Sheffield terminators an hour and a couple of Newcastle Birminghams (ie the same number as now) everything will go via the Old Road and call instead at a Reopened Rotherham Masborough.

Someone in government obviously found out that there is a largely four track (or formerly four track) main line between East Midlands Parkway and Clayton with Sweet FA using it and asked why the XXXX@! £30 billion was being spent on a new line parallel to it when you could electrify and upgrade it to ~125mph for a sixth of the cost and only get to Leeds 20 minutes later with almost as many train paths.

....and the train paths that can't be accomodated on it sent to Derby and Nottingham instead of serving them from the middle of nowhere at Toton with a station that, if nearby East Midlands Parkway is anything to go by, will be a little used White Elephant.

I always felt that the Eastern Leg was a political scheme that made no commercial or operational sense.

This is a much better proposal that is actually of benefit to tbe East Midlands cities

It also means an end to the barmy and crazy idea of concentrating the all the expresses on the WCML, MML and ECML on to one single pair of tracks between Birmingham International and Euston; meaning if one train breaks down, or the catenary breaks, the entire London to Midlands North of England/Scotland intercity service is royally and totally foobarred.