Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Mcr Warrior]

How much will have been spent already on planning /consultancy fees?

 

[Roast Veg]

How much will have been spent already on planning /consultancy fees?

"Planning" ceased some time ago, according to some reports.

 

[takno]

"Planning" ceased some time ago, according to some reports.

Planning was paused a while ago, but they're probably several hundred million into it.

 

[Starmill]

You don't spend £ hundreds of millions on planning. Especially for something which requires an Order under the Transport & Works Act, or indeed something larger (such as a hybrid bill) where that consents process has not actually begun. NPR and phase 2b haven't reached that stage yet, although we may see a High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill being deposited soon after the publication of the IRP.

You may of course spend (or suffer the opportunity cost of) such sums on land.

 

[Roast Veg]

You may of course spend (or suffer the opportunity cost of) such sums on land.

Money was spent on route safeguarding for sure.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There was a lot of chatter about the Midland and the East Coast being heavily invested in, which would tie in with a theme of them not even building Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway. Pretty certain, however, that Crewe is safe, and so should the section into Manchester?

 

[Starmill]

Money was spent on route safeguarding for sure.

Indeed. If Western 2b is changed at this stage in such a way that it is going to be permanently different then enormous amounts of public money have been wasted.

 

[Roast Veg]

I think it's safe-ish to say that 2b to Manchester and the "bits" proposed on the eastern side won't diverge far from the safeguarded route - a little further south on the MML for EMP and possibly widened/adjusted ad Clayton.

 

[Starmill]

I think it's safe-ish to say that 2b to Manchester and the "bits" proposed on the eastern side won't diverge far from the safeguarded route - a little further south on the MML for EMP and possibly widened/adjusted ad Clayton.

East Midlands Parkway is around 6km from Toton so the route will need to be very substantially different in the area from the one already consulted on around there surely?

It's infuriating that a site at Ratcliffe-on-Soar might be chosen over one surrounded by an urban area with land already available and with significant work done already on local transport connections.

 

[D6130]

It's infuriating that a site at Ratcliffe-on-Soar might be chosen over one surrounded by an urban area with land already available and with significant work done already on local transport connections.

I wonder if they're planning to save money by utilising the site of Ratcliffe power station, which is due to close in the next couple of years?

 

[city dweller]

East Midlands Parkway is around 6km from Toton so the route will need to be very substantially different in the area from the one already consulted on around there surely?

It's infuriating that a site at Ratcliffe-on-Soar might be chosen over one surrounded by an urban area with land already available and with significant work done already on local transport connections.

The Rail Needs Assessment Report last year by NIC raised the idea of East Midlands Parkway. This is what it said.

Under different scenarios, it is less clear to the Commission that a hub station at Toton would still be the right solution for improving connectivity across the Midlands. Setting aside costs, Toton requires the development of a new site on railway brownfield, requiring the relocation of existing rail facilities and extensive work on nearby junctions. In addition, its location means that high speed services would not directly serve any of the cities in the East Midlands, although Midlands Connect have proposed schemes that would provide direct services into Nottingham, with a new junction on the HS2 line and link to the conventional railway.

An alternative option for consideration would be to improve the existing East Midlands Parkway station next to the Ratcliffe Power Station site, which was previously considered for the eastern leg of HS2 Phase 2b. This is included in the packages prioritising regional links, as using East Midlands Parkway, would better enable faster rail services between Nottingham and Birmingham (potentially 27 minutes, compared to 53 minutes via the Toton East Midlands Hub or 33 minutes with Midlands Connect’s conventional compatible services in addition to Toton).

This could still enable development at Ratcliffe and the East Midlands Airport, which is a major hub for freight and therefore has scope for employment linked to logistics and other services. East Midlands Parkway also benefits from being situated on the Midland Main Line, allowing it to still accommodate improved connectivity to and between Derby, Nottingham and Leicester. This option could also make investment in East Midlands cities, particularly Nottingham, more attractive. Further work would need to be undertaken on this option, including to explore opportunities for development and regeneration under this scenario.

 

[Starmill]

The Rail Needs Assessment Report last year by NIC raised the idea of East Midlands Parkway. This is what it said.

Yes, it's noticeable how diverting the Nottingham to London fast trains to London Euston HS2 via East Midlands Parkway only delivers a 6 minute saving over changing at Toton. It also makes connectivity worse for Derby, but they conveniently didn't mention that. And finally it leaves a bizarre wasted 'shadow' slot every half hour that can only run between Loughborough and London St Pancras.

You can bet they won't allocate money to any expansion at Nottingham Midland...

 

[brad465]

The BBC are now covering the expected scrapping of HS2's eastern leg, a decision the Northern Powerhouse partnership says is a mistake:

HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

Plans to extend the eastern leg of the high speed network will be ditched in favour of new shorter links.

www.bbc.co.uk

The government is set to scrap the eastern leg of HS2 between the Midlands and Leeds, sources have told the BBC.
The Transport Department will instead announce a new rail plan on Thursday, involving £96bn of funding for high speed routes in the North and Midlands.
Sources said the impact of scrapping the Leeds leg of HS2 would make journeys longer by 20 minutes.
But the government is set to argue its new plans will deliver comparable benefits and be quicker and cheaper.
A source told the BBC political correspondent Nick Eardley they would show an "enormous amount of common sense".
High Speed 2 is a planned new high-speed railway line, originally meant to connect London with the city centres of Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.
However, Conservative MPs have expressed concerns about the cost of the eastern leg connecting the West Midlands and Leeds, and there have been rumours it would be scrapped since the summer.
According to a report in the Sunday Times this weekend, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps will instead announce two shorter high-speed routes created in part by upgrading existing lines. One will run between Leeds and Sheffield, another from Birmingham to East Midlands Parkway.
The government is also expected to put money aside to explore setting up a tram service for Leeds.

The Northern Powerhouse Partnership, a group of northern local authorities and business leaders, said the decision to scrap the Leeds leg of HS2 was a mistake.
Director Henri Murison said: "The reported loss of any of the new line on the eastern leg of HS2 is damaging, reducing the benefits of the section being built now between Birmingham and London.
"Without the benefits to areas such as Yorkshire and the North East, HS2's status as a project to drive the whole of the UK is undermined considerably."

 

[47421]

Few years ago Network Rail wrote to DfT saying that TransPennine Upgrade would cause massive disruption for ~4 years, this being one of the reasons given to support NPR as a new line. Wonder what the disruption impact will turn out to be when NPR is confirmed as not happening

TransPennine £2.9bn rail upgrade will cause 'major disruption'

A leaked letter reveals the £2.9bn improvement will cause five years of significant disruption.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ianno87]

Few years ago Network Rail wrote to DfT saying that TransPennine Upgrade would cause massive disruption for ~4 years, this being one of the reasons given to support NPR as a new line. Wonder what the disruption impact will turn out to be when NPR is confirmed as not happening

TransPennine £2.9bn rail upgrade will cause 'major disruption'

A leaked letter reveals the £2.9bn improvement will cause five years of significant disruption.

www.bbc.co.uk

But sounds like we're be getting TransPennine Upgrade anyway as a shorter-term measure, regardless of whether NPR subsequently follows or not. So the argument doesn't hold.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, it's noticeable how diverting the Nottingham to London fast trains to London Euston HS2 via East Midlands Parkway only delivers a 6 minute saving over changing at Toton. It also makes connectivity worse for Derby, but they conveniently didn't mention that. And finally it leaves a bizarre wasted 'shadow' slot every half hour that can only run between Loughborough and London St Pancras.

How do you get to that? Toton is 53min but you'd have to add a connection time (10min?) and a train journey to Nottingham (about 20min).

London-Sheffield HS2 trains could run via Derby.

 

[Starmill]

How do you get to that? Toton is 53min but you'd have to add a connection time (10min?) and a train journey to Nottingham (about 20min).

London-Sheffield HS2 trains could run via Derby.

It's the time using the Midlands Connect 'Access to Toton' report.

And yes perhaps they could do. But is there capacity for that plus trains from Derby to Leicester? You have to wonder with all of these things what the cost of modifications to enable the HS2 services to run on the existing infrastructure is, and what capacity sacrifices that fundamentally entails.

 

[Roast Veg]

East Midlands Parkway is around 6km from Toton so the route will need to be very substantially different in the area from the one already consulted on around there surely?

The route already crossed just to the north of EMP before Trent Junction, so the formation only needs to join the MML about 2km south of that crossover, just south of Ratcliffe itself. This assumes, however, that the West/North curve into EMD isn't too tight, otherwise a new route to the south of Kegworth would be required. It looks to be broadly similar to the same curve at Water Orton, but that's just by my eyeballing it.

I wonder if they're planning to save money by utilising the site of Ratcliffe power station, which is due to close in the next couple of years?

I don't think that's a specific driver. For starters, I think the budget constraints would want to keep remodelling of the Trent Junctions to a minimum, and with what I expect to be far fewer HS2 services to EMD than originally planned, you might even get away with just extending all the platforms at EMD (2x400m, 2x240m) and adding a short platform 5 for the Ivanhoe services to loop into. Add crossovers (or slew) from fast to slow just south of your HS2 connection and the MML "fasts" can use platforms 3/4 and still access both Derby and Sheffield.

 

[dosxuk]

You don't spend £ hundreds of millions on planning. Especially for something which requires an Order under the Transport & Works Act, or indeed something larger (such as a hybrid bill) where that consents process has not actually begun. NPR and phase 2b haven't reached that stage yet, although we may see a High Speed Rail (Crewe - Manchester) Bill being deposited soon after the publication of the IRP.

You may of course spend (or suffer the opportunity cost of) such sums on land.

I know at least two people who got very good compulsory purchase deals on their homes in the Chesterfield area as a result of the plans. Even if those homes are now going to be resold they'll be unlikely to make the money back. It'll also be interesting to find out what happened to the brand new housing estate that was on the redirected Sheffield bypass route and the people who owned homes there - did people move into their dream new home, only to be told it was getting demolished for a high-speed rail route, move out and now find that house is going to be left alone?

 

[Starmill]

I know at least two people who got very good compulsory purchase deals on their homes in the Chesterfield area as a result of the plans. Even if those homes are now going to be resold they'll be unlikely to make the money back. It'll also be interesting to find out what happened to the brand new housing estate that was on the redirected Sheffield bypass route and the people who owned homes there - did people move into their dream new home, only to be told it was getting demolished for a high-speed rail route, move out and now find that house is going to be left alone?

I quite agree. The land-based costs will be significant. I guess we'll have to wait and see how much might no longer be useful.

This assumes, however, that the West/North curve into EMD isn't too tight, otherwise a new route to the south of Kegworth would be required.

I will be very surprised if that's not required. But then I've been wrong before and there's an awful lot of contradictory reporting going on.

Or is a new station effectively going to be built alongside the west of the existing one over what is currently car parking? It's unclear to me what level HS2 was at to cross the Trent, relative to the MML.

At least some journalists appear to have mistaken Toton for East Midlands Parkway.

 

[tomuk]

East Midlands Parkway is around 6km from Toton so the route will need to be very substantially different in the area from the one already consulted on around there surely?

It's infuriating that a site at Ratcliffe-on-Soar might be chosen over one surrounded by an urban area with land already available and with significant work done already on local transport connections.

The proposed HS2 route was to cross the MML near to Ratcliffe on Soar/EMP Parkway and follow the Erewash Valley Line through Toton. As far as I'm aware no land is ready in Long Eaton, Toton TMD/Yard is still there and there was additional proposed demolition. There was a proposal to extend the NET tram.

Ratcliffe on Soar/EMP Parkway isn't that bad a location as it would give access to all the lines a Trent Junction so could go to Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield, it is near to East Midlands airport and the associated Freight depots/warehousing plus there will the site of the soon to be decommisioned power station. And it is next to M1, A50, A453

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The route already crossed just to the north of EMP before Trent Junction, so the formation only needs to join the MML about 2km south of that crossover, just south of Ratcliffe itself. This assumes, however, that the West/North curve into EMD isn't too tight, otherwise a new route to the south of Kegworth would be required. It looks to be broadly similar to the same curve at Water Orton, but that's just by my eyeballing it.

I would have thought a route diverging from the MML between Kegworth and Kingston upon Soar before crossing the M1 and broadly following the A42(M) corridor to Birmingham. Would also avoid the need for a tunnel under the airport

 

[tomuk]

I would have thought a route diverging from the MML between Kegworth and Kingston upon Soar before crossing the M1 and broadly following the A42(M) corridor to Birmingham. Would also avoid the need for a tunnel under the airport

HS2 follows the A42/M1/A453 corridor before crossing the A453 and running parallel with the MML to Toton. There is only a very small tunnel, almost a bridge, for the runway approach lights east of the M1 at East Midlands Airport not 'a tunnel under the airport'

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/1460334195746746372?s=21

 

[Halifaxlad]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

Im presuming he's basing his remarks from the option of the NIC report that has been chosen.

No-doubt there will be many things from the DFT that he doesn't know. Because based on that neither serves Bradford or is a parkway! Not improving links to Bradford one way or another would be a betrayal!

 

[Purple Orange]

Im presuming he's basing his remarks from the option of the NIC report that has been chosen.

No-doubt there will be many things from the DFT that he doesn't know. Because based on that neither serves Bradford or is a parkway! Not improving links to Bradford one way or another would be a betrayal!

A betrayal to Bradford, but nobody else.

 

[nr758123]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

If, as he quotes, its a 40 mile long new line from Manchester to near Huddersfield then it's not exactly a direct route.

 

[HSTEd]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

That would pretty much make Leeds-London and Leeds-Birmingham traffic route via Manchester, whether the trains are direct or not.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That would pretty much make Leeds-London and Leeds-Birmingham traffic route via Manchester, whether the trains are direct or not.

Would this new line between Manchester and Huddersfield be without any intermediate stations and what would the average speed be expected to be upon it?

 

[backontrack]

Would this new line between Manchester and Huddersfield be without any intermediate stations and what would the average speed be expected to be upon it?

We don't know yet.