Branding and marketing blunders or failures on the railway.

[YorksLad12]

Never had a problem with that one. Whether it officially means that or not, "coast to city" is a reasonable description of it.

See, I thought it was "capital to coast" - so perhaps not that good! Or is it "c(ity) to see"?

 

[Bletchleyite]

See, I thought it was "capital to coast" - so perhaps not that good! Or is it "c(ity) to see"?

I think the idea was that it was a few things. But I definitely don't think it's a bad one.

 

[pdeaves]

I think the idea was that it was a few things

I'm sure I read at the time an official statement that the c2c name can, essentially, mean whatever you want it to mean. OK, that was wrapped up in marketing speak, but that was the gist of it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I wouldn't call XC a branding/marketing failure, I would call it a planning and operational failure (over many years) which has dragged the branding into the mud.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2021 ==



The only oddity about Silverlink was that despite the name the livery was green and purple! (It was also first to highlight the doors, long before PRM TSI required it or indeed even existed!)

It didn't do much marketing at all, really, but does a commuter operation really need to to that extent? The Metro lines had a poor reputation, but the County lines had a reputation for conservative competence around these parts and it wasn't disliked as much as some commuter operations (which as most commuters hate commuting is probably an accolade).

An interesting comment on Silverlink County - which was marketed quite hard on the off peak Birmingham market , especially when it was increased to 2 an hour (4 for £25 etc) , that bit got most of the management attention to be air and the service operated pretty well (a few issues with the early days of Railtrack , but it lost it big time when the real work started on WCML renewals etc. Fortunately I had moved on by then !

Hard to market the Metro lines - as those who paid generally used Oyster , there were many of course who did not pay. In inner North London about 20% of the population turned over each year , so hard to build loyalty or develop it much. I concentrated on punctuality and reliabilty - both decent enough , cleanliness of the trains and a dedicated anti-graffiti programme.

 

[XAM2175]

Never had a problem with that one. Whether it officially means that or not, "coast to city" is a reasonable description of it.

I'm sure I read at the time an official statement that the c2c name can, essentially, mean whatever you want it to mean. OK, that was wrapped up in marketing speak, but that was the gist of it.

It was worse than that - the 'marketing speak' they wrapped it up in was that they liked to think it stood for "commitment to customers".

 

[MCR247]

This might be a stretch but I certainly see it as a failure.

The EMR sprinters had TrainFx installed for their PRM upgrades. The destination display on the front of the trains is in the same place it usually is, and is set up to display two (very small, equally sized) lines of text, and seemingly can only display that. So somewhere like Crewe, which could be shown quite large and boldly within the space given, is shown in small letters on the top line. To top it off, for no apparent reason it scrolls too.

This is a new system that was fitted in the last few years, when 375s and 377s have had superior displays fitted from new(!) and some Scotrail sprinters for at least 15 years now.

 

[py_megapixel]

This might be a stretch but I certainly see it as a failure.

The EMR sprinters had TrainFx installed for their PRM upgrades. The destination display on the front of the trains is in the same place it usually is, and is set up to display two (very small, equally sized) lines of text, and seemingly can only display that. So somewhere like Crewe, which could be shown quite large and boldly within the space given, is shown in small letters on the top line. To top it off, for no apparent reason it scrolls too.

I believe TrainFX is capable of displaying non-scrolling text on the exterior displays. It is also capable of displaying bold text taking up both lines. Unfortunately EMR must have chosen a silly configuration for theirs.

That's not excusing the general awfulness of TrainFX, though, which has many other problems that have been mentioned on this forum.

 

[norbitonflyer]

First Capital Connect, replacing the perfectly good Thameslink brand.

Agree about First Group. 'First class will be at the rear of the First Train on Platform one, the First Capital Connect train'.

"The first train on Platform 2 is not for public use. The First train will be the second train"

 

[krus_aragon]

I believe TrainFX is capable of displaying non-scrolling text on the exterior displays. It is also capable of displaying bold text taking up both lines. Unfortunately EMR must have chosen a silly configuration for theirs.

Or a simplistic, one-size-fits-all approach: if you make the text small and scroll it, every station name will fit. Customising per-station takes time, unfortunately.

On a related note, ATW's 158s displayed their destination (bilingually) on the front of each unit. After a refresh to new LED displays, they alternated between scrolling the destination and the operator's website. Unfortunately, with www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk being such a lengthy domain name, the screens spent most of their time not displaying their destination.

 

[CaptainBen]

Railplan 2020's messaging about 'more destinations' was a bad idea, given that in a lot of situations it actually meant reductions in the services between stations passengers actually wanted to travel between. And that's before you get to the catastrophe of actually implementing it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or a simplistic, one-size-fits-all approach: if you make the text small and scroll it, every station name will fit. Customising per-station takes time, unfortunately.

That just highlights how awful it is. Any decent system would take the destination provided and display it in the clearest manner automatically.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Surprised it didn't say: "By Arriva a DB Company a private joint-stock company with the Federal Republic of Germany"

I was on a CrossCountry train between Banbury and Oxford years ago which was rammed to the rafters and going nowhere slowly.

The voluble, slightly inebriated Irishman next to me was pontificating about the state of the trains and how nowhere else's railway was as bad as Britain. "They wouldn't do this in Germany. Angela Merkel wouldn't stand for this."

I told him that Angela Merkel was in charge of the train he was on.

By the time I left him at Oxford he was planning to write vituperative letters to everyone from the train guard up to Angela Merkel and possibly beyond.

 

[Mollman]

There seems to be some confusion with Northern Spirit, it was the name given by MTL Holdings to the Regional Railways North East franchise, but they did also create the TransPennine Express brand too so it wasn't all bad. As said elsewhere the livery was good and a lot better than the Arriva corporate livery brought in when MTL was rescued by them (the operator being re-named Arriva Trains Northern).

As for marketing failures how about Virgin's talking toilets, at least people were in the right place to be frightened! The biggest failure of that was the "I used to be a public toilet" line, which gives the impression that they were second hand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There seems to be some confusion with Northern Spirit, it was the name given by MTL Holdings to the Regional Railways North East franchise, but they did also create the TransPennine Express brand too so it wasn't all bad.

They didn't. The TPE brand has existed in some form long back into 1990s BR and possibly before.

 

[Mollman]

They didn't. The TPE brand has existed in some form long back into 1990s BR and possibly before.

Apologies, I had forgotten about the loco-hauled provincial trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apologies, I had forgotten about the loco-hauled provincial trains.

Regional Railways North East used it as well.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If you want a marketing failure you can’t get much better than this from a couple of weeks ago. A diesel bragging that it is a climate hero dragging a couple of electric locomotive 250 miles under the wires to an event demonstrating what the railway is doing to combat climate change! And just to make things worse the electric loco's had their pantographs up as though to say 'Look, we're electric loco's'.

66004 90034 90039 0Z02 Preston

Green liveried “climate hero” 66004 + 90034 + 90039 at Preston on 0Z02 08:01 Crewe Electric T.M.D. – Mossend Yard on 05/11/21. By the look of it 90039 is being named, and hopefully the colourful 90 duo will end up on the 4M25 / 4S47 circuit. Strangely the 2 90’s have their pantographs raised...

flic.kr

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Anyone think random non-geographical brand names may suit the railway better? We've had Silverlink, One & Virgin Trains and there's now Avanti & Lumo - If First hadn't lost the West Coast franchise it briefly won in 2010-ish, it would have been Horizon Trains!

Out of the ordinary names may be more attractive for standing out in the market which travellers most likely will recognise & remember as with Virgin Trains and now Lumo. Are things working out well for Avanti as a brand as it has a lot to live up to Virgin Trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are things working out well for Avanti as a brand as it has a lot to live up to Virgin Trains?

In short, no, but that's less because of the brand and more because the TOC is just that bit rubbish.

 

[YorksLad12]

They didn't. The TPE brand has existed in some form long back into 1990s BR and possibly before.

Apologies, I had forgotten about the loco-hauled provincial trains.

Regional Railways North East used it as well.

But MTL did paint the trains a slightly different colour. That the main thing

 

[John Luxton]

Mentioning branding I have always wondered by First group when they switched from First Great Western to GWR went for plain Brunswick green for the IETs and ordinary MUs.

The IETs and MUs would have really looked good in the old GWR chocolate and cream. The Brunswick green should have been used for locomotives and HST power cars, with perhaps the guards area being the change over to chocolate and cream rather as it was when they were in BR blue/grey/yellow.

I do like the the "Famous Five" posters - they do hark back to the golden days of the railway poster - but I think they did miss the obvious one.

We probably all know the "Speed to the West" poster with the King ay high speed - recreating that with an IET would have looked splendid.

 

[XAM2175]

The IETs and MUs would have really looked good in the old GWR chocolate and cream. The Brunswick green should have been used for locomotives and HST power cars, with perhaps the guards area being the change over to chocolate and cream rather as it was when they were in BR blue/grey/yellow.

I do like the the "Famous Five" posters - they do hark back to the golden days of the railway poster - but I think they did miss the obvious one.

Because it's meant to be discretely referential to the old style, not a direct recreation of it?

 

[tbtc]

I think that "blunders" and "failures" seems a bit harsh for some of these

In a lot of cases, the TOC were operating a combination of routes that didn't neatly fit into one name, so sometimes you need to be a bit vague - e.g. I wasn't a huge fan of First Capital Connect but you've got to recognise that it wasn't just the old Thameslink franchise, it was the "GN" bit of "WAGN", so to call the whole thing Thameslink might have confused people who'd previously associated all Thameslink trains as running across the river, which obviously wasn't going to be the case on a 313 into Moorgate

Avanti might sound daft, but what sensible and short name is there for it? Call it London Midland & Scottish if you want, but that'll annoy the Welsh (given that the franchise runs to Holyhead, as well as upsetting a few Scots who'd contend that it's making a third of the British land mass equivalent to one English city or one English region!)

Few TOCs fitted nearly into geographic boundaries (e.g. Thames Trains running to Gatwick, East Midlands Trains running to Liverpool, Northern running to Nottingham... just as the Northern Line serves the most southern station on the London Underground, but nor the most northern station!) - what's more important is a simple brand that people can understand (e.g. not every Cross Country service goes from one coast to the other, but people get the gist)

Other than Valley Lines and Island Line - those were both pretty simple names that explained what they did pretty well!

"One" is probably the most derided brand, but it was an attempt to show that it was combining Anglia, Great Eastern and the "WA" bit of WAGN, so I can see why a unifying name got the nod - it's just a shame that they went for the one that they did, because some other things about the franchise were quite good - I liked the way that each bit of the franchise had a separate colour scheme, but with a unifying livery of lots of stripes at the ends, to show that it all belonged together, that was a worthwhile idea

Doesn't matter what you brand a franchise though, some "witty" enthusiast will manage to spell something unsavoury out of the letters - you've got to ignore that kind of nonsense when coming up with a brand

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

There was a line called the 'little' North Western, I think Great or Grand sound better.

1978, centennial of the Bicycle Touring Club (CTC, Cycling uk), carriage of cycle by train was offered for nowt, you could get free tickets by post. Far too many people wanted to cycle by train and applied for tickets.

 

[Howard70]

I never understood why 'Apex' tickets were named that. They were presumably at the bottom price-wise while being the least flexible. In my mind it represents the very opposite of the apex of the ticketing structure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never understood why 'Apex' tickets were named that. They were presumably at the bottom price-wise while being the least flexible. In my mind it represents the very opposite of the apex of the ticketing structure.

It's a long-established travel industry term, an acronym of "Advance Purchase EXcursion". At the time airlines would have used it too.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I never understood why 'Apex' tickets were named that.

As @Bletchleyite has just mentioned, it was derived from Advanced purchase excursion fare, wasn't it?

 

[The DJ]

Where to start (with the obvious caveat that this is opinion)?

Avanti choosing a meaningless brand after years of the industry slowly switching over to geographical operator names. (Lumo get a pass due being OA, as do Grand Central, who don't actually serve anywhere in the centre of the country).

One, and also First, for obvious reasons.

Virgin. Sure, it's a "strong brand" (whatever the chuff that means!) but it's always been a stupid name for any business. I get the impression that Branson sniggers like Finbarr Saunders every time anyone says his company name. To me it's childish and puerile. Get in the sea!

Northern Spirit was a pretty rubbish name too... they had nice liveries though!

Branson chose the name for his original business - (vinyl) records by mail order - because him and his original team had no previous business experience (business "virgins"). From what I understand, anything named Virgin is 49% owned by a third party whom Branson has brought in to lighten his own load while still owning a majority of the company

 

[TravelDream]

Branson chose the name for his original business - (vinyl) records by mail order - because him and his original team had no previous business experience (business "virgins"). From what I understand, anything named Virgin is 49% owned by a third party whom Branson has brought in to lighten his own load while still owning a majority of the company

Virgin is a brand as much anything else, though, to be fair, they do majority own a couple of their more famous companies.
Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Holidays are both 51% owned by them.
Back in the day, Virgin had a 51% share of the XC and WC franchises in partnership with Stagecoach (short-lived Virgin East Coast was 90% Stagecoach).

 

[colchesterken]

I always thought C2C was stupid, good old LTS said what it
While I am at it could we call the new thing British Railways it is not Great B R we have Scot Rail and the Welsh are doing a local branding