Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting at somewhere like Carlisle? Possible.

Not simply possible, but the actual HS2 plan.

 

[ABB125]

Some slightly dodgy logic here from the report...

Under HS2 and NPR previous plans, the Midland Main Line and Transpennine route would not have seen electrification completed and towns such as Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Stalybridge would have seen little benefit, or even a worsening in their service. Under the IRP, these and other towns could see improved services in terms of destinations served, electrified trains, higher frequencies, more seats and/or faster services.

MML and TPE electrification were originally going ahead as well as HS2, before Network Rail demonstrated their... lack of experience with electrification.

 

[stuu]

Living in the Birmingham region the northwest always seemed pretty inaccessible by rail, and I was hoping HS2 would change that. But it seems that is not a priority ... At least the woeful links between east and west midlands still look to be improved (for now).

Do you mean north east?

 

[Roast Veg]

Not simply possible, but the actual HS2 plan.

Not via Warrington it wasn't. We shall see how that impacts on timetabling - I have no idea.

 

[Furton]

So no electrification of the CLC line, but electrifying the Fiddlers Ferry line and a new HS line from Warrington to Manchester. From a selfish perspective, would that go through South Parkway?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not sure how East Midlands Parkway would count as either Central Derby or Central Nottingham. Yes, services from both of those locations pass through EMP

Exactly - HS2 services would do so too - pass through EMP on their way to Derby and/or Nottingham

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not via Warrington it wasn't. We shall see how that impacts on timetabling - I have no idea.

It is inconceivable that direct Euston-Glasgow services would not be provided. As Glasgow Central can't take a 400m train, just running 200m would be a wasted path. Therefore these services are a given in my view.

 

[achmelvic]

Some slightly dodgy logic here from the report...


MML and TPE electrification were originally going ahead as well as HS2, before Network Rail demonstrated their... lack of experience with electrification.

If I trusted them with such Machiavellian plotting I'd say the MML and TP electrification were canned before just so they could be brought back as 'new' improvements now when they scraped HS2 leg to Leeds but suspect it's actually just they've been grabbed as a handy 'replacement'.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Analysis of the NPR route through Warrington says this (p100):

reinstatement of Warrington Bank Quay low level station;
upgrading and electrifying existing lines between Warrington and Liverpool;
and enhancing Liverpool Lime Street station

So that effectively means a new electrified Liverpool-Warrington BQLL-Manchester route, with Ditton-Warrington upgraded, and new build to Rostherne to join HS2.
Good luck finding a vaguely straight route through Warrington's many obstacles, including a Mersey/Ship Canal crossing.

 

[Bigman]

Not getting how electrifying Leeds – New Pudsey – Bradford is going to work. Every train that works on this route is going to either York or Hull in the East and Halifax, Manchester, Chester or Blackpool in the West. None of the lines to the West are being electrified so presumably they must be planning to use bi-modes. I do also wonder in this means that LNER will revert back to using Interchange to take advantage of the quicker journey.

 

[Dixie]

HS2 trains from Liverpool south running from Ditton Junction passed Fidler's Ferry through Warrington Bank Quay Low Level and on to the new HS2 line sounds, well, completely bonkers, just to serve Warrington. Can't see how it could possibly be quicker than going via Runcorn.

Not sure that will ever be built. And if it is, I'm not sure I'll be alive to see it

 

[WiredUp]

Well, the average speed on a London - Leeds service at the moment is about 85 mph (133 mins to cover 185 miles), to hit 110 mins (20 minute saving) would mean increasing that average to nearer 100 mph.

The ECML's pretty straight between London and Doncaster, so I'd expect there to be some capacity increases and tidying up of junctions. More of what was done both in the 60s and 80s as part of speeding up journeys along there.

I'd imagine it will resurrect much of the earlier L2E4 work including Newark Grade Separation, bundled in with PSU2, Digital Signalling and the NPR work for York - Newcastle. An approach and electrification from Hambleton Junction westwards to Leeds will be faster than accessing via Wakefield Westgate too. In terms of what is needed for 140mph as someone asked earlier - lots, all yours for say £3-5bn:

- OLE upgrading including fitting Carrier Wire Neutral Sections, HS2P conversion, modification/improvement of clearances and lots of Traction Power supply reinforcement. The equipment on the east coast has been receiving some funding in the past to upgrade to Mk3D and improve it's resilience in known trouble spots. Probably some lifting or rebuilding of certain overbridges to gain the necessary clearances.
- Closure of open platform faces in potential 140mph sections (Biggleswade, Sandy, Stevenage and Northallerton)
- High security palisade fencing throughout
- Aerodynamic modifications in tunnels
- Closure of any Level Crossings in >125mph sections. Some are already in play or anticipated (Lindsells, Love Lane (for Wintringham), Copmanthorpe No.2, Thirsk Station if it gets AFA funding to develop beyond design/feasibility).
- In cab signalling
- Civils works (underbridges, any weak earthworks etc.)
- Track replacement for any pre 1978 CWR and any non pandrol fittings. Lots of track fettling to improve ride quality.
- Swing nose points on the Fast Lines
- Train to structure gauging.
- Probably extra access points as you won't be red zone working on 140mph lines.

Sections to upgrade to 140mph?

1. Woolmer Green to Connington with a slight reduction through Offord
2. New England to Stoke Tunnel
3. Sections north of Grantham to just south of Bawtry where curvature allows.
4. Doncaster all the way through the Selby Diversion up to Colton/Copmanthorpe Area
5. Skelton Junction to around Croft on Tees
6. Perhaps north of Newcastle from say Littlehoughton to Spittal

Other schemes will help in terms of capacity:

- You'd also want to resurrect HW4T; it will also in any event be needed at least as far north as the proposed site of the Alconbury Weald station.
- Grade separation at Doncaster to/from Leeds
- Remodelling York North Throat/Skelton Junction
- Any freight loops between York and Newcastle
- Grade separation at Northallerton
- Darlington Station remodelling (funded)

Forget Closing Welwyn North and adding extra Viaducts and tunnels in the area; I suspect these will be managed by cab-signalling and timetabling modelling.

 

[Skymonster]

Toton is still getting a station for local and regional services.

yes, but still a daft idea - what regional services? With Erewash Valley not up for electrification, it‘d be diesels - I guess they could extend Nottingham-Derby into Toton with a reversal (which would drive up local journey times and push people onto the Red Arrow bus), or I suppose re-route the Sheffield (Leeds)-Nottingham, but otherwise Toton is a bit of a dead end.

 

[quantinghome]

Some slightly dodgy logic here from the report...

That's the understatement of the century. There's no real plan in it, and a huge amount of spin. It's a really deceitful document in truth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Analysis of the NPR route through Warrington says this (p100):

With regard to the comment, the straight route through Warrington via BQ LL exists and is not built on. That is very clear from a map.

 

[HSTEd]

I think they've been agreed by ministers who have to deal with the reality of funding and justifying all of this, against measurable benefits.

The reality that it is much easier to buy votes with day to day spending than capital expenditure.

That's all this is.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Its suspected a general election is coming soon. So this is just more empty promises and lies to buy votes.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The bit on page 16 re Toton is comical

"We will further invest in local transport at Toton and in the East Midlands.

HS2 will now serve Nottingham and Derby city centres directly rather than with a parkway stop between the two cities at Toton, which would have required passengers for Nottingham and Derby to change trains. The Government will also accelerate transport improvements at Toton, such as a station for local/ regional services, with delivery subject to significant private sector investment – on a 50:50 match-funded basis with the taxpayer – coming forward at the site and developer contributions. We will accelerate plans for an East Midlands Delivery Vehicle covering Toton and other regional regeneration sites. We will look to exploit any linkages with other investment in Nottinghamshire, including the proposals for the Robin Hood Line Extension and reopening the Maid Marian line."

What is the point in a regional station without any High Speed onward connections?

 

[HSTEd]

Its suspected a general election is coming soon. So this is just more empty promises and lies to buy votes.

Well ultimately that is mostly what HS2 has been from the start.

It just appears in 2009 out of nowhere so the Labour Government can use it as a poison pill for David Cameron

 

[NoRoute]

Looking at the phasing this is in essence an Electrification Plan combined with finishing HS2 upto Manchester and some ECML upgrades, everything else is pushed out well into the future, post-2030 or even post-2040, so far out that it isn't really a commitment to anything at all.

The electrification has to be done to meet various carbon goals and commitments, HS2 has to be built further than Birmingham to make any sense at all and Manchester provides the most value, ECML as a low cost alternative for speeding up services to Leeds and the North. Everything else kicked into the long grass until it becomes clearer what is happening with rail passenger numbers and the deficit, plus it becomes another government's problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the point in a regional station without any High Speed onward connections?

What is the point of any regional station?

The point is that Toton gets a railway station, which it presently lacks. Without HS2 connections from Sheffield and Derby, most demand will be relatively local, though sadly serving Nottingham would be difficult due to the line layout, so it risks being a bit of a Polesworth (from which most demand is to Brum).

 

[norbitonflyer]

What amazes me is how London-centric it all is. Instead of cutting an hour off the time from Leeds to Birmingham, we'll speed up Leeds-London by 20 minutes. Maybe.

See page 33. Leeds to Birmingham in 89 minutes. Not a saving of an hour, I agree, but 31 minutes saved (on a shorter journey than to London) is a bigger reduction (25% as against 15%).

 

[Roast Veg]

yes, but still a daft idea - what regional services? With Erewash Valley not up for electrification, it‘d be diesels - I guess they could extend Nottingham-Derby into Toton with a reversal (which would drive up local journey times and push people onto the Red Arrow bus), or I suppose re-route the Sheffield (Leeds)-Nottingham, but otherwise Toton is a bit of a dead end.

What is the point in a regional station without any High Speed onward connections?

Whilst you could divert the services via Ilkeston that way, Toton will be connected to Nottingham by an (admittedly slow) tram, and a link from Alfreton, Langley Mill, Ilkeston, and Toton through EMD (for high speed services) and perhaps onward to supplement Ivanhoe line services would be quite welcome. Speculatively, you could tie it up with the reopened line via Barrow Hill to save on units and crew, which is on the cards. Such a service will almost certainly be diesel, pending any other upgrades.

 

[6Gman]

Great. 'Only' 11 years to wait. For comparison, ECML electrification was approved in 1984 and open to Leeds by 1988. The idea that this 'plan' is delivering things quicker is pure spin.

Some of the improvements are eye-wateringly slow.

I have a document somewhere issued when I was in my 30s showing a BR electrification plan which included Trans Pennine.

Looks as though I'll be well into my 80s when it gets finished.

 

[Howardh]

Was there any mention of the Castlefield Corridor bottleneck? As I understand the plans trains could avoid this by going via Warrington/Airport/HS2 on a new line towards Leeds - but will that call at Piccadilly or any new central Manchester station?

Will Wigan > Manchester lines (via Bolton and Atherton) eventually be electrified?

 

[A0]

XC is woeful, but that is fairly easy to fix.

Yes, yes, yes, we get it. You don't like Arriva and you don't like Voyagers and therefore the combination of the two into a single TOC is toxic.

Try addressing the point - which is basic service which is at least hourly between Birmingham and the "North West" or "East Midlands" isn't "woeful".

 

[LOL The Irony]

Now the leading story on the BBC 1 o'clock news.

 

[A0]

so, who thinks that these plans have been agreed by ministers who have not travelled the routes involved, regularly?

So you don't think the rail industry have had any involvement in shaping these decisions? It's all a few "out of touch ministers" and "overpaid London based civil servants in their ivory towers" that have made these decisions with no thought about their practical implementation ? Interesting.

 

[ABB125]

The report appears to not directly mention (at least, not in the bits I've read so far) the cost of the HS2 leg from the junction with Phase 1 to East Midlands Parkway - instead it lumps it together with the upgrades of the MML and ECML, for a total cost of £12.8 billion. I wonder why this is? Perhaps the cost of the HS2 line is quite low, which would lead to questions about why the rest of it had been scrapped?

 

[liam456]

I'm just happy to be getting some rail investment! For too long has our eco-response been about sticks, so roll on the carrots!