Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[Bald Rick]

They're not. On the "traditional" XC service it's 1tph from Manchester (down from 2), 1tph from the Oxford corridor (down from 2), 1tph from Plymouth/Bristol (down from 2), 1tph from Newcastle (down from 2). So on the core legs, I make that 50% of the pre-Covid timetable - basically back to the pre-Pumpkin days, just with worse connections at New Street. Overall, it's probably a bit more than 50%, but no way is it 80% or anything like it

// Checks some data //

You’re quite right.

In the Pre Covid timetable, Cross Country planned to run 301 trains in passenger service each weekday.

In the current timetable (before these changes), they planned to run 238 trains in passenger service each weekday. That’s only 79%.

Apologies.

 

[Goldfish62]

// Checks some data //

You’re quite right.

In the Pre Covid timetable, Cross Country planned to run 301 trains in passenger service each weekday.

In the current timetable (before these changes), they planned to run 238 trains in passenger service each weekday. That’s only 79%.

Apologies.

If you're playing the selective numbers game like that then Cornwall only has 33% of its pre-Covid service.

 

[43096]

// Checks some data //

You’re quite right.

In the Pre Covid timetable, Cross Country planned to run 301 trains in passenger service each weekday.

In the current timetable (before these changes), they planned to run 238 trains in passenger service each weekday. That’s only 79%.

Apologies.

But, as I have pointed out, on the core 'X' through New Street to Manchester, Bristol, Newcastle and Reading for the bulk of the day, it's a 50% service and that's what the bulk of passengers will see. With poor connections between the two "legs". I suspect - but I'm not going to go and check further for the benefit of a sarcastic know-it-all - the figures are bumped up by the Turbostar routes.

Now, there is certainly a case for running that 50% service, with double length trains as it saves paths, reduces congestion, improves punctuality and reduces the number of staff needed. It just needs better connections between the services - maybe more like how it was before Virgin screwed it all up.

 

[Horizon22]

If you're playing the selective numbers game like that then Cornwall only has 33% of its pre-Covid service.

I'd say giving the overall picture is anything but "selective". Of course an average masks extremes though.

 

[Peterthegreat]

// Checks some data //

You’re quite right.

In the Pre Covid timetable, Cross Country planned to run 301 trains in passenger service each weekday.

In the current timetable (before these changes), they planned to run 238 trains in passenger service each weekday. That’s only 79%.

Apologies.

They may be running 79% of the trains but I suspect train miles are under 60%. After all around half of trains on the Edinburgh to Plymouth route only run between Newcastle and Bristol.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you're playing the selective numbers game like that then Cornwall only has 33% of its pre-Covid service.

How can it be selective when it’s the whole operation? It’s the very opposite!

I agree that some routes have a lower than average level of service. But that’s averages for you. And most of the reductions from tomorrow are on the routes that were running a near full service.

They may be running 79% of the trains but I suspect train miles are under 60%. After all around half of trains on the Edinburgh to Plymouth route only run between Newcastle and Bristol.

Given that almost the whole fleet is still diagrammed, I’d be surprised if vehicle mileage isn’t somewhere in the region of 90%.

 

[D9006]

It wouldn’t cause an issue as such as all Rest Day Working is completely voluntary.

Perhaps the rail industry should come in line with bus industry and hgv industry the job runs Monday to Sunday so working a 5 over 7 instead of a 5 over 6. Hgv and psv drivers wages combined wouldn’t equal the salary of a train driver, so don’t expect any sympathy

 

[Neo9320]

Perhaps the rail industry should come in line with bus industry and hgv industry the job runs Monday to Sunday so working a 5 over 7 instead of a 5 over 6. Hgv and psv drivers wages combined wouldn’t equal the salary of a train driver, so don’t expect any sympathy

Maybe HGV & PSV drivers should spend 2 years plus in training…

 

[Goldfish62]

How can it be selective when it’s the whole operation? It’s the very opposite!

Because it's quoting number of services with no relation to mileage.

The fact is that the services on the core of the network, where most passengers travel are reduced by 50%.,eg

Reading - Birmingham : 50%
Birmingham - Newcastle : 50%
Birmingham - Manchester : 50%
Bristol - Birmingham : 50%
Bournemouth - Reading : 50%.

Maybe HGV & PSV drivers should spend 2 years plus in training…

Ridiculous argument. If you want to relate length of training to salary consider this :

Paramedic training: 3-4 years, average salary £25.5k.

 

[Neo9320]

Because it's quoting number of services with no relation to mileage.

The fact is that the services on the core of the network, where most passengers travel are reduced by 50%.,eg

Reading - Birmingham : 50%
Birmingham - Newcastle : 50%
Birmingham - Manchester : 50%
Bristol - Birmingham : 50%
Bournemouth - Reading : 50%.


Ridiculous argument. If you want to relate length of training to salary consider this :

Paramedic training: 3-4 years, average salary £25.5k.

Ridiculous response…you’re comparing NHS (who we all know and agree are underpaid) to transport…

 

[dk1]

Perhaps the rail industry should come in line with bus industry and hgv industry the job runs Monday to Sunday so working a 5 over 7 instead of a 5 over 6. Hgv and psv drivers wages combined wouldn’t equal the salary of a train driver, so don’t expect any sympathy

Did I ever say I wanted any? Ridiculous comment.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ridiculous response…you’re comparing NHS (who we all know and agree are underpaid) to transport…

You're comparing two completely different driving jobs. I'm highlighting a third (paramedics drive ambulances often at great speed with something skill).

 

[Killingworth]

Because it's quoting number of services with no relation to mileage.

The fact is that the services on the core of the network, where most passengers travel are reduced by 50%.,eg

Reading - Birmingham : 50%
Birmingham - Newcastle : 50%
Birmingham - Manchester : 50%
Bristol - Birmingham : 50%
Bournemouth - Reading : 50%.

I haven't looked at statistics but know I'll struggle to get a XC service from Chesterfield. I also know I'll probably have to go via Leeds from Sheffield to get to Newcastle taking me 20 minutes longer than via Doncaster. The lack of that train via Doncaster reduces connectivity between Sheffield and Doncaster, leaving a service of 3 trains in about 12 minutes and then a gap of about 48 minutes until the next.

However, we enjoyed a recent day trip from Chesterfield to Cheltenham on HSTs in both directions. The journey wasn't cheap and no catering.

An under invested and too often overlooked TOC.

We'll be taking trips to the southwest in 2022. It will take longer but will avoid changes. We'll pay a little extra to be able to enjoy full dining on heritage special trains. Interestingly the full dining packages are usually the first to sell out.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Perhaps the rail industry should come in line with bus industry and hgv industry the job runs Monday to Sunday so working a 5 over 7 instead of a 5 over 6. Hgv and psv drivers wages combined wouldn’t equal the salary of a train driver, so don’t expect any sympathy

What’s this obsession with people on this forum believing all Railway Staff only work Monday to Saturday? I’m a Train Driver who has worked for three different TOCs, at every one of those companies Sundays have been inside the normal working week.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t have a problem with that.

 

[Bald Rick]

The fact is that the services on the core of the network

The fact is that the Cross Country network is bigger than those routes.

 

[dk1]

What’s this obsession with people on this forum believing all Railway Staff only work Monday to Saturday? I’m a Train Driver who has worked for three different TOCs, at every one of those companies Sundays have been inside the normal working week.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t have a problem with that.

Sunday is outside the working week for us at my TOC as was voted against. Might be surprising for some but it’s the only day I really enjoy coming to work.

 

[6Gman]

That's not what my contract says its how most of us in senior roles in public and private sectors are expected to work. If you have to work late to finish off important work or show flexibility that's what you do. It's called earning your money.

To hear drivers being paid £60k per annum plus moaning about having to be flexible falls on deaf ears with most of the population.

As long as your not being asked to break the law in regards hours driving/rest periods what is the problem.

Bus drivers on £22k a year have to be more flexible. Its wrong. And most passengers are fed up of this 1970s attitude shown by rail staff.

Why should we all suffer because staff being very well paid are refusing to be flexible. Culture change needed.

No. Contract change needed. And, happily, we are still in a situation where there are restrictions on contracts being changed unilaterally.

If employer and employee enter into a contract then any variation should be by mutual agreement.

 

[fodphil]

I get paid less than a train driver but if I have to deliver a project and work late/weekends (unpaid) i do what I have to do to get it over the line.

The amount drivers are paid I would expect you to be highly flexible and go the extra mile at all times.

You guys need to get in the real world!

You need to get a better job

 

[6Gman]

Most train crew are flexible and are prepared to work extra to keep the job moving. However there is a massive difference between that and working every rest day.

Having worked as management dealing with traincrew I would endorse this general point (with the proviso that clearly some rest days cannot be worked for safety reasons).

I could name (but won't, in case they are still doing it ) a traincrew depot that happily accepted a "creative" interpretation of the manning agreement to "keep the job moving" as @Peterthegreat says. Not as a one off but as something they were willing to do day after day, week after week for as long as necessary.

So it's all down to ASLEF and the drivers wanting to change the status quo and causing this unbelievable situation?

My understanding is that management (XC) having signed up to an agreement have, in the view of the union, not been observing the terms of that agreement. The agreement had a fixed end date, which has now been reached. So there is no agreement.

The implication is that the union is unwilling to renew the agreement without a certainty that it will be followed.

(Whether these are the precise circumstances I have no way of knowing for certain but it's the impression I get. And I'm ex railway management, who had to face ASLEF across the table on occasion.)

 

[bramling]

Have XC stopped recruiting so numbers have dropped naturally and not been replaced?

The answer to that will depend on how much training of new drivers XC have been able to carry out over the last 18 months, in particular in respect of restrictions on two people in a cab. Some TOCs have managed to do more, others less.

To balance that there will have been people planning to leave or retire during the last 18 months. You can add to that some who may have brought their retirement forward due to Covid, and perhaps subtract the odd one who deferred it.

If training hasn’t kept up with departures then there will be a shortfall in headcount. Even more of a shortfall if the TOC was relying on RDW in the first place.

 

[O L Leigh]

See post #237.

 

[Falcon1200]

Personally, I find it odd that there needs to be an agreement between company and staff that enables individual staff to work extra shifts. I think most people who do rostered work in other industries will think similarly; there was certainly no need for an agreement in the other three industries I have worked in where I worked a roster. If you wanted to do extra shifts, you let the managers know and they called you in when required.

I agree, and that is how it worked throughout my railway career, with the slight difference that it was up to staff to advise when they were unavailable for overtime, in which case they would not be asked. Even when you were asked to work there was no obligation to agree, and although some managers could be very persuasive, staff could not be forced to work if they did not want to*. Is this the area where the XC/ASLEF agreement differs, ie were staff obliged to work even when not wanting to ?

*Note; An exception applied to Sunday shifts which were outside the working week but were rostered and therefore had to be worked if no cover could be arranged.

 

[dk1]

I agree, and that is how it worked throughout my railway career, with the slight difference that it was up to staff to advise when they were unavailable for overtime, in which case they would not be asked. Even when you were asked to work there was no obligation to agree, and although some managers could be very persuasive, staff could not be forced to work if they did not want to*. Is this the area where the XC/ASLEF agreement differs, ie were staff obliged to work even when not wanting to ?

*Note; An exception applied to Sunday shifts which were outside the working week but were rostered and therefore had to be worked if no cover could be arranged.

I cannot imagine any drivers feeling obliged or bullied into working rest days or overtime. It does not happen at any time that I have witnessed in my 37 years of continuous employment. The driver & certainly ASLEF would never tolerate it.

 

[Falcon1200]

I cannot imagine any drivers feeling obliged or bullied into working rest days or overtime. It does not happen at any time that I have witnessed in my 37 years of continuous employment. The driver & certainly ASLEF would never tolerate it.

I agree with that too, which makes me wonder in what way XC management have not been observing the terms of the agreement with ASLEF - Surely, for example, asking a Driver to work when they were N/A is not enough to have caused this crisis, given that the Driver would simply say 'no thanks' ?

 

[dk1]

I agree with that too, which makes me wonder in what way XC management have not been observing the terms of the agreement with ASLEF - Surely, for example, asking a Driver to work when they were N/A is not enough to have caused this crisis, given that the Driver would simply say 'no thanks' ?

Theres more to this which would be interesting to hear but no driver would accept forced overtime except for late running. It simply doesn't happen.

 

[O L Leigh]

Theres more to this which would be interesting to hear but no driver would accept forced overtime except for late running. It simply doesn't happen.

See post #114.

 

[Suraggu]

So from one side this agreement was due to be renegotiated as all agreements are.

ASLEF requests more £££ to there members (understandable considering current financial constraints everyday people are under). The operator doesn't have the additional £££ to keep the agreement going and eventually talks break down.

Whilst XC are under a DA (not sure if they are still part of an ERMA) there is literally no money in the pot as it were.

It's a very sad state if affairs and I do wonder if covid wasn't a thing that this agreement would of been extended.

 

[O L Leigh]

ASLEF requests more £££ to there members (understandable considering current financial constraints everyday people are under). The operator doesn't have the additional £££ to keep the agreement going and eventually talks break down.

Nope, that's not correct.

 

[RT4038]

See post #114.

So presumably there is, in addition to whatever payments are made for the Rest Day working, some other restrictive rostering practice which costs money to implement in one way or another. The details of this not being made clear is possibly because it is difficult to explain and/or defend?

 

[O L Leigh]

So presumably there is, in addition to whatever payments are made for the Rest Day working, some other restrictive rostering practice which costs money to implement in one way or another. The details of this not being made clear is possibly because it is difficult to explain and/or defend?

No. RDW is paid at flat rate at XC, so it costs the same to cover a job no matter whether the driver is rostered or having it as "extras".

It's not hard to explain, or to understand. The problem is that too many people on this thread seem to assume that it must be because the drivers are trying to screw more out of the company. This just isn't the case. As outlined in post #114, the issue is that XC is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service. It is also not necessarily linked to practices related to rest-day working.