• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

RMT Industrial Action - EMR

Status
Not open for further replies.

PupCuff

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
512
Location
Nottingham
So a FTS isn’t an issue so to speak as this is a non stop order? Would a failure to stop when issued a non-stop order be a failure to call? Just a bit confused here…
Well, FTS is an issue - at the end of the day when as an industry we publish our timetable that's our promise to our customers, so if we're regularly not stopping at places where really we should be then it isn't good customer service which we need to avoid especially as folk are returning to rail after the covid pandemic.

Operationally speaking no, if a "Not to Call" order is issued then that effectively means the train is no longer booked to call there.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,721
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Well, FTS is an issue - at the end of the day when as an industry we publish our timetable that's our promise to our customers, so if we're regularly not stopping at places where really we should be then it isn't good customer service which we need to avoid especially as folk are returning to rail after the covid pandemic.

FTS should be used sparingly and only after proper consideration, however it is a vital tool in restoring normal service as soon as possible, particularly useful where very busy routes and/or single line railways are involved; Of course, people waiting for the affected train are disadvantaged, but many more people subsequently get a train on time, instead of late running continuing and being compounded through the day.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,526
FTS should be used sparingly and only after proper consideration, however it is a vital tool in restoring normal service as soon as possible, particularly useful where very busy routes and/or single line railways are involved; Of course, people waiting for the affected train are disadvantaged, but many more people subsequently get a train on time, instead of late running continuing and being compounded through the day.
Hopefully never used on infrequent services ?
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,920
Hopefully never used on infrequent services ?
Has happened on some late running Crewe services where they have either run non stop Derby - Nottingham or Nottingham - Newark to make up time.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,721
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
Has happened on some late running Crewe services where they have either run non stop Derby - Nottingham or Nottingham - Newark to make up time.

A couple of weeks ago I travelled (only as far as Stoke, to be fair) on a Crewe-Newark service which started late (due to late arrival of the inward train and minimal turnround time) and did not recover any time en route, but there was no suggestion of the train missing any stops. There are other trains of course between Derby and Nottingham, but maybe not so many on to Newark ?
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,920
A couple of weeks ago I travelled (only as far as Stoke, to be fair) on a Crewe-Newark service which started late (due to late arrival of the inward train and minimal turnround time) and did not recover any time en route, but there was no suggestion of the train missing any stops. There are other trains of course between Derby and Nottingham, but maybe not so many on to Newark ?
The timetable is way to tight so will never arrive at Crewe on time. It will depend on how late the service was as to if stops are pulled or even terminate short at Nottingham. Typically if it is up to around 20 late nothing will happen to the stops and will just run late for the rest of the day.

Probably the record for the longest Rail Replacement Bus time wise. 5 hours 18 mins from Crewe to Newark!
Realtime Trains - 0B00 0608 Crewe to Newark Castle
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,646
Action now suspended. No idea what if any difference it will make to the train service. Hopefully they will be able to put some of it back.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,211
Location
UK
Action now suspended. No idea what if any difference it will make to the train service. Hopefully they will be able to put some of it back.
I doubt it. Perhaps a couple of VSTP crowd busters if that.
 

DorkingMain

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2020
Messages
692
Location
London, UK
The timetable is way to tight so will never arrive at Crewe on time. It will depend on how late the service was as to if stops are pulled or even terminate short at Nottingham. Typically if it is up to around 20 late nothing will happen to the stops and will just run late for the rest of the day.

Probably the record for the longest Rail Replacement Bus time wise. 5 hours 18 mins from Crewe to Newark!
Realtime Trains - 0B00 0608 Crewe to Newark Castle
Think some of the ones when the Cambrian Coast Line closes must be up there, though that's perhaps a topic for another thread...
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,610
Location
London
Action now suspended. No idea what if any difference it will make to the train service. Hopefully they will be able to put some of it back.

AIUI the strike timetable is still running at our end.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,891
Location
Central Belt
Action now suspended. No idea what if any difference it will make to the train service. Hopefully they will be able to put some of it back.
They are claiming it is too late to reinstate anything in their website. Hopefully the ones that are in the timetable will run. See what turns up unit wise on Nottingham - Grimsby (hopefully not 2 car units)

Just a question for those in the know, why can't the just run the normal timetable? I assume all the staff will be in as normal? Diagrams won't change etc.
 

bunnahabhain

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2005
Messages
2,071
They are claiming it is too late to reinstate anything in their website. Hopefully the ones that are in the timetable will run. See what turns up unit wise on Nottingham - Grimsby (hopefully not 2 car units)

Just a question for those in the know, why can't the just run the normal timetable? I assume all the staff will be in as normal? Diagrams won't change etc.
Once services have been removed there is a multitude of reasons why the normal timetable can't be reinstated. Drivers diagrams have been amended for a start, and potentially some STP diagrams could have been inserted which would conflict with the normal timetabled service. Another issue is that Senior Conductors are still working to the December 2019 roster and as such have to have work that fits within the original times of that roster.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,127
Location
East Anglia
They are claiming it is too late to reinstate anything in their website. Hopefully the ones that are in the timetable will run. See what turns up unit wise on Nottingham - Grimsby (hopefully not 2 car units)

Just a question for those in the know, why can't the just run the normal timetable? I assume all the staff will be in as normal? Diagrams won't change etc.
It’s far too late. The daily lists for drivers/guards will have been posted according to all modified crew & unit diagrams. Trying to do much about it at such a late stage would be an operational nightmare. Odd alterations can be made but on the whole it’s beyond redemption.
 

High Dyke

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2013
Messages
4,290
Location
Yellabelly Country
AIUI the late announcement was due to Civica awaiting the result of the TM ballot.

My only bugbear about this, as my own branch secretary advised and someone who is on the front line of this dispute. Affected members may need to make childcare arrangements etc, but a late announcement be it taking action or suspending of action does not help the members directly affected.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
8,891
Location
Central Belt
Fair enough - hopefully they may be able to get a few extras in. But it is a pity so many routes will have no service this weekend now. The other big losers are the Lincoln Christmas market visitors and the Peterborough - Norwich fans (although the staff may view them as more trouble then they are worth)
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,646
AIUI the late announcement was due to Civica awaiting the result of the TM ballot.

My only bugbear about this, as my own branch secretary advised and someone who is on the front line of this dispute. Affected members may need to make childcare arrangements etc, but a late announcement be it taking action or suspending of action does not help the members directly affected.
It's fair to say I think that nobody is particularly impressed. Crap timing that doesn't help the staff or passengers.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,947
Location
Sheffield
It's fair to say I think that nobody is particularly impressed. Crap timing that doesn't help the staff or passengers.
It only helps detractors of all public transport, the rail industry in general but most particularly anything to do with EMR.

Having been close to an acrimonious industrial relations dispute over 30 years ago I recall how those locking horns in the battle tended to overlook the effects on customers and front line staff - although both sides claimed their interests were at the heart of the dispute! Neither side wanted to blink first. In the end the employer gave way, but 10 years later there were fewer employees.
 

STINT47

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2020
Messages
611
Location
Nottingham
If I was being cynical you could argue that calling off the strike so late is a move by the union to make EMR look bad.

They know that it will be to late to revert to the original timetable at this late stage but can direccccty any complaints to EMR as they're members are now ready and available to work if EMR run the trains.

It may also mean that their members who will not be required to work will earn two days pay for doing bo work. Good result all round.

On the other side three Nottingham to Manchester services are shown as being cancelled tommorow due to industrial action.

I would very much hope these get reinstated as there is surely no reason why staff shortages should cause cancellations for the next two days now. I would also be unimpressed with short forms with so few trains running. Be interesting to see what happens
 

Skymonster

Established Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
1,774
Just a question for those in the know, why can't the just run the normal timetable? I assume all the staff will be in as normal? Diagrams won't change etc.
Because EMR can’t be bothered….
The daily lists for drivers/guards will have been posted according to all modified crew & unit diagrams. Trying to do much about it at such a late stage would be an operational nightmare.
In other words, EMR would rather mess around and disrupt customers than train crew - it clearly and very sadly demonstrates where the priorities lie.

[And please don’t preach to me - I was involved in airline crewing for more than a decade and I know what it takes, and in true private enterprise I have no doubt a full service would be reinstated.]
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
12,211
Location
UK
Because EMR can’t be bothered….
No, because the industry is too inflexible to allow such a substantial change at 2 days' notice.

In other words, EMR would rather mess around and disrupt customers than train crew - it clearly and very sadly demonstrates where the priorities lie.
The railways exist in a hyper-unionised environment, where conditions such as spare hours movement etc. severely restrict what can be done at short notice. In the context of a dispute you can hardly expect that staff will be willing to bend over backwards to help the company; they'll get paid one way or the other now that the strike is off.

But it's true that throughout this, no-one really represents the passengers' interests. And that's one of the major failures of the current railway setup.

[And please don’t preach to me - I was involved in airline crewing for more than a decade and I know what it takes, and in true private enterprise I have no doubt a full service would be reinstated.]
In a truly private enterprise a dispute such as this would have been 'resolved' long ago. In a manner far less favourable to the employees, of course.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,127
Location
East Anglia
Because EMR can’t be bothered….

In other words, EMR would rather mess around and disrupt customers than train crew - it clearly and very sadly demonstrates where the priorities lie.

[And please don’t preach to me - I was involved in airline crewing for more than a decade and I know what it takes, and in true private enterprise I have no doubt a full service would be reinstated.]
Not at all. In your own words, please don’t preach to me. It’s not a perfect world.

So, time to get shut of the unions then… Ever heard of PATCO?
Hilarious.
 
Last edited:

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,610
Location
London
[And please don’t preach to me - I was involved in airline crewing for more than a decade and I know what it takes, and in true private enterprise I have no doubt a full service would be reinstated.]

Knowing a few people who work for airlines, both pilots and cabin crew, your admission you were involved in airline crewing speaks volumes. It certainly explains your obvious contempt for staff standing up for themselves; and your frequent anti union rants on here. The airline industry is utterly disgraceful in terms of the way it treats its employees.


So, time to get shut of the unions then… Ever heard of PATCO?

What a lovely attitude which, ironically, perfectly demonstrates why unions are so important.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,646
Because EMR can’t be bothered….

In other words, EMR would rather mess around and disrupt customers than train crew - it clearly and very sadly demonstrates where the priorities lie.

[And please don’t preach to me - I was involved in airline crewing for more than a decade and I know what it takes, and in true private enterprise I have no doubt a full service would be reinstated.]
If it were that simple it would be done. Unpicking unit diagrams, servicing, station setups and working etc with less than 12 hours to the first departures is bordering on the impossible even if Network Rail say yes, which they wouldn't.

That isn't to say that the RMT's timing wasn't contemptible, which as an RMT guard I entirely agree it was.
 

STINT47

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2020
Messages
611
Location
Nottingham
Currently on the 08:18 Beeston tp St Pancras service. I was hoping for a double unit given that only one Nottingham service an hour is operating today but no chance.

Its the normal five cars and it's already full and standing. I really believe that EMR just don't care about the service they provide and the DFT let them get away with it.

I also note on journey check that a lot of Nottingham to Manchesster services are cancelled today. Surely they cannot be short of staff today when running such a reduced service?
 

aoa123

Member
Joined
6 May 2021
Messages
13
Location
UK
Would be curious to know the state of emr services at Sheffield today esp the Norwich to Liverpool workings as even on a normal Saturday they are "interesting" to say the least....
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,127
Location
East Anglia
Would be curious to know the state of emr services at Sheffield today esp the Norwich to Liverpool workings as even on a normal Saturday they are "interesting" to say the least....
Nothing EMR wise at the Norwich end from what I can see. Just use GA/XC/LNER etc via Ely/Peterborough/Doncaster.
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,920
Currently on the 08:18 Beeston tp St Pancras service. I was hoping for a double unit given that only one Nottingham service an hour is operating today but no chance.

Its the normal five cars and it's already full and standing. I really believe that EMR just don't care about the service they provide and the DFT let them get away with it.

I also note on journey check that a lot of Nottingham to Manchesster services are cancelled today. Surely they cannot be short of staff today when running such a reduced service?
There are a few single sets on Sundays as well but the migoraty are 7, 9 and 10 cars.

The 1548 Derby to Crewe and return was cancelled yesterday well leaving a 3 hour gap on the North Staffs line.
 

Warrior2852

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2018
Messages
123
So every single Nottingham to Manchester and vice versa today (apart from one solitary bustitution) was suddenly cancelled this morning despite being in the timetable as running today as recently as yesterday? Meant that the only way to get up to Manchester was through Northern up to Sheffield then either TPE or the Hope Valley stopper (both of which leave Sheffield just as the Nottingham service comes in, so you end up with an hour wait unless you are very lucky with a 1 minute cross platform interchange to the Hope Valley.) Anyone know why this change suddenly appeared this morning?

(Unusually, there's also a pair of 150s running on the Northern Nottingham service mixed in with the usual 195s)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top