Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Bletchleyite]

Wow those PKP Flirts look good Certainly makes me want to go to Poland again even more!

The high floor is a downside, but (and I know I'm a Stadler fan) they are genuinely one of the nicest long distance trains I've had the pleasure to travel on - and it was a long trip, about 4 hours if I recall. Good seats, big windows and a proper buffet, smooth riding and quiet. Very little to complain about at all. The "Polish clone" PESA DARTs aren't anywhere near as nice, sadly.

TfW passengers getting them have a lot to look forward to even if the Welsh ones are a bit more basic

 

[TravelDream]

The PKP Flirts are very comfortable, but are definitely intercity units and hardly suitable to fast boarding/ de-boarding. I think PKP accepted that even village halts will require a two minute stop with their one door per car layout.

They would hardly be 'fun' at Cardiff Central at rush hour.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is no specific need to have doors above the bogies. It's just a convention. You can have them elsewhere. It isn't a problem.

These rather nice bits of kit (which are high floor in Polish terms but probably low floor in UK terms) have doors in rather random positions but have the feel of end-doored units because there are relatively few doors and they have vestibule doors either side of them to prevent draughts.

I wondered how they got all the windows on the same level (the UK FLIRTs look a bit untidy in that regard) so looked them up - Google images suggest they don't have level boarding (a flight of steps inside the doors, Pacers eat your heart out!). That said, single-leaf external doors, internal vestibule doors and the sliding 'step' would largely eliminate the negatives associated with the external doors not being above the bogies. I assume the stepping distance from train to a curved platform is more consistent with doors above the bogies, but the sliding 'step' presumably resolves the problem of bigger gaps. The only remaining negative I can think of (and it's a minor one) is that you lose a window in the middle of the carriage for the toilet.

The PKP Flirts are very comfortable, but are definitely intercity units and hardly suitable to fast boarding/ de-boarding. I think PKP accepted that even village halts will require a two minute stop with their one door per car layout.

They would hardly be 'fun' at Cardiff Central at rush hour.

Aye, I was just making a general point about level boarding as implemented on the UK FLIRTs. Given that the Cardiff Metro requires wide doors at thirds anyway it's a non-issue for the fleets covered by this topic.

 

[TravelDream]

I wondered how they got all the windows on the same level (the UK FLIRTs look a bit untidy in that regard) so looked them up - Google images suggest they don't have level boarding (a flight of steps inside the doors, Pacers eat your heart out!). That said, single-leaf external doors, internal vestibule doors and the sliding 'step' would largely eliminate the negatives associated with the external doors not being above the bogies.

PKP's site actually provides a lot of information on the trains. All in polish of course, but you can walk-through the train.

Flirt3

Strona internetowa przewoźnika kolejowego PKP Intercity S.A. należącego do grupy PKP, obsługującego kolejowe dalekobieżne przewozy pasażerskie: pośpieszne (Twoje Linie Kolejowe i InterCity) oraz ekspresowe (Express InterCity i Express InterCity Premium).

www.intercity.pl

Polish trains need steps as most stations are low-level whilst only the main ones tend to have level(ish) boarding. Polish trains get around the accessibility issue by having lifts much like coaches. I don't think that would be too popular in this country and would be very difficult given how sparsely staffed our trains are and doesn't help those with limited mobility/ unsteady on their feet/ with prams etc.

 

[Techniquest]

The high floor is a downside, but (and I know I'm a Stadler fan) they are genuinely one of the nicest long distance trains I've had the pleasure to travel on - and it was a long trip, about 4 hours if I recall. Good seats, big windows and a proper buffet, smooth riding and quiet. Very little to complain about at all. The "Polish clone" PESA DARTs aren't anywhere near as nice, sadly.

TfW passengers getting them have a lot to look forward to even if the Welsh ones are a bit more basic

Good to know that, I'm planning a bit of a tour of Poland to happen in 2022. I'm so determined it's going to happen that I'm trying to learn Polish. Which is not an easy task, but I'm getting there slowly.

In order to avoid taking this thread off-topic, I'll aim to create a separate thread later as I'm intrigued enough to learn more about the PKP fleet, what to expect etc.

The TfW fleet may well be more basic, but for the purposes of their operations I can't see anything that will make them unpopular. I certainly had no comfort issues on the GA Flirts, and one of my journeys on them was Ipswich to Peterborough which is a fairly lengthy journey. Bring them on I say, and I'm already getting ready to say farewell to the 769s!

 

[tomuk]

There is no specific need to have doors above the bogies. It's just a convention. You can have them elsewhere. It isn't a problem.

Yes there is a problem if the platforms are on a curve. If the door isn't above the bogie the stepping distance increases. "Mind the Gap"

 

[Kyle2]

I saw a couple of pages ago that training paths for the 231's had appeared in the schedules, does anyone know if they've ventured outside of Canton yet? I assume not due to fitter training etc.

 

[Domh245]

Yes there is a problem if the platforms are on a curve. If the door isn't above the bogie the stepping distance increases. "Mind the Gap"

However in the context of a low floor FLIRT, stepping distance becomes an irrelevance as there's a ramp deployed at each door.

 

[tomuk]

However in the context of a low floor FLIRT, stepping distance becomes an irrelevance as there's a ramp deployed at each door.

I know it has a ramp but how wide a gap can it cover. At what point does it become a gangplank you can fall off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it has a ramp but how wide a gap can it cover. At what point does it become a gangplank you can fall off.

Unless you are talking the real exceptions like the gaping chasm at Clapham Jn P17 (which has brought many a child to tears in my observation), we aren't talking massive gaps in most cases. I forget how big a gap it can bridge, but the way you are talking is as if the majority of rolling stock in the UK didn't have doors at thirds - it does. And you're also doing a classic Forum thing of suggesting something is impossible that has already been done in the form of the GA units.

 

[TheEdge]

I know it has a ramp but how wide a gap can it cover. At what point does it become a gangplank you can fall off.

I can think of the grand total of one entire location (with maybe one other) where the GA FLIRTs stop where the ramp at one door only leaves a big enough gap to necessitate "Mind the Gap" to be painted on the platform.

So its not really as much of an issue as you are imagining.

 

[Bob Price]

I saw a couple of pages ago that training paths for the 231's had appeared in the schedules, does anyone know if they've ventured outside of Canton yet? I assume not due to fitter training etc.

It may be 3G00 from Canton to Gloucester tomorrow and then back the following morning. Operated by GBRF. Leaving Cardiff at 2210

 

[AlexNL]

Yes there is a problem if the platforms are on a curve. If the door isn't above the bogie the stepping distance increases. "Mind the Gap"

But this gets negated by the step being able to extend further outward than a normal fixed step.

 

[tomuk]

I was replying to Bletchleyite who suggested that the reason doors are above bogies is just convention when there are good design reasons for it. In general I also question the new received wisdom that the FLIRTS are the best thing since sliced bread. As a poor peasant from the North and English borders I will have to make do with 197s and the mellifluous ride of 1989 Metro Cammell Mk4s.

 

[anthony263]

I saw a couple of pages ago that training paths for the 231's had appeared in the schedules, does anyone know if they've ventured outside of Canton yet? I assume not due to fitter training etc.

Yes 231004 has been doing runs between Cardiff and Severn tunnel junction.

 

[Buzz68]

The paths for the first 231 run up to Rhymney on Friday night/Saturday seem to have been amended. With 3R02 and 3R03 now no longer showing? Maybe a pause to review how the first runs went?

3R00 2300 Cardiff Central to Rhymney
3R01 0007 Rhymney to Cardiff Central
3R04 0324 Cardiff Central to Rhymney
3R05 0431 Rhymney to Cardiff Central

 

[Bob Price]

See you on Heath station at stupid o'clock Buzz

 

[Buzz68]

See you on Heath station at stupid o'clock Buzz

Aye, I should be there with my butty, then I'm thinking Caerphilly for the 3R01

 

[Bob Price]

A Tweet from Transport for Wales showcasing the 231's out in test today. They are really pushing the social media side of these units.

https://twitter.com/transport_wales/status/1468583009804820482?t=p-hxWbzWg_099WiPn7vWDA&s=19

 

[Class172]

What is interesting, is that the FLIRTS are the only new stock that will have the FISAs, according to the mock up and artist impressions which show the 398 Tram Trains with Fainsa Sophias also.

CAF Class 196s are fitted with FISA Lean seats.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

CAF Class 196s are fitted with FISA Lean seats.

I know.
The only new TfW stock.

 

[DannyMich2018]

A Tweet from Transport for Wales showcasing the 231's out in test today. They are really pushing the social media side of these units.
[URL Very good progress with testing, only been in the UK a few weeks they have:- Unlike the 769s which didn't venture on the mainline for months after delivery and the 230s are still not in service after 18 months testing/ training.

 

[tomuk]

I wouldn't get too excited there are only two sets delivered, there will be mileage runs to be made before acceptance, fitter and driver training, station trials and the delivery of more sets before they can go into service.

 

[Bob Price]

Agreed there is a long way to go but knowing how long it took the 769's to even turn a wheel it's positive to see these being run as quickly as they are.

 

[AlexNL]

I saw this video of a unit arriving at + departing from Gloucester on Twitter:

 

[Buzz68]

Agreed there is a long way to go but knowing how long it took the 769's to even turn a wheel it's positive to see these being run as quickly as they are.

They are starting on the right foot with the 231's, hopefully seeing them out and about on the network regularly now. 769's had lots of delays in testing particularly was with us for nearly 10 months before it's first run up the Rhymney and a 4 month delay due to Covid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

I saw this video of a unit arriving at + departing from Gloucester on Twitter:

Nice video, Alex, noisier than I thought they would be. Hopefully we'll see the first one on the Rhymney tomorrow night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

Does anyone know approximate dates of when the next deliveries of 231's are and expected deliveries of 756's will be. Thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are starting on the right foot with the 231's, hopefully seeing them out and about on the network regularly now. 769's had lots of delays in testing particularly was with us for nearly 10 months before it's first run up the Rhymney and a 4 month delay due to Covid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==


Nice video, Alex, noisier than I thought they would be. Hopefully we'll see the first one on the Rhymney tomorrow night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

Does anyone know approximate dates of when the next deliveries of 231's are and expected deliveries of 756's will be. Thanks.

They aren't that noisy in my experience (from the basically identical Greater Anglia units), no worse than any other DMU. Phone microphones seem to pick up engine noise as being a lot louder than it is - I remember the same of the 195s and 230s.

 

[St. Paddy]

They are starting on the right foot with the 231's, hopefully seeing them out and about on the network regularly now. 769's had lots of delays in testing particularly was with us for nearly 10 months before it's first run up the Rhymney and a 4 month delay due to Covid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==


Nice video, Alex, noisier than I thought they would be. Hopefully we'll see the first one on the Rhymney tomorrow night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2021 ==

Does anyone know approximate dates of when the next deliveries of 231's are and expected deliveries of 756's will be. Thanks.

Next 231s due February according to the latest Today’s Railways UK due to space constraints at Canton. No mention of the 756s

 

[Bob Price]

If Canton is full wonder if we will see them stored somewhere interesting like they did with the East Anglian ones?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Next 231s due February according to the latest Today’s Railways UK due to space constraints at Canton. No mention of the 756s

They could always send the broken 769s to Landore. That d make a bit of room at Canton. Then after a few months drag em over to Sims. Isn't that what happened to the 142s and 143s.