Guardian article: SWR leaves passengers stranded

[jon0844]

Police always at the service of bullying authority.

If you refused to get off a train, they would be perfectly entitled to assist in getting you off. That's not bullying or supporting bullies.

 

[pompeyfan]

For the nth time, the rolling stock and crew formed an up train, they did not just abandon their passengers, and the train would have been advertised for Salisbury in the standard fashion

 

[Pigeon]

Thank you, I think this is worth emphasising...

For the nth time, the rolling stock and crew formed an up train, they did not just abandon their passengers, and the train would have been advertised for Salisbury in the standard fashion

...Because the impression I got from the thread so far was that people were not sure whether this was the case or not and it's dropped off RTT so can't be looked up to check.

Bloody journalists...

 

[skyhigh]

I will happily be forced off a train by an officer, because I've then got an authority figure stood in front of me with a direct line the TOCs control room. I wouldn't do enough to be arrested and as I said the BTP aren't exactly based locally to 90% of the UK stations so callout times can vary putting pressure on the TOC to fix it rather than hold their crew at a station for 2 hours until the BTP arrive.

The driver/guard has a direct phone number for control. A BTP officer will have to pass a message to their control, who will then try and phone the TOC. In practice they will almost certainly ask the guard what control has said. If it's local police that come out they won't have a clue how to contact a TOC control room.

And where did the train go when it left the passengers stranded in the middle of nowhere, if it went back to nearest depot could the pax not been taken as well.

The absolute worst thing you can do is take a train full of passengers to a depot. Anyone who works in a depot will be well familiar with the hazards - almost certainly no platform meaning a climb down from the train, poor lighting, uneven surfaces, train movements. Bringing a number of passengers who might be drunk/young/have mobility issues into that environment is a recipe for disaster. The best thing to do would be to hold the train for passengers to wait on until replacement transport could be arranged from the station.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I guess you don't know Yeovil Junction, which is absolutely in the middle of nowhere; the long station approach doesn't even have any lighting, or pavement. It's several miles to Yeovil town, which is in the next county - Junction station is in Dorset, not inconsequential because it impacts which taxis are allowed to ply for hire there. For the people saying contact the police, it's not even in the Avon & Somerset Police area that Yeovil town is; civilian police would have to come from Dorchester (although the Somerset police are not particularly jobsworths and would have very likely attended until all were taken care of).

The railway might as well have dumped them on the ballast between stations, and driven off back to Salisbury.

250 metres from the footbridge steps to the main road. Turn left there is a village with a pub - but the young person and adult travellers would not necessarily know that, or see that in the dark. Perhaps they have smartphones with map apps thereon!

Turning right, a cumulative 2.35km to the edge of town - Cineworld and Hollywood Bowl,
2.53 km to the office of Yeovil Taxis A2Z,
2.67km to Wetherpoons.
All clearly labelled on Google Aerial.

You are correct, that is not a good road to walk down, especially so at night in storms.

 

[Wolfie]

Another non story given that SWR have apologised and reimbursed costs incorrect. The response of customer service seemed perfectly reasonable to me: people should not be travelling alone if they are incapable of dealing with disruption which might occur. At 16 you are old enough to join the army, get married etc. so if this particular 16yo was too vulnerable to travel that’s on the parents.

If (as seems likely) travel was during one of the recent severe weather events, it’s also highly likely that SWR had warned of potential disruption and/or advised against travel. Advice that was presumably ignored.

How can the railway be expected to magic taxis out of nowhere when there are none available in the locality? If the journalist herself had failed to get a taxi why should railway staff members be any different?






What’s unacceptable, an unstaffed station late at night? That’s hardly an unusual situation. I doubt anyone is willing to pay higher fares to have all stations staffed from first to last trains - much as that would undoubtedly help in situations like this.

Same goes for “EU style compensation” it has a cost which will ultimately be suffered by farepayers and taxpayers. Ultimately it will always be much easier for airlines to accommodate stranded passengers as they’re inevitably going to be at an airport surrounded by hotels and with ready access to coaches etc. if necessary, whereas disruption can happen at very short notice anywhere on a TOCs network.

I also hope that the parent uses every lever at his command to make life absolutely miserable for SWR senior management. They deserve to be tied up with MPs, Ministers and the media for months.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The best form of communication (and I know hindsight is a wonderful thing) is to tell the passengers all of the facts, and let the passengers make their own decisions. e.g.

1. The line going forward is blocked, and there won't be any trains going further than this station tonight.
2. We have tried to arrange transport, but given the weather, it is unlikely to materialise.
3. We suggest you do one of four things:
   1. go back to where you started
   2. go back to Salisbury where there will be more staff to assist and more facilities (e.g. hotels)
   3. retrace your steps and see if you can get to Exeter via GWR
   4. try to sort out your own transport

I think it is the lack of full communication and provision of all the known facts to pssenegers which make this sort of situation so bad for passengers.

I like this 'candid' approach but would a few additional 'facts', e.g.:

(Between 2 and 3)

This station is in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by unlit country roads with no footpath
There are no staff at the station after HH:MM
The station buildings are all locked up
There are no toilet facilities available
There is no exit for passengers with reduced mobility
There are no means of charging a mobile device
The help point has been reported as out of service
There are no SWR customer assistance staff on duty at this time of night anyway

(The tablets issued to SWR guards could presumably carry or give access to this type of fixed/status/reference information for all stations. Obviously the situation for - say - Wimbledon would be a little less stark.)

 

[etr221]

Looking at the Charlwoodhouse web page linked above, AIUI the last train through to Exeter was 1L29, 1120 ex WLO, 1340 at Yeovil; the next (1L33 - 1220 ex WLO) terminated Yeovil c1440.
So the reported incident (affecting the 1820 ex WLO) was not an 'unexpected' termination: I assume it was planned from mid afternoon that trains would terminate at Yeovil (and return east), with bus from there.
Question as to whether this was the case? What was announced east of Salisbury? Was a re-route for passengers onto the GW possible or suggested? Or was reliance left to replacement buses?
And so was the issue actually down to failure of the replacement bus service?

But this doesn't reduce the severity of what ended up happening.

Perhaps the real point is should SWR (or?) have deployed some management/customer service types to Yeovil to supervise the transfer to replacement buses (and do something in their absence)? Rather than - as generally seems to be the case - just trusting/hoping that buses and trains would turn up as expected and the self-loading freight (passengers) would manage to self reload as required...

And as a more general point, if this was a 'safety' issue, then there would be some sort of formal and independent investigation, with a published report, by the RAIB or such; but for 'operational' failures like this - however serious - there is nothing more than an internal process promising that 'lessons will be learnt'. But one day one of these 'operational' failures will turn into a 'safety' issue...

 

[Wolfie]

The driver/guard has a direct phone number for control. A BTP officer will have to pass a message to their control, who will then try and phone the TOC. In practice they will almost certainly ask the guard what control has said. If it's local police that come out they won't have a clue how to contact a TOC control room.


The absolute worst thing you can do is take a train full of passengers to a depot. Anyone who works in a depot will be well familiar with the hazards - almost certainly no platform meaning a climb down from the train, poor lighting, uneven surfaces, train movements. Bringing a number of passengers who might be drunk/young/have mobility issues into that environment is a recipe for disaster. The best thing to do would be to hold the train for passengers to wait on until replacement transport could be arranged from the station.

I agree your last para. Since when would depots have the capability to handle passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

If you refused to get off a train, they would be perfectly entitled to assist in getting you off. That's not bullying or supporting bullies.

You are doubtless correct. Of course, should such police action result in an unaccompanied minor being left alone in awful weather conditions in violation of duty of care said police officers would likely be facing gross misconduct charges themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

you’re in fantasy land if you think it will ever work like that.

In BR days it did. No reason it could not.

These contracts are about saving money, not providing good passenger service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

I agree your last para. Since when would depots have the capability to handle passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==


You are doubtless correct. Of course, should such police action result in an unaccompanied minor being left alone in awful weather conditions in violation of duty of care said police officers would likely be facing gross misconduct charges themselves.

I fear the only possible outcome of this being pushed too hard is a full ban on unaccompanied minors. Which would be disastrous.

Thus, the ultimate responsibility for an unaccompanied minor has to be the parent.

 

[Wolfie]

In BR days it did. No reason it could not.

These contracts are about saving money, not providing good passenger service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==



I fear the only possible outcome of this being pushed too hard is a full ban on unaccompanied minors. Which would be disastrous.

Thus, the ultimate responsibility for an unaccompanied minor has to be the parent.

Re your last two paras: would make selling school tickets "interesting"... and in any event if you believe that Parliament would for one minute allow any such action... MPs rather like getting reelected...

Actually l hope that some TOC is dumb enough to try... Might lead to a serious review of the current iniquitous railway legislation....
....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For the nth time, the rolling stock and crew formed an up train, they did not just abandon their passengers, and the train would have been advertised for Salisbury in the standard fashion

The absolute worst thing you can do is take a train full of passengers to a depot.

So did the train in question, return in service to Salisbury station? Or (empty?) to the nearest depot?

 

[jon0844]

You are doubtless correct. Of course, should such police action result in an unaccompanied minor being left alone in awful weather conditions in violation of duty of care said police officers would likely be facing gross misconduct charges themselves.

I am sure the police officer would seek to help with any duty of care/safeguarding issues after removing someone from a train, so let's not jump to conclusions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re your last two paras: would make selling school tickets "interesting"... and in any event if you believe that Parliament would for one minute allow any such action... MPs rather like getting reelected...

Actually l hope that some TOC is dumb enough to try... Might lead to a serious review of the current iniquitous railway legislation....
....

GNER did try, they were I believe told to pack it in.

If staff take responsibility for minors over and above the duty of care to any adult passenger, they would need DBS checks etc. It is not a viable possibility. Responsibility has to remain with the parents.

 

[Horizon22]

I also hope that the parent uses every lever at his command to make life absolutely miserable for SWR senior management. They deserve to be tied up with MPs, Ministers and the media for months.

I am curious though and what you would have liked to have happened in the scenario provided. The situation is as follows:

• The line to Exeter is blocked
• There is no other suitable destination for the train to be turned around
• Replacement road transport is proving difficult / impossible to resource at quick or even medium notice
• The crew are booked to form another service and cannot wait at Yeovil Junction indefinitely
• The station is unstaffed at that time of day.

I appreciate that many of these things are not the passengers fault, and I have already commented that the communication was probably sub-par but, given the circumstances, what exactly would you what SWR to do at that moment? It was a very bad experience for these passengers, and ultimately they were reimbursed for it.

For reference (with no comment made), this is from SWR's Passenger Information During Disruption (PIDD) site:

Completing your journey

When you buy a ticket from us, we will do our utmost to make sure you can complete your journey. However, sometimes disruption can result in you missing your last connection to your destination. If this situation occurs, we will do our best to:
1. Provide onward transport, whether by an alternative train operator or road transport
2. Overnight accommodation in a hotel if you are travelling a significant distance.
We will also arrange for your tickets to be honoured on early morning services to get you to your destination.

If we advise you not to travel
There may be occasions when we need to advise you not to travel. This decision will only be taken during severe disruption and will be agreed with our Senior On-Call Manager for Customer Service and On Call Director. We will only issue this advice in the most extreme situations and we will update our website to ensure customers are kept informed. If you purchased your ticket from us and you decide not to travel or abandon your journey as the result of disruption, we will give you a full refund of your fare. We will not charge any administration fees. You should claim your refund via your account on our website, at our ticket offices or through our Contact Centre within 28 days of the expiry date of your ticket. If you purchased your ticket through another train company, you must contact them for your refund.

 

[jon0844]

It would seem that taking stranded passengers back to a larger station, if the train ran back, where they may have to prepare to spend the night (either on the station or local hotels), might have been wise.

Of course, some people may have flatly refused to accept this.

 

[Taunton]

It was a very bad experience for these passengers, and ultimately they were reimbursed for it.

The passenger connected with the journalist was reimbursed. There were a "couple of dozen" passengers put off there. Normal experience is that only a small proportion go through all the hoo-hah of applying for reimbursement, which may be known to many who write here, but few of the general public.

 

[Horizon22]

The passenger connected with the journalist was reimbursed. There were a "couple of dozen" passengers put off there. Normal experience is that only a small proportion go through all the hoo-hah of applying for reimbursement, which may be known to many who write here, but few of the general public.

You may be correct there - the post-incident response is of course different to the on-the-day response. Anyone that put in a claim should have been reimbursed accordingly, but I appreciate dealing with Delay Repay / customer complaints can be hit & miss.

 

[stevetay3]

If you refused to get off a train, they would be perfectly entitled to assist in getting you off. That's not bullying or supporting bullies.

Yes assist not drag people of like what happened last year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

The driver/guard has a direct phone number for control. A BTP officer will have to pass a message to their control, who will then try and phone the TOC. In practice they will almost certainly ask the guard what control has said. If it's local police that come out they won't have a clue how to contact a TOC control room.


The absolute worst thing you can do is take a train full of passengers to a depot. Anyone who works in a depot will be well familiar with the hazards - almost certainly no platform meaning a climb down from the train, poor lighting, uneven surfaces, train movements. Bringing a number of passengers who might be drunk/young/have mobility issues into that environment is a recipe for disaster. The best thing to do would be to hold the train for passengers to wait on until replacement transport could be arranged from the station.

I did not mean take them in to a depot, but a station near the depot, is Salisbury & Exeter depots not right next to there respective depots

 

[jon0844]

Yes assist not drag people of like what happened last year

What happened last year?

In any case, if someone refused to move when asked to by a police officer, I cannot see why they couldn't be forcibly removed, with a threat of arrest for non-compliance.

They can argue once off the train, and if they feel they were hard done by put in a complaint.

 

[stevetay3]

What happened last year?

In any case, if someone refused to move when asked to by a police officer, I cannot see why they couldn't be forcibly removed, with a threat of arrest for non-compliance.

They can argue once off the train, and if they feel they were hard done by put in a complaint.

There was plenty on here about it

 

[skyhigh]

There was plenty on here about it

In which case can you provide a link please, because I don't remember it but would be interested in reading the details.

 

[nanstallon]

If you refused to get off a train, they would be perfectly entitled to assist in getting you off. That's not bullying or supporting bullies.

This mentality is just why I like to keep my car!

 

[Western Sunset]

We'll probably never get to the bottom of it all. But again, that word COMMUNICATION appears, as it does so often in these and similar circumstances.
Did the crew just terminate and scuttle back to Salisbury, or did they engage in a meaningful way with the passengers as to what possible options were available?

 

[robbeech]

egardless of whether it was promised or not, what could the railway have done differently to get the passengers to their destination?

Taken them to a bigger station, paid £250 for a taxi, organised overnight accommodation which we know was available, all those things they’re supposed to do.

It is not possible for both of these statements to be true.

It is if it suits.

To be fair, it is very unusual for the Grauniad to publish anything about events outside the M25.

I doubt there would have been an article had the journalist's son not been involved.

Not exactly investigative journalism at its finest is it.........

Indeed and there rarely is when this sort of thing happens on a small scale. The railways count on this and get away with it. Had there not been a story on it due to the passenger link, we would likely not have known about it, it’s very unlikely anyone will have been compensated they’ll have just been fobbed off.

At the very least, SWR did seem to reimburse all the costs.

After a big deal was made of the whole debacle.

The railways do not have access to the same taxi companies as an individual may have. Taxis are usually booked using a central agency who ring companies they have contracts with

Oh well leave them stranded out in the cold then if that doesn’t suit the accounts.

There was however 3 trains that returned to Salisbury, so passengers could have returned that way if they wanted to.

If it was communicated to them that this may have yielded better results for them. But was it? If they’re sat there expecting onward transport as promised, why would they get on a train going in the other direction?

And where did the train go when it left the passengers stranded in the middle of nowhere, if it went back to nearest depot could the pax not been taken as well.

Short of shutting down the network, the only solution really is to advise against travel during severe weather. Perhaps it should be made clear that if passengers travel against this advice, and end up stranded due to disruption, they will have to make their own arrangements.

The railway would love that. We’d see them shutting down the entire network for a week because a catering manager on the 0823 got stung by a wasp.

It does seem at times that the TOCs put getting people home on time as a higher priority for the staff than for the customers.

There’s no way to establish if this happened here or not. It’s entirely possible that the staff got home earlier than normal if services were cancelled for the rest of the day and they managed to get out of the situation sharpish, but there’s also reports saying they actually took a train back in service so who knows if they got finished on time. There is no doubt that passengers come last but I’m not convinced it’s quite to the extent you allude to.

I also hope that the parent uses every lever at his command to make life absolutely miserable for SWR senior management. They deserve to be tied up with MPs, Ministers and the media for months.

I consider this the default expected attitude from the railway now. That way I can be pleasantly surprised when we see someone being customer focussed. It’s a shame as it’s still a majority that care but I find it’s easier to assume they all consider you a stain on the operation of the railway then you can plan your life around being monumentally let down.

The passenger connected with the journalist was reimbursed. There were a "couple of dozen" passengers put off there. Normal experience is that only a small proportion go through all the hoo-hah of applying for reimbursement, which may be known to many who write here, but few of the general public.

25% would be a reasonable estimate. A further 25% managing delay repay after an appeal but no extra costs incurred.
I have to cite contract and consumer laws, the NRCOT, the TSA, alsorts of stuff to operators to get them to pay up and they still try to fob me off, how is a ‘regular’ passenger EVER going to get anywhere.

And we certainly must not forget that regardless of how much compensation they paid out, the day will have been a tidy earner for them in money claimed from Network Rail.

 

[stevetay3]

@robbeech, can you give us an example of how you have been inconvenienced? This is a genuine, not sarcastic, question.

I have not been involved ,but there was plenty on social media about it, a man being dragged of a train somewhere in Greater Manchester , Young ladies being dragged along the street away from a vigil for the lady who was murdered by a serving officer. All received major coverage on TV maybe you don’t watch tv also non sarcastic

 

[baza585]

I am curious though and what you would have liked to have happened in the scenario provided. The situation is as follows:

• The line to Exeter is blocked
• There is no other suitable destination for the train to be turned around
• Replacement road transport is proving difficult / impossible to resource at quick or even medium notice
• The crew are booked to form another service and cannot wait at Yeovil Junction indefinitely
• The station is unstaffed at that time of day.

I appreciate that many of these things are not the passengers fault, and I have already commented that the communication was probably sub-par but, given the circumstances, what exactly would you what SWR to do at that moment? It was a very bad experience for these passengers, and ultimately they were reimbursed for it.

For reference (with no comment made), this is from SWR's Passenger Information During Disruption (PIDD) site:

+1.

S**t happens sometimes. Crew were in a difficult position. Always easy to sort these things out on a keyboard days later.....

 

[AlterEgo]

There was plenty on here about it

Please link the thread because I don’t remember it.

 

[Wolfie]

+1.

S**t happens sometimes. Crew were in a difficult position. Always easy to sort these things out on a keyboard days later.....

Has anyone really blamed the train crew? That wouldn't be fair in my view.

 

[py_megapixel]

having the traincrew speak to taxi drivers if there are any at the station rank, and giving them an IOU

This is precisely what another TOC did for me a while ago. I narrowly missed a connection to the last leg of a long journey, from a larger station to a small local one. This would have meant being stuck for quite a long time waiting for the next train to take me a fairly short distance. So (without me asking, I hasten to add - I simply asked when the next train to X was) a member of station staff offered to put me in a taxi to my destination. They simply walked out to the taxi rank and gave the driver a IOU-type piece of paper with details on how to invoice the TOC for the journey.

I am deliberately not saying which stations were involved, as I'm not sure it was entirely "by the book" and I don't want to get any staff members in trouble. But as far as I'm concerned it's simply good customer service and should serve as an example to management of what they should be encouraging their staff to do in times of disruption. First and foremost should be getting the passengers into a satisfactory, if not ideal, position by whatever means possible - without worrying about excessive paperwork, using company recommended providers, or achieving absolute perfection for everyone involved.

A taxi to the destination on the ticket is probably not reasonable in all circumstances - but one to somewhere passengers can wait in the dry and warm (such as a larger, staffed station) is unless the roads are literally unusable or there are no taxis at all to be found anywhere.