Guardian article: SWR leaves passengers stranded

[Dr Hoo]

The railways do not have access to the same taxi companies as an individual may have. Taxis are usually booked using a central agency who ring companies they have contracts with.

This is nothing new, of course. I well remember with BR as far back as the late 1970s that we could only use the contracted taxi firm (which was miles away) even when we had loads of taxis sitting outside the station.

The only time in my career that I threatened with formal discipline was for having the temerity to try processing an emergency 'chit'/receipt through booking office cash at my local station. Taught me a very clear and early lesson and I never felt empowered to try something similar again.

(That doesn't make it passenger-focussed!)

 

[Gloster]

My recollection in the early 1980s, and not so far from Yeovil, was that Control would instruct station staff to organise taxis. The booking office or station supervisor’s office would have a list of the local taxis ‘phone numbers: one or two might be marked with comments like ‘Agree price first’ or ‘Only use in emergency’. The staff would arrange the taxis and the taxi drivers would get the fare back as cash out of the till against a receipt within a day or two.

 

[D1537]

Where to start.

Oh, it's the miserablist Guardian and a person in a privileged position (as a national journalist) pursuing a personal story (her own son). Easy copy or what!

The fact that it was the Guardian journalist that had a son on the train actually makes it worse.

(1) If the 16-year-old hadn't had a parent at the other end of the phone, phoning every taxi firm - and then hotels - in the area, what would that minor have done? Imagine if it had been a young lone female? - SW obviously couldn't have cared less.

(2) We wouldn't have heard about this incident, which is quite frankly appalling.

 

[nanstallon]

Well, the convenience and profits of the TOCs take precedence over the customer. So very British.

 

[Wolfie]

The fact that it was the Guardian journalist that had a son on the train actually makes it worse.

(1) If the 16-year-old hadn't had a parent at the other end of the phone, phoning every taxi firm - and then hotels - in the area, what would that minor have done? Imagine if it had been a young lone female? - SW obviously couldn't have cared less.

(2) We wouldn't have heard about this incident, which is quite frankly appalling.

True enough.

 

[43066]

Not the greatest optics here, it has to be said.

South Western left my 16-year-old son stranded at a locked, unstaffed station

The company’s failings expose discrepancies in consumer protection between air and rail travel

www.theguardian.com

Another non story given that SWR have apologised and reimbursed costs incorrect. The response of customer service seemed perfectly reasonable to me: people should not be travelling alone if they are incapable of dealing with disruption which might occur. At 16 you are old enough to join the army, get married etc. so if this particular 16yo was too vulnerable to travel that’s on the parents.

If (as seems likely) travel was during one of the recent severe weather events, it’s also highly likely that SWR had warned of potential disruption and/or advised against travel. Advice that was presumably ignored.

How can the railway be expected to magic taxis out of nowhere when there are none available in the locality? If the journalist herself had failed to get a taxi why should railway staff members be any different?

I understood from the article that in this case the station was not locked up leaving passengers unable to exit, but unstaffed and therefore with the buildings and shelter inaccessible.

To be very clear that is still wholly unacceptable.

What’s unacceptable, an unstaffed station late at night? That’s hardly an unusual situation. I doubt anyone is willing to pay higher fares to have all stations staffed from first to last trains - much as that would undoubtedly help in situations like this.

Same goes for “EU style compensation” it has a cost which will ultimately be suffered by farepayers and taxpayers. Ultimately it will always be much easier for airlines to accommodate stranded passengers as they’re inevitably going to be at an airport surrounded by hotels and with ready access to coaches etc. if necessary, whereas disruption can happen at very short notice anywhere on a TOCs network.

 

[Horizon22]

Oh yes they do. They're perfectly capable of picking up their phone and ringing up local taxi companies. Or having the traincrew speak to taxi drivers if there are any at the station rank, and giving them an IOU or (perish the thought) some cash from the guard's float.

The fact that the railway has decided to implement taxi booking in such a cack-handed manner isn't a defence. To the contrary, it's an indictment of the pathetic bureaucracy of today's railway.

SWR will use First Travel Solutions (FTS) to source their taxis. Having an unified source for alternative transport is in the vast majority of situations extremely useful. Ultimately they'll go through a wide range of local companies to try and source them which is arguably better than one company.. As the article says, they were few and far between and charging a lot. A lot of taxi drivers won't accept IOUs and I thnk its evdident there weren't any at the station rank or it wouldn't have made the Guardian. It is highly unlikely a guard will have a float of £250 (the fare quoted in the article). Issues can be overcome and maybe some taxis could be sourced from Yeovil, but that would have no doubt been one of the first points of call for FTS.

And where did the train go when it left the passengers stranded in the middle of nowhere, if it went back to nearest depot could the pax not been taken as well.

It looks like it shunted and the back working to London started from Yeovil Junction instead of Exeter. Trains terminate short all the time and go backwards. The issue here is that the last suitable point for onward connections that was staffed (Salisbury) had already been passed and there was evidently no ETA for the railway to reopen. For some people going backwards would have been even more unhelpful. I maintain that "in the middle of nowhere" is not a railway station, even if remote (and I accept Yeovil Junction is relatively). What would have been worse is the train to continue on route and then becoming stranded away from a station that might require even more hours to get response staff to, evacuate the train etc etc.

Stuck somewhere between a rock and a hard place when these sort of "line closed" issues happen late at night and the only on-site staff are train crew (who are doing more than one train service). It's important to protect the last train, but if the last train can't run to its destination either, then options are limited. The railway company needs to source public transport / accomodation which can be exceptionally difficult at that time of night. Even if it is expensive, best endeavours will be to source it, even if it will take hours to arrive. Should the crew be told to remain there and wait to spport passengers? What about the passengers waiting for the return train at stations along the line? What about the crew hours and safety? Now let's say this isn't the only line affected and there's multiple other issues across the network.

I don't disagree that communication in these sort of situations could be much better but, in this scenario, anyone trying to get to Exeter on this route was going to be subject to quite a long wait. How you communicate that clearly without letting people feel like they're in the lurch isn't easy.

 

[43066]

I don't disagree that communication in these sort of situations could be much better but, in this scenario, anyone trying to get to Exeter on this route was going to be subject to quite a long wait. How you communicate that clearly without letting people feel like they're in the lurch isn't easy.

Short of shutting down the network, the only solution really is to advise against travel during severe weather. Perhaps it should be made clear that if passengers travel against this advice, and end up stranded due to disruption, they will have to make their own arrangements.

 

[pompeyfan]

To add to @Horizon22 ’s post, traincrew are issue with pads to speed up passenger refunds, and SWR had already issued “get your own taxi and keep your receipt”.

The talk of taxis is actually a bit of a moot point in this situation, many taxis will decline a fare with a minor in the same way most hotels will not do it. That’s not to say that exceptions wouldn’t be made, but to say it’s difficult to force a taxi driver / company to convey a minor.

 

[MotCO]

I don't disagree that communication in these sort of situations could be much better but, in this scenario, anyone trying to get to Exeter on this route was going to be subject to quite a long wait. How you communicate that clearly without letting people feel like they're in the lurch isn't easy.

The best form of communication (and I know hindsight is a wonderful thing) is to tell the passengers all of the facts, and let the passengers make their own decisions. e.g.

1. The line going forward is blocked, and there won't be any trains going further than this station tonight.
2. We have tried to arrange transport, but given the weather, it is unlikely to materialise.
3. We suggest you do one of four things:
   1. go back to where you started
   2. go back to Salisbury where there will be more staff to assist and more facilities (e.g. hotels)
   3. retrace your steps and see if you can get to Exeter via GWR
   4. try to sort out your own transport

I think it is the lack of full communication and provision of all the known facts to pssenegers which make this sort of situation so bad for passengers.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The young person in question was 16 years old. Does that make him a still a minor?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Ultimately it would have been nice for the conductor & driver to stay with the passengers for an amount of time

It does seem at times that the TOCs put getting people home on time as a higher priority for the staff than for the customers.

 

[Horizon22]

It does seem at times that the TOCs put getting people home on time as a higher priority for the staff than for the customers.

But how long? 10 mins? 30 mins? 2 hours? An unknown amount of time? There has to be a limit.

 

[43066]

But how long? 10 mins? 30 mins? 2 hours? An unknown amount of time? There has to be a limit.

Indeed. And it’s hardly practical when there are other passengers who will be stranded elsewhere. It’s just shifting the problem elsewhere.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The young person in question was 16 years old. Does that make him a still a minor?

Yes, in law. And in particular, you cannot sue a minor, so if he can't (or won't) pay his taxi/hotel bill there is nothing the driver/hotelier can do about it. (So it's money up front or you're not getting in).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

it might have been an issue with crew hours.

It might, but the crew weren't the only people who needed to get home - and at least they were being paid.

 

[Gloster]

I may be old railway, but it always was a ‘stay to finish’ job. If you had to go over your rostered hours or maximum hours to get things sorted out, you did. The management would back you without quibble if your overtime was necessary. Of course there were people who waltzed off and left others to sort things out, and there are still people who will stay on to help, but the balance seems to have changed. Whether it is changed staff attitudes or management ones or something else entirely, it is not a positive change.

 

[Western Sunset]

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) defines a child as everyone under 18 unless, "under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier".

Adult rail fares begin at 16. The antiquated British railways fare structures date back to an age when most 16 years had left school and were working for a living. Hope said lad had an adult ticket, otherwise TiL might pounce...

 

[norbitonflyer]

If there is somewhere I need to be and it’s absolutely vital I am there I take the car. We can argue til the cows come home that there can be traffic, or I could breakdown, and of course both of these are only a small percentage of potential road based delays but using previous experience of both methods (including over 300,000 miles of driving ) I know which IS the most reliable.

Moreover, if the road is blocked the car is not going to go off and leave me in the cold by the side of the road. And if it breaks down, again I can stay in it until the AA come, and they will, if necessary, take me home as well as the car. (And the AA will give you updates as to when they are coming too, and in my experience usually err on the cautious side)

If I had been stranded in the situation described, once it became apparent that SWR's promised help hadn't come (ask the crew when the promised road transport is expected and add say 30 minutes to allow for over-optimism) and there was no response from the help point, I would phone 101 (non-emergency police number) and let them know we were there (I bet they can contact SWR's control!) Number of passengers, any unaccompanied minors, whether there is shelter, whether locked in. In very poor weather, or if anyone is in medical distress, or likely to endanger themselves (e.g walking off down the track, climbing over fences), it would be 999.

 

[Horizon22]

I may be old railway, but it always was a ‘stay to finish’ job. If you had to go over your rostered hours or maximum hours to get things sorted out, you did. The management would back you without quibble if your overtime was necessary. Of course there were people who waltzed off and left others to sort things out, and there are still people who will stay on to help, but the balance seems to have changed. Whether it is changed staff attitudes or management ones or something else entirely, it is not a positive change.

But the crew didn't necessarily make the decision to terminate at Yeovil Junction. The line was blocked (or that seems to be the consensus here). If the train was running considerably late already, the back working from Yeovil Junction would have been around about the right time departure. I would also presume it is the same crew working the train back.

 

[Busaholic]

I may be old railway, but it always was a ‘stay to finish’ job. If you had to go over your rostered hours or maximum hours to get things sorted out, you did. The management would back you without quibble if your overtime was necessary. Of course there were people who waltzed off and left others to sort things out, and there are still people who will stay on to help, but the balance seems to have changed. Whether it is changed staff attitudes or management ones or something else entirely, it is not a positive change.

Or the change from being run, however imperfectly, by a nationalised body to one run by mostly incompetent and greedy private operators with shareholder profits in mind?

 

[jon0844]

I will happily be forced off a train by an officer, because I've then got an authority figure stood in front of me with a direct line the TOCs control room. I wouldn't do enough to be arrested and as I said the BTP aren't exactly based locally to 90% of the UK stations so callout times can vary putting pressure on the TOC to fix it rather than hold their crew at a station for 2 hours until the BTP arrive.

I'd think it more likely that local police would deal with it. BTP don't exclusively deal with railway incidents, even if there are certain things only BTP can deal with. Getting someone off a train is not such an example.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) defines a child as everyone under 18 unless, "under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier".

Adult rail fares begin at 16. The antiquated British railways fare structures date back to an age when most 16 years had left school and were working for a living. Hope said lad had an adult ticket, otherwise TiL might pounce...

The only law applicable to the child which makes him an adult at 16 is that relating to fares. Paying an adult fare does not automatically make you an adult in any other interaction with the railway - buying an adult ticket does allow a 16-year old to buy alcohol on railway premises. Thus he was, under child protection law, an unaccompanied minor.

 

[Tomnick]

I may be old railway, but it always was a ‘stay to finish’ job. If you had to go over your rostered hours or maximum hours to get things sorted out, you did. The management would back you without quibble if your overtime was necessary. Of course there were people who waltzed off and left others to sort things out, and there are still people who will stay on to help, but the balance seems to have changed. Whether it is changed staff attitudes or management ones or something else entirely, it is not a positive change.

It was still relatively early in the evening though, with a number of Down trains still to come and a number of Up trains needing to be started short at Yeovil. You can't just leave a train stood in a platform indefinitely without screwing the job up even further, not just for those on the following trains but also for those waiting to travel in the other direction!

It's a difficult position for the traincrew, and the inevitable consequence of an increasingly destaffed railway, but they couldn't stay there forever. Explaining the situation honestly, and taking anyone back to Salisbury who wanted to go back, would be a sensible course of action on the face of it, but we don't know the full facts of course.

 

[jon0844]

Oh yes they do. They're perfectly capable of picking up their phone and ringing up local taxi companies. Or having the traincrew speak to taxi drivers if there are any at the station rank, and giving them an IOU or (perish the thought) some cash from the guard's float.

The fact that the railway has decided to implement taxi booking in such a cack-handed manner isn't a defence. To the contrary, it's an indictment of the pathetic bureaucracy of today's railway.

It makes more sense to use an agency that can do the booking centrally, and keep track of each individual vehicle, than any of these suggestions. Staff phoning around cab companies? That'll take hours and stop them literally doing anything else. And how much of a float does a TM carry to pay for 20-30 taxis at midnight?? Dig into the corporate credit card they carry for emergencies? IOUs for taxi drivers? Yeah, they'll accept those - not (but there are dockets they can issue, but there's no reason to accept them and many taxis will refuse and hope passengers will decide to use them instead of waiting, and get paid straight away).

Those who love Uber or the like would also quickly discover that once a few people make a search for a taxi from the same location, surge pricing would kick in. Again, those drivers will seek to get those jobs than a standard paid gig.

The same company that books taxis can also organise accommodation, so it makes far more sense to outsource this than expect individual stations or train crew to do it.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2021 ==

The best form of communication (and I know hindsight is a wonderful thing) is to tell the passengers all of the facts, and let the passengers make their own decisions. e.g.

1. The line going forward is blocked, and there won't be any trains going further than this station tonight.
2. We have tried to arrange transport, but given the weather, it is unlikely to materialise.
3. We suggest you do one of four things:
   1. go back to where you started
   2. go back to Salisbury where there will be more staff to assist and more facilities (e.g. hotels)
   3. retrace your steps and see if you can get to Exeter via GWR
   4. try to sort out your own transport

I think it is the lack of full communication and provision of all the known facts to pssenegers which make this sort of situation so bad for passengers.

You'd never know if people had been given some advice like that, as some will travel regardless of warnings. They're hardly going to admit later on that they'd been told of possible disruption but ignored it, or maybe didn't listen to announcements because they were wearing their fancy NC headphones.

 

[nanstallon]

I'd think it more likely that local police would deal with it. BTP don't exclusively deal with railway incidents, even if there are certain things only BTP can deal with. Getting someone off a train is not such an example.

Police always at the service of bullying authority.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) defines a child as everyone under 18 unless, "under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier".

Adult rail fares begin at 16. The antiquated British railways fare structures date back to an age when most 16 years had left school and were working for a living. Hope said lad had an adult ticket, otherwise TiL might pounce...

I remember when it was 14.

 

[Western Sunset]

I remember when it was 14.

I didn't want to rub it in...

 

[pompeyfan]

Moreover, if the road is blocked the car is not going to go off and leave me in the cold by the side of the road. And if it breaks down, again I can stay in it until the AA come, and they will, if necessary, take me home as well as the car. (And the AA will give you updates as to when they are coming too, and in my experience usually err on the cautious side)

If I had been stranded in the situation described, once it became apparent that SWR's promised help hadn't come (ask the crew when the promised road transport is expected and add say 30 minutes to allow for over-optimism) and there was no response from the help point, I would phone 101 (non-emergency police number) and let them know we were there (I bet they can contact SWR's control!) Number of passengers, any unaccompanied minors, whether there is shelter, whether locked in. In very poor weather, or if anyone is in medical distress, or likely to endanger themselves (e.g walking off down the track, climbing over fences), it would be 999.

I would not expect BTP or Somerset and Avon police to be particularly concerned if no crime or threat to life was occurring. You might imagine they were preoccupied dealing with trees on the roads or flooding etc.

 

[Pigeon]

The response of customer service seemed perfectly reasonable to me: people should not be travelling alone if they are incapable of dealing with disruption which might occur.

Oh come off it. We know that this chap would have needed two hundred and fifty pounds just to get some kind of onward transport, and then we can suppose there would have been some accommodation fee needed on top, which itself would not have been cheap. It isn't remotely reasonable to expect everyone to be carrying that sort of money around with them on the off chance that the railway might randomly decide to dump them on a shelterless station in the middle of nowhere. It's not even reasonable to expect them to even have that much money at all.

I do agree that this particular 16-year-old sounds like a pathetic wimpy mummy's boy who hasn't been brought up to be able to take care of himself, and his mum would be doing better to be teaching him a bit of nous rather than inviting all the similarly-inclined Guardian readers to go "awww" and pat him on the head. Me, at 16, I'd have at the least walked into Yeovil and found somewhere I could get out of the weather for free. But that is irrelevant. It's not at all unlikely, for instance, for J. Random Passenger to have some kind of medical problem by reason of which they aren't able to do something like that (me at my current age), and they should not be left in that kind of situation in the first place.

The very least the railway could have done would be to unlock at least one room on the station so people could get out of the weather. Even if it was only the toilets, at least it's somewhere to sit down. If the train itself was not stranded, but was able to go back to Salisbury or wherever and let the crew get home, then they should have offered the passengers the option of going back on it themselves and sheltering on Salisbury station for the night; if the train was stranded, then let the passengers stay on board until they can cram into whatever transport turns up for the crew. Whine whine whine regulations blah safety whine can't do that is not an excuse because if the description of the weather is accurate then the risk of someone ending up with hypothermia from lack of shelter for the night is the most significant danger and to dismiss that for bureaucratic convenience is not valid.

 

[Taunton]

I understood from the article that in this case the station was not locked up leaving passengers unable to exit, but unstaffed and therefore with the buildings and shelter inaccessible.

I guess you don't know Yeovil Junction, which is absolutely in the middle of nowhere; the long station approach doesn't even have any lighting, or pavement, and just leads down to a country road, likewise. It's several miles to Yeovil town, which is in the next county - Junction station is in Dorset, not inconsequential because it impacts which taxis are allowed to ply for hire there. For the people saying contact the police, it's not even in the Avon & Somerset Police area that Yeovil town is; civilian police would have to come from Dorchester (although the Somerset police are not particularly jobsworths and would have very likely attended until all were taken care of).

The railway might as well have dumped them on the ballast between stations, and driven off back to Salisbury.

Yeovil Junction station approach road (daylight view):

England - Google Maps