GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[foggy69]

That's mostly the point of emergency timetables - reduce the service but to a reliable and stable level & ensures consistency across the route as opposed to ad-hoc cancellations disproprotionately affecting some areas worse than others and at differing times of day.

The East Grinstead service has been increased. It has been hourly during the day for months, it is now half houly, back to what it was before the pandemic.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The East Grinstead service has been increased. It has been hourly during the day for months, it is now half houly, back to what it was before the pandemic.

Like #205 some routes have a better service than they've had for sometime.

 

[Capvermell]

So as someone who is currently entirely reliant on trains from Ockley station (only served by Southern) for transport and now reduced to the extremely unsatisfactory no evening services at all from Dorking to Horsham Saturday timetable what I want to know is why has a Christmas Period only rail timetable (which is either a Sunday or a Saturday service depending on the line in question) been extended by Southern for at least another week after the Christmas Period rather than them simply reverting to the full COVID lockdown period timetable of much of 2020 in which Dorking to Horsham was still served on both weekday and Saturday evenings and in the off peak period in the middle of the day by a Dorking to Horsham shuttle train service.

Clearly the week after Christmas has a completely different pattern of likely rail use from Christmas itself and also far less drivers and guards/traiin supervisors will be rostered off on annual leave due to family commitments. With that being so and Victoria clearly being available again for trains to run in to this week (following the alleged major signal works projects during Christmas Week that provided a justified reason for diverting all services to London Bridge) I cannot see any justification at all for Southern simply carrying on with the Christmas Period only timetable in to the following week. The full lockdown period timetable was carefully worked out to continue to provide rail service to almost all destinations for key workers, albeit it at a considerably lower frequency than normal, and in particular between Dorking and Horsham does not leave us with simply no train service at all and instead at the mercy of the time and a half all day Sunday taxi tariff of the Mole Valley District Council area taxi driving bandits (who have somehow also managed to lean on Uber drivers not to operate out of Dorking as a town at all).

Bottom line is I understand about all the extra people off sick due to Omicron and the current obsession with testing but even so I do not see any possible justification for continuing a Christmas only timetable in to a non Christmas week when the COVID lockdown period timetable was already designed and available and clearly provides a far more appropriate service pattern for weekday train services in a normal COVID affected week outside the main Christmas period.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So as someone who is currently entirely reliant on trains from Ockley station (only served by Southern) for transport and now reduced to the extremely unsatisfactory no evening services at all from Dorking to Horsham Saturday timetable what I want to know is why has a Christmas Period only rail timetable (which is either a Sunday or a Saturday service depending on the line in question) been extended by Southern for at least another week after the Christmas Period rather than them simply reverting to the full COVID lockdown period timetable of much of 2020 in which Dorking to Horsham was still served on both weekday and Saturday evenings and in the off peak period in the middle of the day by a Dorking to Horsham shuttle train service.

Clearly the week after Christmas has a completely different pattern of likely rail use from Christmas itself and also far less drivers and guards/traiin supervisors will be rostered off on annual leave due to family commitments. With that being so and Victoria clearly being available again for trains to run in to this week (following the alleged major signal works projects during Christmas Week that provided a justified reason for diverting all services to London Bridge) I cannot see any justification at all for Southern simply carrying on with the Christmas Period only timetable in to the following week. The full lockdown period timetable was carefully worked out to continue to provide rail service to almost all destinations for key workers, albeit it at a considerably lower frequency than normal, and in particular between Dorking and Horsham does not leave us with simply no train service at all and instead at the mercy of the time and a half all day Sunday taxi tariff of the Mole Valley District Council area taxi driving bandits (who have somehow also managed to lean on Uber drivers not to operate out of Dorking as a town at all).

Bottom line is I understand about all the extra people off sick due to Omicron and the current obsession with testing but even so I do not see any possible justification for continuing a Christmas only timetable in to a non Christmas week when the COVID lockdown period timetable was already designed and available and clearly provides a far more appropriate service pattern for weekday train services in a normal COVID affected week outside the main Christmas period.

Because as mentioned many times there wasn’t time to plan anything else. The COVID lockdown timetable wasn’t ‘available’ as you describe.

There is far more to a trainplan than the public facing timetable you mention but there’s the whole resource base behind it, rolling stock diagrams, traincrew diagrams and traincrew rosters. The base traincrew rosters as services have been restored are different from the COVID lockdown timetable therefore it would be a lot of planning work to fit those lockdown rosters onto the existing staff roster, get it wrong and you have drivers booking on at the wrong times etc and the service falls apart.

Hopefully that explains how this decision ended up having to be ‘resource led’ everyone knows it’s not ideal and that’s why there’s a new plan being created as soon as possible (the week after).

 

[JN114]

The reasons are eloquently outlined already throughout this thread, but the essence is that at short notice and with virtually no staff available to replan the train service at such short notice; Southern took the decision to rollover the London Bridge diversions timetable from the previous week - a simpler exercise in the planning/control world than digging out and reinstating an older timetable from months ago - which wouldn’t necessarily be compatible with other operators trains along the line of route etc etc - lots of things to check through that would take literally thousands more work hours to achieve.

You may not see that as justified, or as extreme. But that is the plain reality of it.

 

[Class 466]

So as someone who is currently entirely reliant on trains from Ockley station (only served by Southern) for transport and now reduced to the extremely unsatisfactory no evening services at all from Dorking to Horsham Saturday timetable what I want to know is why has a Christmas Period only rail timetable (which is either a Sunday or a Saturday service depending on the line in question) been extended by Southern for at least another week after the Christmas Period rather than them simply reverting to the full COVID lockdown period timetable of much of 2020 in which Dorking to Horsham was still served on both weekday and Saturday evenings and in the off peak period in the middle of the day by a Dorking to Horsham shuttle train service.

Clearly the week after Christmas has a completely different pattern of likely rail use from Christmas itself and also far less drivers and guards/traiin supervisors will be rostered off on annual leave due to family commitments. With that being so and Victoria clearly being available again for trains to run in to this week (following the alleged major signal works projects during Christmas Week that provided a justified reason for diverting all services to London Bridge) I cannot see any justification at all for Southern simply carrying on with the Christmas Period only timetable in to the following week. The full lockdown period timetable was carefully worked out to continue to provide rail service to almost all destinations for key workers, albeit it at a considerably lower frequency than normal, and in particular between Dorking and Horsham does not leave us with simply no train service at all and instead at the mercy of the time and a half all day Sunday taxi tariff of the Mole Valley District Council area taxi driving bandits (who have somehow also managed to lean on Uber drivers not to operate out of Dorking as a town at all).

Bottom line is I understand about all the extra people off sick due to Omicron and the current obsession with testing but even so I do not see any possible justification for continuing a Christmas only timetable in to a non Christmas week when the COVID lockdown period timetable was already designed and available and clearly provides a far more appropriate service pattern for weekday train services in a normal COVID affected week outside the main Christmas period.

The covid lockdown timetable was over a year ago (nearly 2) now - interactions with other operators services would be different, the diagrams would all need to be re done too. They had a week to come up with a solution and when you've got a service that is working fine, it's best to copy that over whilst a longer term solution is worked on. Any change on the SN side also means changes for TL and then consequently that'll have effects on both the MML & ECML.

 

[Capvermell]

Hopefully that explains how this decision ended up having to be ‘resource led’ everyone knows it’s not ideal and that’s why there’s a new plan being created as soon as possible (the week after).

Southern's own PR notice of 4th January linked to in the email they sent me and to be found at www.shorturl.at/kmHZ1 claims that "By reducing the service, we aim to provide more certainty over which trains will and will not run for those that are travelling and reduce unexpected cancellations". and then goes on to say that "From Monday 10 January 2022 until further notice. We will provide details of the service we plan to operate as soon as possible. Some services to and from London Victoria will be re-introduced"

However I would like to respond to that by saying that it is not absolutely not better to have the certainty that I will only have a Saturday service with no evening train services and no early morning services on a weekday and I would rather take my chances with an attempt by Southern to run the full weekday timetable with say 40% of those services being cancelled (which I could then check online before I set off to make the 0.8 mile walk to catch the train) as it would still means some trains being available to me in the early morning and late evening and would also mean that Southern would have to pay me compensation for any cancelled journey and/or provide a replacement taxi for my journey where they cancel the last scheduled train of the day. A permanent Saturday service simply means that you can't make many journeys at all and also that you the rail user are then forced to pay the vast extra amount for a taxi if you still want to go out at times of day when trains are no longer available but were formerly available (under the regular timetable).

I would like to know if Southern is only offering a Sunday rail service or Saturday rail service (for lines like Dorking to Horsham that have no Sunday service at all) on all its lines this week or if some lines like the good old Brighton Main Line (seemingly the jewel in Southern's crown) are actually still enjoying a full Monday to Friday service level up to London but with the minor inconvenience of trains terminating at London Bridge instead of London Victoria.

Also if Southern is only capable of or at least willing to provide us with a Saturday/Sunday level of service this week then in my book weekend fare rules should also apply and hence I should be able to get my one third Network Card discount on all fares at all times of day and not only on services with fares over £13 leaving after 10am when the vastly reduced level of service means I have to be back home again by just after 6pm. It does seem to me that the very least Southern could do would be to drop the £13 minimum Network card fares and make the one third discount available on all trains in order to make up for leaving us with a Saturday only service.

Also Southern's regular Saturday only service timetable between Dorking and Horsham is completely and utterly unacceptable as this incident highlights with that Saturday service with no evening service (which already stops anyone using the train going out in London to the theatre or for a meal on Saturday) being an almost totally useless service, especially if also transferred to a normal working weekday. We folks in the forgotten straw chewing badlands South of Dorking don't actually need a train every single hour of the day on either Saturday or Sunday (realistically there aren't enough passengers to sustain that frequency of service) but for those who do not have the option of using a car even a train once every 2 hours service would do so long as it could be provided on both Saturday and Sunday from the morning until the late evening..............

Re having the resources to run the timetable since Southern weren't expecting to run this Saturday timetable (at least it is Saturday from Dorking to Horsham and I expect it is a Sunday timetable on many of their other lines with better Sunday Services) then how come they mysteriously did have the resources available to to run the between Christmas and New Year timetable when clearly many of the drivers who worked that timetable would surely have been rostered off on one or more days this week.

In my book Southern is running a Christmas Week timetable again this week simply because it thinks it can get away with it and ramp up its profits by spending less on paying staff because in the mindset of many people the week after the main Christmas Break period (which this year was confined to only one working week rather than spread across two weeks due to the dates) is still a Christmas Week.

I think Southern have behaved quite reprehensibly but there is nowhere I can get a sensible hearing for that view given Southern's cynical elimination of all of its Meet The Manager sessions (with no online meeting replacement provided) for the last two years and due to running a call centre with Teleperformance with staff hired only for their ability to tolerate minimum wage and lousy job conditions and with no passion for or interest of any kind in the rail services provided to the beleaguered rail passenger. Staff in Southern's Teleperformance contact centre literally have no knowldedge of or interest in what services have been cancelled this week and/or how in that situation might change or develop going forwards. It isn't the fault of the individual employees but the combined fault of Teleperformance and Southern in giving them almost no information to give to passengers about the current changes or how the situation is going to develop going forwards.

Oh and I do think I should be able to claim for the cost of a taxi this week if I need to travel at times of day when Southern would normally be running a weekday train service but have simply chosen not to run one for reasons of their own business expediency. Only by forcing GoVia group to compensate customers for not running the service they have previously committed to with the DfT do they any incentive at all to try and restore those train services again as soon as possible.

 

[Taunton]

So as someone who is currently entirely reliant on trains from Ockley station (only served by Southern) for transport and now reduced to the extremely unsatisfactory no evening services at all

Ockley station in normal times sees less than 100 passengers a day, and over the last year it has been a quarter of that - 25 per day. I can't see any justification, at a time of national resource shortage, to make any provision there at all. Having had an hourly daytime service each way all this year, that's an average of less than one passenger per train.

Service stops early evening? I think in the current circumstances you will just have to accept it.

 

[Capvermell]

Service stops early evening? I think in the current circumstances you will just have to accept it.

And there I'm sure speaks a hypocrite living close to a station and bus routes with regular and frequent services.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

The question here is whether the rail industry can just stop serving stations for significant periods of time? Yes, it is legally possible but at the cost of pressure to address what some might argue was a loophole in the current rules. Clearly these are hugely challenging times, but one does need to think about how some of the railway's internal operational issues are perceived by the political audience. How difficult would it really be to at least to add in a Dorking - Horsham shuttle.... with a standalone driver and conductor roster ... and with no operational linkage North of Dorking? Sure, there would be many issues with even this as posters here will be quick to point out, but even SNCF manages a minimum level of service across its network during strikes.... er....because it is legally required to.....

Even if a train is not possible, shouldn't SN be obliged to provide an on-demand taxi service at each of the affected stations?

 

[Capvermell]

Even if a train is not possible, shouldn't SN be obliged to provide an on-demand taxi service at each of the affected stations?

And then that would also give them a financial incentive to not withdraw train services entirely at less popular times of day on what they apparently deem to be Cinderella Train Lines........

Also under the Lockdown Timetable of most of last year a shuttle train between Dorking and Horsham was indeed instituted during off peak parts of weekdays and in the evenings as well as for the first time on a Saturday evening.

 

[Taunton]

And there I'm sure speaks a hypocrite living close to a station and bus routes with regular and frequent services.

Well the 99.9% of your fellow village inhabitants who go everywhere by car clearly accepted it long ago, and for whom the railway station is of buggerall usage.

Meanwhile, I'll just accept this personal libel here about myself, which appears to join your railway company, your local taxi drivers, and other recipients of the Ockley hyperbole.

 

[Capvermell]

Well the 99.9% of your fellow village inhabitants who go everywhere by car clearly accepted it long ago.

Around 1800 people live in Ockley and Capel (as the station used to be called given that it is nearer to Capel but just in Ockley parish) so by my calculations around 50 regular rail users (outside the COVID period) of the station comes to significantly more than 0.1% of the population...................

 

[ashkeba]

A permanent Saturday service simply means that you can't make many journeys at all and also that you the rail user are then forced to pay the vast extra amount for a taxi if you still want to go out at times of day when trains are no longer available but were formerly available (under the regular timetable).

Forced to pay for a taxi? Can you ride a bicycle? I know it is not ideal or sustainable or to be encouraged, but it would seem to solve your immediate problem during this national crisis and stations on other lines are only 6 miles away from Ockley, rather than the 25 more common in real straw-chewing country.

Other than that, have you emailed Southern as well as posting here? Ideally about the early end of service on that line and not suggesting that reverting to the 2020 lockdown timetable would be easy or other things they can easily dismiss as uninformed crayoning.

 

[Bald Rick]

following the alleged major signal works projects during Christmas Week that provided a justified reason for diverting all services to London Bridge

I’ve never heard of signalling works being described as “alleged”. They either happened or they didn’t!

 

[Capvermell]

I’ve never heard of signalling works being described as “alleged”. They either happened or they didn’t!

I presume the week long Christmas closure of Victoria was in some manner associated with implementation of some aspect of the below several year long package of works by Network Rail.

See www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/sussex/london-victoria-track-and-signalling-upgrades/

Or the by comparison almost totally uninformative in respect of the actual works (and instead focused only on the periods when services are affected) Southern Rail information page about the works at www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/london-victoria-closures

 

[zwk500]

I presume the week long Christmas closure of Victoria was in some manner associated with implementation of some aspect of the below several year long package of works by Network Rail.

See www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/sussex/london-victoria-track-and-signalling-upgrades/

It was, but the point is they were very much actually happening rather than 'allegedly'. The works were finished on time by the contractors and handed back to NR ready for service on the 4th January.

 

[Capvermell]

It was, but the point is they were very much actually happening rather than 'allegedly'. The works were finished on time by the contractors and handed back to NR ready for service on the 4th January.

Of course begging the question as to why Southern/GoVia wants to continue to inconvenience its customers by still terminating all services at London Bridge for another week.

As the extra week of altered timetable wasn't announced in advance and hence the relevant drivers weren't appropriately rostered I don't see why this further week long extension of the Christmas Timetable is so fantastically easy to implement on almost no advance notice.................

 

[Bishopstone]

Victoria to East Croydon, South Croydon, and Epsom service groups resume as of Monday 10th.

Will now be interesting to see whether, and which, other service groups get cut as Victoria services are reintroduced, reference my post #205.

 

[Horizon22]

Victoria to East Croydon, South Croydon, and Epsom service groups resume as of Monday 10th.

Will now be interesting to see whether, and which, other service groups get cut as Victoria services are reintroduced, reference my post #205.

Are they going to be seperate routes/diagrams or will South Croydon / East Croydon be combined into one overall train?

 

[zwk500]

Of course begging the question as to why Southern/GoVia wants to continue to inconvenience its customers by still terminating all services at London Bridge for another week.

As the extra week of altered timetable wasn't announced in advance and hence the relevant drivers weren't appropriately rostered I don't see why this further week long extension of the Christmas Timetable is so fantastically easy to implement on almost no advance notice.................

As has been explained, GTR didn't have the drivers available to operate the full service. Their only option was to either hack about with the full plan and cross their fingers, which would have placed a huge burden on control and massively impacted passengers who couldn't make plans, or to operate the most recent restricted service timetable and offer passengers some level of certainty. The Christmas plan would have had all the diagrams and rosters sitting there so the roster clerk would 'only' have had to put a name to 'diagram 1'. Taking the second option also meant that if more drivers than expected were available, control could make a decision about running additional trains towards Victoria if required.

I doubt it's been fantastically easy to implement. Just a darn sight easier to do than a completely new plan.

 

[mirodo]

Are they going to be seperate routes/diagrams or will South Croydon / East Croydon be combined into one overall train?

Services will operate to and from London Victoria on the following routes:

• Four trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Clapham Junction, Streatham Common and East Croydon
• Two trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Battersea Park, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Selhurst, East Croydon and South Croydon
• Two trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Battersea Park, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East and Epsom

Train Timetable | Train Times | Southern Railway

Find and download the train timetable for your route.

www.southernrailway.com

 

[ctrh136]

Are they going to be seperate routes/diagrams or will South Croydon / East Croydon be combined into one overall train?

It's 4 trains an hour fast Vic to East Croydon calling at Clapham Junction and Streatham Common, 2 trains per hour all stations to South Croydon and 2 trains per hour all stations to Epsom.

 

[Horizon22]

Services will operate to and from London Victoria on the following routes:

• Four trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Clapham Junction, Streatham Common and East Croydon
• Two trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Battersea Park, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath, Selhurst, East Croydon and South Croydon
• Two trains per hour in each direction calling at London Victoria, Battersea Park, Clapham Junction, Wandsworth Common, Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East and Epsom

Train Timetable | Train Times | Southern Railway

Find and download the train timetable for your route.

www.southernrailway.com

Thanks for that. Looks like they'll be running that ECR-VIC shuttle after all then (although odd to see them call at Streatham Common). Glad to see it was able to arranged. Can't say I'd want to be in train planning's position these last 24 months with all these STP (or VSTP!) arrangements.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As has been explained, GTR didn't have the drivers available to operate the full service. Their only option was to either hack about with the full plan and cross their fingers, which would have placed a huge burden on control and massively impacted passengers who couldn't make plans, or to operate the most recent restricted service timetable and offer passengers some level of certainty. The Christmas plan would have had all the diagrams and rosters sitting there so the roster clerk would 'only' have had to put a name to 'diagram 1'. Taking the second option also meant that if more drivers than expected were available, control could make a decision about running additional trains towards Victoria if required.

I doubt it's been fantastically easy to implement. Just a darn sight easier to do than a completely new plan.

Indeed and as a result Southern ran all but a handful of the main line L.Bdge services yesterday so anyone planning a journey will have largely completed it with certainty. Thameslink also did remarkable well ignoring the overnight cancellations from emergency engineering works.

 

[mirodo]

Interesting that South Croydon is getting a direct service to Victoria out of peak hours, which is not the case in the regular timetable. I'm assuming they've only extended the stopper to SCY as it's a convenient place to terminate and avoids blocking a platform at East Croydon.

 

[Horizon22]

Interesting that South Croydon is getting a direct service to Victoria out of peak hours, which is not the case in the regular timetable. I'm assuming they've only extended the stopper to SCY as it's a convenient place to terminate and avoids blocking a platform at East Croydon.

I would almost certainly think that's the reason with 4tph terminating at East Croydon. Purley would have been even more convenient I'd have thought though, but might require too many diagrams.

 

[JonathanH]

Purley would have been even more convenient I'd have thought though, but might require too many diagrams.

Who for? Purley is already occupied by splitting and joining trains. Putting a terminator there as well isn't helpful.

 

[mirodo]

Makes my South Croydon to Battersea Park commute (albeit for only 1 day a month) a lot easier - back to the good old days when there used to be an all day direct service. Long may it continue!

 

[Horizon22]

Who for? Purley is already occupied by splitting and joining trains. Putting a terminator there as well isn't helpful.

Saw it is still being used for the 2tph Cat&Tat so yes, less helpful.