Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[365 Networker]

The 313s have already all gone (apart from those on Southern).

Yes, I meant the 313s on the coastway lines.


If the 379s are to transfer to GN, will they get the full livery? It would be nice if they did some advertising liveries, a bit like the ones WAGN applied to some of the 365s.

 

[MotCO]

It’s usually mentioned in local news & media that she does & also uses a Senior Railcard.

I hope she remembers to carry her railcard with her, or else she may come on this forum looking for advice

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Yes, I meant the 313s on the coastway lines.


If the 379s are to transfer to GN, will they get the full livery? It would be nice if they did some advertising liveries, a bit like the ones WAGN applied to some of the 365s.

I was wondering if southern are still operating the rolling stock 313's?

 

[dk1]

I hope she remembers to carry her railcard with her, or else she may come on this forum looking for advice

Haha yes bless her heart. Never been onboard with her but have been with Prince Harry one Sunday.

 

[Fincra5]

I was wondering if southern are still operating the rolling stock 313's?

For now, yes...

 

[ashkeba]

if they go to the GN route, and have a change of interior, then I hope the interior is designed around the needs of day to day users, rather than one little old lady making a single return journey a year (and didn't even go this Christmas, increasing chances of never doing so again)

She does visit at other times. Quite an odd sight if you await a train at Ely while hers passes through with police keeping one coach nearly empty.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I hope she remembers to carry her railcard with her, or else she may come on this forum looking for advice

The Lady in Waiting will no doubt have the railcard to hand.

Funnily enough , never considered checking tickets when I had various Royalty on board service trains. RPI's were there to keep the population out of the 1st class....

 

[Mikey C]

The trouble with all these uniform fleets is, apart from that it simply shifts the issue elsewhere, that things change over time and suddenly it isn't a uniform fleet any more. Especially if fleet sizes are cut in response to Covid and then a few years down the line numbers come back and suddenly lots of fleets are too small.

Exactly, not everyone can have a uniform fleet, and can dump modern but non standard stock. And if fleets need topping up a few years down the line, different trains may need to be purchased anyway. Unless you then replace the entire fleet yet again!

C2C for example needed some more trains, so have ordered some 720s, which are significantly different from their existing 357s (24m vs 20m carriages for example). Maybe they should have been allowed to replace their entire fleet (of perfectly good 357s) to have a uniform fleet as well...After all what happens to the 357s isn't their problem

 

[JonathanH]

C2C for example needed some more trains, so have ordered some 720s, which are significantly different from their existing 357s (24m vs 20m carriages for example). Maybe they should have been allowed to replace their entire fleet (of perfectly good 357s) to have a uniform fleet as well...After all what happens to the 357s isn't their problem

The point has been raised previously that it would have been more sensible to bring in older trains at c2c than go for new build.

 

[CBlue]

I think it will be a big improvement for the Cambridge services, not sure to be honest if they have too much first class accommodation, they have less than the 365s, the last train on that line that had real first class seats, but agree in terms of space used it may be too much. One for a different thread I guess, but I expect the 387s / 700s have damaged the 1st class market from Cambridge, but even in standard class these trains will be a major comfort improvement.

Devil's advocate here but why would anyone shell out extra for first class on a 45 minute journey between London and Cambridge - the only time I considered it was at the height of covid restrictions so I wouldnt find myself crammed in with other people.

 

[Nym]

Why were replacements for the 379s ordered anyway?

Yes they would be non standard with the Aventras and Stadlers, but they'll now be non standard in somebody else's fleet.

Leasing costs.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly, not everyone can have a uniform fleet, and can dump modern but non standard stock. And if fleets need topping up a few years down the line, different trains may need to be purchased anyway. Unless you then replace the entire fleet yet again!

C2C for example needed some more trains, so have ordered some 720s, which are significantly different from their existing 357s (24m vs 20m carriages for example). Maybe they should have been allowed to replace their entire fleet (of perfectly good 357s) to have a uniform fleet as well...After all what happens to the 357s isn't their problem

potentially no need for any extra stock on C2C now and they should be reallocated elsewhere or just cancelled.

 

[O L Leigh]

Moved to here as probably speculative.

 

[ashkeba]

Devil's advocate here but why would anyone shell out extra for first class on a 45 minute journey between London and Cambridge -

Because if travelling beyond London on an Advance, it may cost little more and give other benefits beyond the extra space on Great Northern. Nicer seats and more room than standard would encourage it more.

 

[JonathanH]

However, I don't really think that the Cl379s are a particularly good fit for GN. They are not dual-voltage capable and have a very different internal layout to the Cl387s

The layout isn't that different. The seats are arranged slightly differently but the partitions, toilets and other functions are all in the same place. Removing some luggage racks isn't exactly a big deal. I'm not sure why dual voltage is needed to run on the GN.

 

[O L Leigh]

The layout isn't that different. The seats are arranged slightly differently but the partitions, toilets and other functions are all in the same place. Removing some luggage racks isn't exactly a big deal.

Seating in standard is 2+2 not 2+3 on a Cl387 using a different seat design.

I'm not sure why dual voltage is needed to run on the GN.

For GN it isn't, but for GTR it might be. A Cl387 can be used anywhere on their network but a Cl379 cannot. It's not a major consideration at the moment, but a consistent fleet might be preferable to an operator that uses both electrification systems.

 

[JonathanH]

Seating in standard is 2+2 not 2+3 on a Cl387 using a different seat design.

Class 387 is very definitely 2+2 in standard class (but the seat handles are more jarring on the eye).

 

[O L Leigh]

Class 387 is very definitely 2+2 in standard class (but the seat handles are more jarring on the eye).

Apologies. I've never had the (mis)fortune to ride on one.

 

[55002]

It’s mad the 40 year old 317s remain whilst the far newer air con 379s are leaving.. all timing I know but still. I remember the 317s being stored in Nottingham sidings before bedpan duties when I was younger, and now I’m 52. And they still going on west anglia

 

[Fincra5]

Seating in standard is 2+2 not 2+3 on a Cl387 using a different seat design.



For GN it isn't, but for GTR it might be. A Cl387 can be used anywhere on their network but a Cl379 cannot. It's not a major consideration at the moment, but a consistent fleet might be preferable to an operator that uses both electrification systems.

GN doesn't need any DV units (apart from the 717s for the Drain), so not sure why they wouldn't be a fit for GN. Internal modifications aren't much and they're probably due an internal refresh anyway!

 

[47421]

Exactly, not everyone can have a uniform fleet, and can dump modern but non standard stock. And if fleets need topping up a few years down the line, different trains may need to be purchased anyway. Unless you then replace the entire fleet yet again!

C2C for example needed some more trains, so have ordered some 720s, which are significantly different from their existing 357s (24m vs 20m carriages for example). Maybe they should have been allowed to replace their entire fleet (of perfectly good 357s) to have a uniform fleet as well...After all what happens to the 357s isn't their problem

GA of course does not have a uniform fleet. The failure to deliver the timetable improvements promised in 2016 for 2020 on GE n rural routes means there is now a surplus of bimodes and not enough IC Stadlers to resource the Norwich LivSt timetable in place for last 10+ years of 2TPH plus peak extra.

With no Lowestoft to LivSt through services, no enhanced Ips Peterborough and Norwich Yarmouth service happening now, looks like there will be six or so bimodes spare at Crown Point clocking up leasing charges for DfT/taxpayers for the foreseeable future.

 

[ashkeba]

GA of course does not have a uniform fleet. The failure to deliver the timetable improvements promised in 2016 for 2020 on GE n rural routes means there is now a surplus of bimodes and not enough IC Stadlers to resource the Norwich LivSt timetable in place for last 10+ years of 2TPH plus peak extra.

Wasn't the plan to use a double bimode for the peak extra NiNnies, once passenger working in multiple was approved? The acceleration would make recovering from delays easier.

 

[Railperf]

Wasn't the plan to use a double bimode for the peak extra NiNnies, once passenger working in multiple was approved? The acceleration would make recovering from delays easier.

IIRC that is right. Though there was also a plan to use a pair of bi-modes to combine and divide a daily London to Lowestoft service at Ipswich - which appears to now be binned.

The rocketship acceleration of the 755/3's on electric certainly makes you feel that they could speed up services over a 745. In reality a 755/3 on electric starting from Stowmarket is only 10 secs quicker passing Needham Market than a 745 - both doing 100mph at that point. To put that into perspective - the 745's are appx 30 secs quicker than a Class 90 from a Stowmarket Stand to passing Needham on a dry rail - and definitley faster in the wet!

Getting back to the 379's, it is scandalous that they will be moved into warm store - while the clapped out 317s remain (until displaced by enough 720's) . Looks like a financial decision taken here rather than keeping passengers happy. (I'm told the Class 379 leasing charges are way higher than the 317's)

Trouble is there aren't enough 720's to provide an all Class 720 on the GEML yet. Still plenty of 321's in service. So it looks like WAML will be a mix of 317/720 in the coming months then. That will please WAML pax!

 

[RailWonderer]

IIRC that is right. Though there was also a plan to use a pair of bi-modes to combine and divide a daily London to Lowestoft service at Ipswich - which appears to now be binned.

Which is why testing in multiple has effectively been sidelined. When a 755 deputises for a 745, it runs as a 4 car only.
As for the 379s, they would likely lead to a small revival of first class travel on GN owing to their seating, and there are definitely some Cambridge and KL passengers that would pay for it too, given they’re some of the best first class seats in the UK. It would be a shame if they changed out the seats, but hopefully they cut costs and just do the seat covers and tables which badly need a refresh.

 

[O L Leigh]

GN doesn't need any DV units (apart from the 717s for the Drain), so not sure why they wouldn't be a fit for GN. Internal modifications aren't much and they're probably due an internal refresh anyway!

Addressed at post #46.

By the way, I moved my post to the Speculative Discussion sub-forum on the basis that it was, well, speculative. There's only discussion of my thoughts here because @JonathanH replied to it before it was moved.

 

[bramling]

GN doesn't need any DV units (apart from the 717s for the Drain), so not sure why they wouldn't be a fit for GN. Internal modifications aren't much and they're probably due an internal refresh anyway!

I can’t help but see some irony that money will be spent on making alterations to the 379s, yet the 365s had only recently had a fairly extensive refurbishment!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

Which is why testing in multiple has effectively been sidelined. When a 755 deputises for a 745, it runs as a 4 car only.
As for the 379s, they would likely lead to a small revival of first class travel on GN owing to their seating, and there are definitely some Cambridge and KL passengers that would pay for it too, given they’re some of the best first class seats in the UK. It would be a shame if they changed out the seats, but hopefully they cut costs and just do the seat covers and tables which badly need a refresh.

There will have to be some level of alteration to the 379s, for the simple reason that there’s too much first class in them currently, which of course has implications for standard class capacity. Likewise the luggage racks which won’t be needed on GN. It isn’t just a case of moving antimacassars around like on the 387s, as the seats are different.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With no Lowestoft to LivSt through services, no enhanced Ips Peterborough and Norwich Yarmouth service happening now, looks like there will be six or so bimodes spare at Crown Point clocking up leasing charges for DfT/taxpayers for the foreseeable future.

Maybe the DfT should send them to Northern, who allegedly need more DMUs/bi-modes to eliminate 769s, and kill two birds with one stone.
But then we are back to micro-fleets again.

 

[43102EMR]

I can’t help but see some irony that money will be spent on making alterations to the 379s, yet the 365s had only recently had a fairly extensive refurbishment!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==


There will have to be some level of alteration to the 379s, for the simple reason that there’s too much first class in them currently, which of course has implications for standard class capacity. Likewise the luggage racks which won’t be needed on GN. It isn’t just a case of moving antimacassars around like on the 387s, as the seats are different.

Not really - bare in mind the 365s had two first class cabins at each end of the unit, which is the equivalent of the 379s only have one which takes up half the carriage. I personally think it would be an ideal situation for Cambridge Cruiser passengers.

 

[D365]

I can’t help but see some irony that money will be spent on making alterations to the 379s, yet the 365s had only recently had a fairly extensive refurbishment!

It wasn’t a great refurbishment though was it

 

[Railperf]

So WAML customers are going to experience a drop in reliability due to the Class 379s (25,000 - 25k- miles per technical incident - MTIN) going off lease early and leaving behind a mixture of Class 317s (9k MTIN) and 720/5's 5(5.7k MTIN). That's great progress!!! And a service reduction too from Monday 10th!