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Tea and biscuits on sleepers

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StephenHunter

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What were the biscuits in question? Also, my 1967 Eastern Region timetable refers to "minerals"... was that just mineral water?

When did BR actually start doing hot food on sleepers?
 
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Bletchleyite

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The term "minerals" is an old fashioned term for soft drinks i.e. Coke, lemonade etc. Mineral water wasn't really a thing in the UK until the 90s. You drank it in France because the tap water was allegedly not trustworthy, but not at home.
 

tbwbear

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I remember getting custard creams just before arriving from Kings Cross at Edinburgh one morning back in the early 80s.

My 1966 LMR timetable mentions "breakfast trays" (wonder what that was?) on some of the sleepers, plus a full restaurant car to Crewe and from Perth for Inverness on the Royal Highlander. "The nightcap bar" on the Euston Glasgow service is also mentioned.
 

StephenHunter

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I remember getting custard creams just before arriving from Kings Cross at Edinburgh one morning back in the early 80s.

My 1966 LMR timetable mentions "breakfast trays" (wonder what that was?) on some of the sleepers, plus a full restaurant car to Crewe and from Perth for Inverness on the Royal Highlander. "The nightcap bar" on the Euston Glasgow service is also mentioned.
My guess for "breakfast trays" would akin to what you get now on Caledonian Sleeper and Nightjet, for example, namely a selection of hot or cold breakfast items brought to you on a tray by the attendant. The Night Ferry, with restaurant cars both ends, did not have that as routine, but it could be provided for passengers who required it due to mobility issues or paid the tip for it.
 

Cheshire Scot

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My 1966 LMR timetable mentions "breakfast trays" (wonder what that was?) on some of the sleepers, plus a full restaurant car to Crewe and from Perth for Inverness on the Royal Highlander. "The nightcap bar" on the Euston Glasgow service is also mentioned

My guess for "breakfast trays" would akin to what you get now on Caledonian Sleeper and Nightjet, for example, namely a selection of hot or cold breakfast items brought to you on a tray by the attendant.
I suspect in that era the 'breakfast tray' would be cold, having been brought onto the train at an intermediate station, perhaps Preston or Crewe (Southbound) or Carlisle (northbound) - all of these stations had all night buffets - with orders having been phoned ahead and then distributed by the sleeping car attendants ahead of arrival in London or Glasgow (Inverness and Aberdeen sleepers tended to breakfast served in a restaurant car attached earlier in the morning, e.g. Perth. as mentioned, for Inverness, and at Edinburgh for Aberdeen. In Mk1 sleepers the attendants had the facility to provide hot drinks but no means of providing and hot food.
 
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tbwbear

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What cooking / heating equipment would the old pantry on the Mk1 have had then ? They must have been able to have been able to do hot drinks, what about toast, did they have a toaster?

My guess for Breakfast tray would be more grapefruit, toast, jam, cornflakes in a small indivdual packet with milk..... but that is just a pure guess. Assume it was pre-loaded to order and warmed on board ? Maybe ?

Something else I never knew - but noticed in the timetable - you could get returnable lunch box packs with vacumm flasks from station buffets = how civilised !
 

StephenHunter

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What cooking / heating equipment would the old pantry on the Mk1 have had then ? They must have been able to have been able to do hot drinks, what about toast, did they have a toaster?

My guess for Breakfast tray would be more grapefruit, toast, jam, cornflakes in a small indivdual packet with milk..... but that is just a pure guess. Assume it was pre-loaded to order and warmed on board ? Maybe ?

Something else I never knew - but noticed in the timetable - you could get returnable lunch box packs with vacumm flasks from station buffets = how civilised !
Did they have plug sockets for electric shavers as well?
 

Cheshire Scot

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What cooking / heating equipment would the old pantry on the Mk1 have had then ? They must have been able to have been able to do hot drinks, what about toast, did they have a toaster?

My guess for Breakfast tray would be more grapefruit, toast, jam, cornflakes in a small indivdual packet with milk..... but that is just a pure guess. Assume it was pre-loaded to order and warmed on board ? Maybe ?

Something else I never knew - but noticed in the timetable - you could get returnable lunch box packs with vacumm flasks from station buffets = how civilised !
Only a hot water geyser operated by bottled gas - so a constant supply of boiling water, but absolutely nothing else. I think your guess would be reasonably close to the mark, apart from the toast (no means of heating) so maybe bread or rolls, and an individual butter pack.

Looking at the ScR 1966 TT, 23.10 Euston to Perth 'sleeping car passengers joining the train at stations up to and including Crewe' (wow, joining at Crewe at 02.15) could order a breakfast tray, so at a guess orders collated between Crewe and Preston, phoned ahead from Preston (03.32) and put on the train at Carlisle (05.35)

Did they have plug sockets for electric shavers as well?
Sorry, that I don't recall, and never having had an electric razor I would not have missed such a socket if it wasn't there.
 
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tbwbear

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so at a guess orders collated between Crewe and Preston, phoned ahead from Preston (03.32) and put on the train at Carlisle (05.35)
Makes perfect sense. My LMR timetable (only London to Carlisle shown in the main part) has that train as arriving at Carlisle at 05.17, so lots of time to load the trays. Somewhere there might even be a photograph of a breakfast tray !
 

Cheshire Scot

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Did they have plug sockets for electric shavers as well?
Sorry, that I don't recall, and never having had an electric razor I would not have missed such a socket if it wasn't there.
Update: A photo in the book 'Anglos Scottish Sleepers' by David Meara has a photo (page 39) from a BR publicity leaflet (quoting 1959 berth prices) detailing the interior features of a Mk1 sleeping compartment shows 'H' 'electric shaver point', presumably fed from the lighting circuits. When I read this book I found it sadly lacking in detail but it has come up trumps in this respect.
 

Gloster

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My guess it that it would be fairly basic in a little cardboard tray with cellophane over the top. Bread roll, individual pat of butter, small pot of jam or marmalade, hard boiled egg, possibly an apple or similar. Cereal and a bowl with some milk would probably be a bit difficult to organise and not spill. I don’t think it was intended to be a full breakfast, just something to keep you going for an hour or two, like the the tea (and toast or biscuit) that a maid would bring round in country houses of yore to carry people through until they had gone through the lengthy process of dressing and gone down to the usual fourteen course breakfast. I think that in many places BR had an arrangement with local hotels for people coming off sleepers to have breakfast in them (and not just BTH hotels).
 

PG

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My first thought when I saw the thread title was something to do with railway staff being 'invited' for an interview with their manager to clarify something, although it seems more often referred to as being "Tea, no biscuits" as a euphemism for getting a telling off!
 

delt1c

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The Fortwilliam sleeper used to have day coaches and a restaurant car added at Glasgow Queen St and famous for its Breakfast. Used it several times in the 70’s and can say it was the finest breakfast I have had on the Network
 

Cheshire Scot

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In the fifties two restaurant cars were attached at Carlisle to Glasgow bound sleepers, respectively via Beattock and Dumfries although both returned out of use on a parcels train, whilst the Euston to Perth sleeper attached a restaurant car at Carstairs and that returned on the mid day Perth to Euston which then attached to a train from Glasgow which already had a restaurant car. Hard now to imagine a restaurant car crew based at Carstairs.

Going back to the 1960s breakfast trays, back then 1/4 pint cartons of milk were available, perhaps a means of providing the milk for cereal without which the tray would probably be very uninteresting.
 

Bletchleyite

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Possibly, but I suspect milk would be provided for tea and, well, milk is milk.

Did they have the little UHT pots back then, or would it more likely have been a small metal jug of the kind you can never seem to pour without throwing everywhere?

The Fortwilliam sleeper used to have day coaches and a restaurant car added at Glasgow Queen St and famous for its Breakfast. Used it several times in the 70’s and can say it was the finest breakfast I have had on the Network

I must admit that the Highlander, and specifically the FW rather than the much shorter Aberdeen, is one of the best cases for a proper restaurant car (which the lounge car sort-of is) in the UK. I can't see any point in them on the Lowlander - with a journey of only about 8 hours, you really want to get your head down rather than spend it getting drunk or having a 5am fry-up. Otherwise the point of the Sleeper (rather than just taking a seat) is somewhat negated.

I know a few Lowlander users like a "wee dram" before bed, but this could, with the late departure time, be taken in a lounge at the station. On board, there's not a need for much more than a basic trolley service for insomniacs, if anything at all beyond water.

The two groups of services have a very different character, which this thread suggests that olde-worlde BR recognised.
 

ChiefPlanner

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BR era sleeper bottled water was a (small) Malvern Water bottle. As bottled water was pretty unheard of in the 1970's , this was quite exotic.

Morning tea and biscuits was a bit hit and miss - on 2 Anglo Scottish trips , (one Deltic hauled !) , none provided. As this was not long after the Taunton fire , I duly wrote into the Scottish region to complain and got a not committal response (no refund) - and the blame was firmly put on the "English" regions for not supplying staff.

I think I mentioned before about the "offerings" on the Caledonian sleeper "Nightcap Bar" - McEwans and pork pie basically. Even as student we thought this was a poor show.
 

52290

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My partner and I traveled on the Sud Express from Irun to Lisbon in 2008. There were no 'wee drams' but there were two small bottles of Port and some nuts in our compartment. IIRC the fare included a meal in the restaurant car with a half bottle of wine as well as breakfast.
 

Gloster

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Possibly, but I suspect milk would be provided for tea and, well, milk is milk.
A reason for doing it this way is that the breakfast tray, being dry, can be easily stored and handed out without risk of spillage. The small pot and the milk for the tea are on the same small tray, so all the careful handling is concentrated in one place. Additionally, I don’t think that the compartments had fixed full tables, just small shelves. There was room to put your tea-cup, teapot and milk jug on the side, but not to handle a bowl of cereal and enough milk to put on it.
 

Cheshire Scot

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As said, no fixed tables although an alternative might be to place the tray - or trays - on the sink cover which was normally closed and was a flat surface, and larger than the small shelf which as noted is where the small tray with individual tea pot and milk jug plus cup and saucer (and of course the biscuits) were normally placed.
 

John Luxton

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BR era sleeper bottled water was a (small) Malvern Water bottle. As bottled water was pretty unheard of in the 1970's , this was quite exotic.
When I used sleepers quite a few times 78-79 it a was Schweppes still water. Looked like Schweppes Sodawater but the label was white if I recall.

I also recall one could order crackers, cheese and biscuits from the attendant which was a few jacobs crackers, a pat of butter and a slice and a segment of Dairy Lea or similar. Came in a sealed pack with a small plastic spreader.

I think the price was around 25p if I recall correctly
 

The exile

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Did they have the little UHT pots back then, or would it more likely have been a small metal jug of the kind you can never seem to pour without throwing everywhere?
Little china jugs - those “for one” had no handles; those for two did. Still have one of the larger ones, bought at Haymarket open day in 1985 as “ex-sleeper”
 

Cheshire Scot

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BR era sleeper bottled water was a (small) Malvern Water bottle. As bottled water was pretty unheard of in the 1970's , this was quite exotic.
Before that it was a decanter of tap water.
I also recall one could order crackers, cheese and biscuits from the attendant which was a few jacobs crackers, a pat of butter and a slice and a segment of Dairy Lea or similar. Came in a sealed pack with a small plastic spreader.
Yes, I remember that and I recall there was a small fridge in the attendants compartment to keep the milk and butter chilled.
 

Chipsetburden

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The term "minerals" is an old fashioned term for soft drinks i.e. Coke, lemonade etc. Mineral water wasn't really a thing in the UK until the 90s. You drank it in France because the tap water was allegedly not trustworthy, but not at home.
I learnt that the hard way in Russia, I ended up with diarrhea after drinking tap water in my hotel room because it was so hot everywhere!
 

davetheguard

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I think I mentioned before about the "offerings" on the Caledonian sleeper "Nightcap Bar" - McEwans and pork pie basically. Even as student we thought this was a poor show.

Ah! The delights of McEwans Export in the '70s; I'd forgotten about that. Fizzy & metallic, truly awful. Does it still exist, or has it gone the same way as Worthington E & Watneys Red Barrel?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Ah! The delights of McEwans Export in the '70s; I'd forgotten about that. Fizzy & metallic, truly awful. Does it still exist, or has it gone the same way as Worthington E & Watneys Red Barrel?
Still available & now brewed (since 2017) by Marston's.
 

Taunton

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I must admit that the Highlander, and specifically the FW rather than the much shorter Aberdeen, is one of the best cases for a proper restaurant car (which the lounge car sort-of is) in the UK.
The Royal Highlander, at least northbound, was the last "dinner bed & breakfast" train in Britain, into the 1970s. There was a vacuum-braked restaurant car, well after air brake became normal on the WCML, from Euston, which was detached at Crewe, and then a separate Scottish Region internal restaurant car was attached at Perth in the morning. This latter must have been a rather challenging duty, the Inverness-based car and crew came southbound for the Highlander dinner service, detached at Perth, and then had many hours to wait before at about 5am they got going again for the northbound breakfast run.
 

Cheshire Scot

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The Royal Highlander, at least northbound, was the last "dinner bed & breakfast" train in Britain, into the 1970s. There was a vacuum-braked restaurant car, well after air brake became normal on the WCML, from Euston, which was detached at Crewe, and then a separate Scottish Region internal restaurant car was attached at Perth in the morning. This latter must have been a rather challenging duty, the Inverness-based car and crew came southbound for the Highlander dinner service, detached at Perth, and then had many hours to wait before at about 5am they got going again for the northbound breakfast run.
In 1973 2000 Kings Cross to Aberdeen and Fort William still had RB and RU to York and RB and BSO from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, plus RB from Glasgow to Fort William.

By this time the RU for the up Highlander worked empty from Perth to Inverness on the 'Perth Mail' except that on summer Saturday mornings it attached to the relief Glasgow to Inverness and on Sundays to the morning Edinburgh to Inverness, in both cases to serve lunch. In this era it would have been a Perth crew.

In the era when it served the Highlander both ways I always assumed(wrongly?) also a Perth crew albeit that would have been a longer turn of duty than if it was an Inverness crew spending much of the night in Perth, but long hours were not unusual for restaurant crews then, e.g the 06.00 Glasgow to Mallaig crew got back around 20.30 - and 22.30 albeit just a one man crew reduced to a buffet when the southbound was retimed later.
 

6Gman

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Update: A photo in the book 'Anglos Scottish Sleepers' by David Meara has a photo (page 39) from a BR publicity leaflet (quoting 1959 berth prices) detailing the interior features of a Mk1 sleeping compartment shows 'H' 'electric shaver point', presumably fed from the lighting circuits. When I read this book I found it sadly lacking in detail but it has come up trumps in this respect.
Mk I sleepers definitely had shaver points.

I made the mistake of trying to use it while we were standing at Paddington. For about ten seconds it worked perfectly but then switched to slowly tearing out hairs individually very, very slowly. And very painfully.

:D
 

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When I used sleepers quite a few times 78-79 it a was Schweppes still water. Looked like Schweppes Sodawater but the label was white if I recall.
Something, perhaps, like this bottle of "Drinking water"? No idea how long it's been knocking around the house, or why...
Schhhh.jpg
 
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