Transport Scotland - STPR2 - summary report published

[och aye]

Transport Scotland have published the Summary Report for Strategic Transport Projects Review 2.

From a rail interest point of view here's what has been recommended:

• 15 Highland Mainline rail corridor enhancements
• 16 Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen rail corridor enhancements
• 17 Edinburgh/Glasgow-Perth/Dundee rail corridor enhancements

There are also mentions of rail freight, Glasgow Metro, decarbonisation, Edinburgh Trams, possible Stranraer station relocation and other station enhancements as well.

Summary Report – January 2022 – STPR2 | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

There is an "interactive" page to view the various Key Stages available here too, it's a bit of a mess to use but click on 4. Recommendations > Recommendations by Mode and then select Rail and Rail Freight Terminals and Facilities for details:

Experience

experience.arcgis.com

Consultation is open until 14 April 2022 if anybody would like to provide feedback:

Consultation on the draft second Strategic Transport Projects Review (STPR2) for Scotland | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

 

[oldman]

Is there any significance in the lack of any mention of extending the Borders line? This statement suggests reopenings are not on the agenda.

Future passenger rail investment should therefore be targeted on the strongest city-to-city markets as the routes where the greatest value from improvements will be realised.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any significance in the lack of any mention of extending the Borders line?

Notwithstanding occasional statements from politicians, and of course much comment on these pages, extending the Borders line has never really been a realistic prospect.

 

[clc]

Is there any significance in the lack of any mention of extending the Borders line? This statement suggests reopenings are not on the agenda

It is mentioned:

9.10.3. Extension of Borders Railway The Borderlands Inclusive Growth Deal includes up to £10m of funding, £5m from the Scottish Government and £5m from the UK Government, to develop a shared understanding of the benefits and challenges of options to extend the Edinburgh – Tweedbank Borders Railway to Carlisle. This will include the undertaking of feasibility work to further develop the business case for the reinstatement of the railway. The Scottish Government will continue to work with Borderlands Partners on this commitment.

 

[oldman]

So it's in the technical report but not in the 45 'priorities' in the Summary Report.

 

[Wynd]

It certainly appears that new rail and expansion of the network are not on the agenda, which is in breach of the agreement made with the Greens.

This wont do.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It certainly appears that new rail and expansion of the network are not on the agenda, which is in breach of the agreement made with the Greens.

This wont do.

The plans do include new rail expansions for example in Glasgow with the Clyde Metro.

 

[Wynd]

The plans do include new rail expansions for example in Glasgow with the Clyde Metro.

Are these not making use of already existing infrastructure?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Are these not making use of already existing infrastructure?

Some of them are but a few them are set to be disused railways as well and new lines for example to the airport is new. Some is existing but some of it is reinstated and new lines.

 

[Wynd]

Some of them are but a few them are set to be disused railways as well and new lines for example to the airport is new. Some is existing but some of it is reinstated and new lines.

Do we have a numerate answer for this question? 20% new railway? 10%?

 

[Starmill]

It certainly appears that new rail and expansion of the network are not on the agenda, which is in breach of the agreement made with the Greens.

This wont do.

This was the remit handed to Transport Scotland. Although it is worth noting that this goes a long way back before the May 2021 elections. Anything that significantly expands the operating subsidy isn't going to make the cut i.e. all passenger rail services in Scotland except for the E&G.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jan 2022 ==

Do we have a numerate answer for this question? 20% new railway? 10%?

No. It needs to be studied much more thoroughly. This project is to set the strategic direction of transport across the whole country for the coming decades (i.e. it is not even just public transport, it's active travel and freight too).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Do we have a numerate answer for this question? 20% new railway? 10%?

Your asking a question no-one can answer. It isnt stated. Its not just public transport in there it includes roads too.

 

[Starmill]

Your asking a question no-one can answer. It isnt stated. Its not just public transport in there it includes roads too.

And active travel, ferries and islands links, and freight.

 

[clc]

One very interesting proposal is to convert the Argyle Line and the Milngavie and Singer branches to ‘heavy metro’. Milngavie and Singer services would no longer go through Partick but would be rerouted via a combination of disused tunnels and a new section of track between Hyndland and the Botanic Gardens.

 

[Red Onion]

A bit disappointed to see no consideration given to the partial reopening of the Formartine & Buchan line to Ellon.

 

[Bald Rick]

A bit disappointed to see no consideration given to the partial reopening of the Formartine & Buchan line to Ellon.

Thats not going to happen - see the thread on the subject from a year or so ago.

 

[Starmill]

A bit disappointed to see no consideration given to the partial reopening of the Formartine & Buchan line to Ellon.

There's no consideration for anything in the plan that might need increased railway operational subsidy. It's not just Ellon being picked on.

The timetable reorganisation coming this year should provide enough of a saving to cover for the increased train km that would have otherwise been necessary to begin serving Leven. There is a view that Leven shouldn't be being served at all, given that it can only be done at the expense of better used services elsewhere, where demand is already proven. But given Transport Scotland and Scottish Ministers had already signed off for the capital spending on the Levenmouth line, it was too late to stop it, and politically the line once built must be served.

 

[Wynd]

A bit disappointed to see no consideration given to the partial reopening of the Formartine & Buchan line to Ellon.

Quite, we were a little surprised given that it was in the draft STPR2 and it forms a key part of the Green/SNP Co-operation deal. Meetings are being held accordingly and the media picked up the story with us last week. Its also worth noting that STPR2 isn't necessarily the forum for announcing Rail enhancements.

Thats not going to happen - see the thread on the subject from a year or so ago.

Why would one say such a thing? Do you know something we do not? In the interests of transparency, I am co-chair of CNER.

Scotland and Scottish Ministers had already signed off for the capital spending on the Levenmouth line, it was too late to stop it, and politically the line once built must be served.

Leven is a good case, particularly on the freight potential. Delighted to see it progressing.

Hot off the press, G Dey has resigned as transport minister.

 

[Starmill]

Why would one say such a thing? Do you know something we do not?

Because it has a poor business case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

Leven is a good case, particularly on the freight potential. Delighted to see it progressing

The Leven services would have been a good addition to the subsidised railway if the pandemic hadn't hit funding available so significantly, or if the government were willing to keep increasing annual funding.

 

[Wynd]

Because it has a poor business case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==


The Leven services would have been a good addition to the subsidised railway if the pandemic hadn't hit funding available so significantly, or if the government were willing to keep increasing annual funding.

May I presume you are referencing the business case made in the 2017 study? the one with the mis-allocated capital costs and very limited freight revenue?

I take the long view that rail will recover provided we work to capture and ever greater market share of the travelling public. Even though that number may be fewer today, we cant know for sure that wont change.

 

[PG]

Do you know something we do not?

Due to their experience I'd say @Bald Rick almost certainly knows something we don't.

There is an "interactive" page to view the various Key Stages available here too, it's a bit of a mess to use but click on 4. Recommendations > Recommendations by Mode and then select Rail and Rail Freight Terminals and Facilities for details:

Experience
experience.arcgis.com

So it's in the technical report but not in the 45 'priorities' in the Summary Report.

Almost as if they've deliberately made it awkward to access...

 

[Bald Rick]

Why would one say such a thing? Do you know something we do not? In the interests of transparency, I am co-chair of CNER.

For clarity, I don’t know the current position on this proposal and have no involvement with it; I am not privy to ‘inside information’ on it (and wouldn’t be sharing it here, if I was).

So I should clarify - in my opinion, it’s not going to happen.

As explained on the other threads on the subject, it would be the best part of £2bn, and there is no hope of making a remotely viable business case.

Aberdeen to Fraserburgh and Peterhead: what would the technical challenges to reopening be?

Leaving aside the political and economic case for this, what are the technical challenges to re-open this line?

www.railforums.co.uk

Could the Formartine and Buchan line be reopened?

Edited per request. This line has long been discussed for reopening having only closed in the late 70s. Given this nearly all of the locum, at least out to Ellon, remains intact and well maintained. The two major obstacles to reopening is a remodelling of Dyce which was the junction between...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Wynd]

Both threads are closed. It would be nice to add updates to this accordingly as the campaign progresses. Work on the business case has been conducted so far but there is still work to be done.

I don't recognize the £2B figure. That feels very high given the work we have done so far and our familiarity of the route. We have it around £400m but, there will be things we haven't included, not to mention the drastic increase in the prices of things in recent months.

 

[lachlan]

Any word on what the corridor improvements will actually be? Last I checked, they couldn't decide what to spend £200m of funding on that has supposedly been on the table since 2008. Dualling south of Montrose ruled out after "it would only save 5 minutes".

 

[Wynd]

Michael Matheson gave an answer to Liam Kerr that the improvements may not result in capital spend north of Edinburgh Dundee* which implies signaling etc improvements between Dundee and Edinburgh to achieve the journey time savings sought.

Indeed, Usan dueling returned a very very poor business case saving only 3 mins IIRC.

*correction

 

[Starmill]

For clarity, I don’t know the current position on this proposal and have no involvement with it; I am not privy to ‘inside information’ on it (and wouldn’t be sharing it here, if I was).

So I should clarify - in my opinion, it’s not going to happen.

As explained on the other threads on the subject, it would be the best part of £2bn, and there is no hope of making a remotely viable business case.

Aberdeen to Fraserburgh and Peterhead: what would the technical challenges to reopening be?

Leaving aside the political and economic case for this, what are the technical challenges to re-open this line?

www.railforums.co.uk

Could the Formartine and Buchan line be reopened?

Edited per request. This line has long been discussed for reopening having only closed in the late 70s. Given this nearly all of the locum, at least out to Ellon, remains intact and well maintained. The two major obstacles to reopening is a remodelling of Dyce which was the junction between...

www.railforums.co.uk

Of course, building it could cost £0 and it still wouldn't have a service because Transport Scotland are trying to reduce their ongoing subsidy to ScotRail, and cannot afford to run more trains without cutting back elsewhere.

 

[Wynd]

Of course, building it could cost £0 and it still wouldn't have a service because Transport Scotland are trying to reduce their ongoing subsidy to ScotRail, and cannot afford to run more trains without cutting back elsewhere.

So, how is Leven going to be served? The Borders extension is also DOA if the above is the position?

Is no one discussing how we drastically increase uptake, solving at a stroke the revenue issue? More passengers=more revenue=lower subsidy.

I must be missing something here...

 

[Starmill]

So, how is Leven going to be served?

As I pointed out in post 17.

The Borders extension is also DOA if the above is the position?

There's no more chance of this happening than a new route to Fraserburgh.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2022 ==

Is no one discussing how we drastically increase uptake, solving at a stroke the revenue issue?

It doesn’t really feature, no. We live in a country where we cannot even install mode filters without overwhelmingly negative public responses, let alone the road user charges that would be necessary to deliver this.

 

[Wynd]

As I pointed out in post 17.

There's no more chance of this happening than a new route to Fraserburgh.

Apologies, I have missed that, will go back and look.

Ok, understood, but this does beg a question. What is the route to reopening lines in the next 20 years if its not in STPR2? Sending out the message that there is no possibility of new rail in Scotland for two decades doesn't strike me as a wise or prudent move.

 

[Bald Rick]

Both threads are closed. It would be nice to add updates to this accordingly as the campaign progresses. Work on the business case has been conducted so far but there is still work to be done.

I don't recognize the £2B figure. That feels very high given the work we have done so far and our familiarity of the route. We have it around £400m but, there will be things we haven't included, not to mention the drastic increase in the prices of things in recent months.

You could, if you wished, report the last post in the most recent thread and ask the mods to reopen; alternatively start a new thread.

Re the costs - the cost of a new railway varies according to various factors, but a good working sum for future new railways is £30m per km. That is roughly what the current phase of East West Rail is costing. Many railways are much more expensive, a handful are cheaper. If your estimates are not in that ‘ball park’, you will need to have some compelling reasons to explain to those funding it why that is.

So, how is Leven going to be served?

By not running some other services, which have already been removed from the timetable and accounted for.