Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[Horizon22]

This is what annoys me, when network rail actually carry out the important safety work, the local MP kicks up a stink. See link below from West Leeds Dispatch.
And this is repeated all across the country. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Concern grows over rail-line vegetation removal as fight goes to Transport Secretary Grant Shapps - West Leeds Dispatch

Controversial work to remove vegetation around the track between Kirkstall Viaduct and Horsforth has been brought to the attention of Transport Secretary Grant Shapps – as West Leeds campaigners speak […]

westleedsdispatch.com

I guess the industry will have to try with a impactful story to go along with the next neighbourhood letter any time vegetation clearance is planned "In 2022, Storm Eustice felled over 100 trees onto railway lines which caused widespread disruption to services which is why this vegetation management is so vital"

 

[infobleep]

Pretty much. There would still be debris all over the track. A track clear of trains might have allowed crews to get to places easier, but then you wouldn't be running any trains nor be able to spot the issues

Anyway there's now more route proving going on across Western (about 10 routes) but wouldn't expect any more trains as crew are all over the shop and naturally unsure if they'll be making it back.

I'm surprised Govia Thameslink Railway has been running services from Haywards Heath. Were they lucky not to many many trees down, along their lines or at least Brighton mainline?

 

[zwk500]

I'm surprised Govia Thameslink Railway has been running services from Haywards Heath. Were they lucky not to many many trees down, along their lines or at least Brighton mainline?

They had plenty of trees down, although third rail tends to stand up slightly better than OLE to trees. It helped that NR and GTR got together and sent out trains and their 73 with people and chainsaws on board. They also focused on particular routes. The entire East Coastway line was shut for a long time but has now reopened much later than the main line, for example.

 

[londonmidland]

Tomorrow is continuing to look wet and windy, however not as bad as we’ve seen over the past 24 hours. Though this might affect recovery efforts and bring further disruption.

Below is a chart showing the maximum predicted wind gusts, for tomorrow at 12:00.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm surprised Govia Thameslink Railway has been running services from Haywards Heath. Were they lucky not to many many trees down, along their lines or at least Brighton mainline?

There certainly were trees, but in 3rd rail land it isn't always as bad because of the extra attention the OLE needs (not to say the 3rd rail isn't dangerous!). And focussing on a specific route probably helped.

 

[Cowley]

Tomorrow is continuing to look wet and windy, however not as bad as we’ve seen over the past 24 hours. Though this might affect recovery efforts and bring further disruption.

Below is a chart showing the maximum predicted wind gusts, for tomorrow at 12:00.

View attachment 110444

Still quite lively down my way.
My wheelie bin is going to wish it had never been born.

 

[infobleep]

They had plenty of trees down, although third rail tends to stand up slightly better than OLE to trees. It helped that NR and GTR got together and sent out trains and their 73 with people and chainsaws on board. They also focused on particular routes. The entire East Coastway line was shut for a long time but has now reopened much later than the main line, for example.

Well how come the South Western mainline into London is closed? Did they not do this? Or did they have more trees down?

 

[zwk500]

Well how come the South Western mainline into London is closed? Did they not do this? Or did they have more trees down?

I'm afraid I don't know what happened on the South Western.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well I can attest to why the trees feel down at Greenbank and Mobberley as our bin was over and we had to tie up our gate as the bolt had popped out of it's latch. Me and my dad were blown around whilst trying to tie the gate up.

Just to note, things are running again between Chester and Manchester, so touch wood, things are calming down up here.

 

[driverd]

You can have all the policies about "protection for customers" you want . If a tree takes the wires down and they're trapped on a train in the middle of nowhere miles from an access point and hundreds of miles from the nearest loco that can pull it away you are as good as stranded anyway.

In this incredibly rare set of circumstances (in terms of % of trains run vs % of trains ending up in this situation, we must be nearing 0.01%, even on a disrupted day), I think most customers would sympathise and understand. It won't be perfect for everyone and will likely be uncomfortable, but these 100(ish) stranded customers are more than offset by the many thousands who can get home.

Even if you manage to get the train to a point that it can be evacuated if you then have difficulties sourcing onward road transport you are again as good as stranded. We've seen some fatal and serious incidents today on the roads as well.

Which are the exact roads those thousands of rail passengers end up on when you remove all the trains.

What then ? Put everyone up for the night . That's not going to be good enough for some passengers and depending on where you are won't be possible at short notice anyway . Again realistically you are again as good as stranded .

In fairness its usually possible for the minority of customers who can't just go home. There will always be a handful and the TOCs should make provisions for them - indeed, this should be enshrined in your rights (and usually is, except when they pre-cancel). Realistically, the bulk of customers will make their own arrangements as a long wait for a possibly mediocre hotel room really isn't all that desirable, but it's better than nothing.

The messaging of "Do not travel" and if you have then chosen to do so we cannot guarantee your journey is really Just making passengers aware of the reality of the situation.

I entirely agree and support that.

I think people often misunderstand my position. I'm not saying trains should run, come what may. I wholeheartedly support what AWC, Thameslink, Northern et al have done today by introducing a sensibly reduced timetable to ensure service resilience and provide a level of service as long as they are capable.

What I don't support is a nationwide rail shut down (ie: Wales, Scotland on Weds), "just incase".

 

[infobleep]

Because Gatwick is full of people who've just returned from holiday, so shifting them safely is a big concern. Also drivers may still be out of position so this helps get staff (and stock) back nearer where they need to be. There is also supposed to be a major blockade of keymer jn starting tomorrow, which needs the right number of trains either side to run the intended service (although I don't know if that has been pulled after the storm).

What about people at Gatsick Airport needing to get to places along the North Downs Line or even to stations on South Western Railway?

 

[muz379]

I think people often misunderstand my position. I'm not saying trains should run, come what may. I wholeheartedly support what AWC, Thameslink, Northern et al have done today by introducing a sensibly reduced timetable to ensure service resilience and provide a level of service as long as they are capable.

What I don't support is a nationwide rail shut down (ie: Wales, Scotland on Weds), "just incase".

I wonder though what impact out of place units and severely late finishing crew might have on start of service tomorrow morning . Northern at least have got plenty of units out of place including units at places that aren't traditionally used to stable them .

It probably won't be as bad because it's a Saturday which usually starts off slow . If it was a weekday it might not be so good.

Idk about Thameslink but Northern , TPE , AWC who all run services today did have "Do not travel" messaging and haven't been looking to run replacement road transport for some of the hefty cancellations so not sure how that fits in with your passenger protection.

I can see the merits of both approaches but also the major drawbacks to both.

 

[Irascible]

Tomorrow is continuing to look wet and windy, however not as bad as we’ve seen over the past 24 hours. Though this might affect recovery efforts and bring further disruption.

Looking at the forecast for Lyme Bay, wind from SW gusting up to 42kts at highest - that is about the same as this afternoon except now it's aiming more at the coast. Still probably be ok at Dawlish especially as most of it is when the tide is going out, but some other south coast areas might get a bit interesting. That's also probably enough to keep bringing trees down ( that's about 49mph ) especially if they got some damage today. Seems to be a squall predicted to blow up the channel without easing.

 

[The exile]

What about people at Gatsick Airport needing to get to places along the North Downs Line or even to stations on South Western Railway?

So just because you can't solve the problem everywhere you solve it nowhere - is that the suggestion? If you've got a route clear which has got somewhere like Gatwick on it (where people are arriving possibly having no knowledge of the weather conditions) and have the ability to start running trains to get them away, then do it - as long as you make it clear to people who need destinations further afield that there won't be any connecting services (i.e "at the moment we're running as far as Haywards Heath [just as an example] but there aren't likely to be trains beyond there till tomorrow, so you may find it better to stay here")

 

[driverd]

I wonder though what impact out of place units and severely late finishing crew might have on start of service tomorrow morning . Northern at least have got plenty of units out of place including units at places that aren't traditionally used to stable them .

I'm not going to deny its certainly a fair issue. My arguement would be that a handful of disrupted services the following day is better than 100s of cancellations the day before. I think, sometimes, it's also a question of willing a solution. I've certainly seen night drivers being used to reposition units, although this often depends on resource availability.

Idk about Thameslink but Northern , TPE , AWC who all run services today did have "Do not travel" messaging and haven't been looking to run replacement road transport for some of the hefty cancellations so not sure how that fits in with your passenger protection.

I'm not certain myself, but I suspect the provision of services that can get you there (ie: 1tp30min becomes 1tph) mitigates the requirements for rail replacement. Unsure how it plays out if a line has all services removed.

I can see the merits of both approaches but also the major drawbacks to both.

I don't disagree that it's always going to be a compromise, I just think complete removal of service provision has far more negative impact than dealing with the weather, as/if it happens.

 

[MikeWM]

GTR are already advising an all-day 'do not travel' on various routes tomorrow (ie. Saturday) and 'do not travel until 11am' on some others.

 

[richardcoughla]

Looks like Paddington has re-opened to TfL Rail but with Severe Delays

 

[infobleep]

So just because you can't solve the problem everywhere you solve it nowhere - is that the suggestion? If you've got a route clear which has got somewhere like Gatwick on it (where people are arriving possibly having no knowledge of the weather conditions) and have the ability to start running trains to get them away, then do it - as long as you make it clear to people who need destinations further afield that there won't be any connecting services (i.e "at the moment we're running as far as Haywards Heath [just as an example] but there aren't likely to be trains beyond there till tomorrow, so you may find it better to stay here")

Not at all, just pointing out people need to get to other places on other lines.

I am genuinely interested in how they were able to get the line going but not some of the others yet.

There will be a good reason for this and I'm just interested in it all.

I'm not certain myself, but I suspect the provision of services that can get you there (ie: 1tp30min becomes 1tph) mitigates the requirements for rail replacement. Unsure how it plays out if a line has all services removed.

South Western Railway did have rail replacement buses running for engineering works blockade but those were cancelled from 9:15 onwards and are still not running even now.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I wonder though what impact out of place units and severely late finishing crew might have on start of service tomorrow morning . Northern at least have got plenty of units out of place including units at places that aren't traditionally used to stable them .

I'd say it's a fair assumption. Some of my depot's early turns (0400-0700 type start times) were only getting back to depot around 1800-2100 this evening, having spent all day stranded on trains at stations when the decision to cease running at their next calling point was made and trees then falling left right and centre blocking their paths. Late turn crews weren't initially sent out to relieve them as taxis initially deemed too risky in the height of the storm, and later struggling with sourcing them, so with the minimum 12 hours rest between shifts rule the earliest some crews will be able to sign on for their 0400-0700 type start times tomorrow to get trains out of depots will be more in the region of 0800-0900 onwards. As of 0020, some trains still remain at random mid-route stations where they were at 1100 this morning. There will of course be some crews less affected today who will be in earlier, and perhaps others that were rest day today, but if the situation at my depot is similar in other places then its inevitable that the start of service in many places could be fairly heavily disrupted. And that's assuming the many trees still down now are all even cleared - and not added to further - overnight.

 

[infobleep]

GTR are already advising an all-day 'do not travel' on various routes tomorrow (ie. Saturday) and 'do not travel until 11am' on some others.

Interesting. This is what South Western Railway advise for tomorrow.

South Western Railway expect significant disruption across their network tomorrow morning (Saturday 19 February). Please ensure you check before you travel.

There is no do not travel advise at all. That only applied for Friday services once they weren't running any.

I'd say it's a fair assumption. Some of my depot's early turns (0400-0700 type start times) were only getting back to depot around 1800-2100 this evening, having spent all day stranded on trains at stations when the decision to cease running at their next calling point was made and trees then falling left right and centre blocking their paths. Late turn crews weren't initially sent out to relieve them as taxis initially deemed too risky in the height of the storm, and later struggling with sourcing them, so with the minimum 12 hours rest between shifts rule the earliest some crews will be able to sign on for their 0400-0700 type start times tomorrow to get trains out of depots will be more in the region of 0800-0900 onwards. As of 0020, some trains still remain at random mid-route stations where they were at 1100 this morning. There will of course be some crews less affected today who will be in earlier, and perhaps others that were rest day today, but if the situation at my depot is similar in other places then its inevitable that the start of service in many places could be fairly heavily disrupted. And that's assuming the many trees still down now are all even cleared - and not added to further - overnight.

Well any TOC who stopped services late morning / early afternoon and ain't run any more services will have lots if trains out of place.

Must be a fun job locating them all and get them to places they need to be on a Saturday.

 

[DNCharingX]

Quite the day for rail, and really interesting to see how different TOCs handled it. People are giving trees on the rail a lot of hate but realistically if it wasn't a tree it would be some other object.

If there's one thing that stood out to me, it's people travelling despite warnings not to and advance notice of this weather. I feel that some TOCs aren't helping to push this message by continuing to run services up until it's a health and safety issue, given that these trains could be stranded. Overall, things could have been much worse, so there's that to be grateful for, and the staff especially did an excellent job of weathering the social media storm.

 

[infobleep]

This is what Great Western Railway are saying regarding tomorrow

Travel on Saturday

Great Western Railway don't expect to run a train service until at least 10:00 tomorrow morning, with the majority of services not starting until the afternoon. Passengers are strongly advised to delay their journey until later in the day tomorrow, or if possible, until Sunday 20 February.

Lines into Devon and Cornwall have been severely affected and will remain closed until at least midday on Saturday 19 February with customers advised not to travel.

They seem less optimistic than South Western Railway, who say

South Western Railway expect significant disruption across their network tomorrow morning (Saturday 19 February). Please ensure you check before you travel.

Both say there will be disruption but SWR doesn't advise one not to travel.

 

[MikeWM]

Interesting. This is what South Western Railway advise for tomorrow.

GA have already cancelled everything off Cambridge and Stansted until 8am tomorrow morning; they haven't done that for any other lines yet.

GN services aren't cancelled yet but all have 'do not travel' next to them in NRs journey planner.

I'm wondering if there is some serious damage, or suspected serious damage at least, in the Cambridge area. Just a hunch, maybe entirely wrong.


Edit : GA now have *all* Cambridge to Liverpool Street trains marked as cancelled tomorrow. Stansteds still only cancelled until 8am at this point.

 

[bramling]

There is a big difference between a private citizen choosing to drive a car depite knowing the dangerous conditions outside and expecting other to do that for you. I'd argue TOCS "valiantly" soldiering on are more to blame as they've taken passengers somewhere in the morning and may not get back in the evening.

So I am warming to the idea of "stay at home" instructions for all folk in these types of rare extreme events.

There is a big problem with potential stranding when these things happen. We saw this with the Lewisham snow incident when the railway carried a load of people into London and couldn’t get them out again.

Personally I’d have run some first trains today to cater for shift workers, but suspended the service after about 0700. That would then have maximised the opportunity to resume in the early evening if the infrastructure allowed, whilst at the same time minimising the risk of trains getting damaged. I’d suggest the weather forecasting was accurate enough to have allowed this plan to be made.

The “run come what may” attitude doesn’t resolve the problem of stranding people, as in many cases it means you simply end up not getting where they wanted to be anyway, damaging assets, injuring passengers and staff, and possibly prolonging any restart.

 

[muz379]

I'm not certain myself, but I suspect the provision of services that can get you there (ie: 1tp30min becomes 1tph) mitigates the requirements for rail replacement. Unsure how it plays out if a line has all services removed

IM not talking about bus replacements not being sourced for lines that have seen a drop in train service I'm talking about not sourcing them for lines that didn't see a service since mid afternoon despite one being planned. Even some last trains on lines have seen cancellation without substitution.

 

[philthetube]

The magic, buses are always available scenario again, sorry most bus drivers are not going to come rushing out on a Saturday evening to help out the railway, and most bus owners are not going to ask them to, they value their drivers and vehicles too much.

 

[bramling]

The magic, buses are always available scenario again, sorry most bus drivers are not going to come rushing out on a Saturday evening to help out the railway, and most bus owners are not going to ask them to, they value their drivers and vehicles too much.

Yes some people do seem to think that it’s possible to shake a magic bus tree and a fleet of buses complete with drivers will appear.

This is viable in normal circumstances for localised disruptions, but it’s never going to be realistic when there’s multiple disruptions, then there’s the safety risk on top of that.

And knowing how flimsy buses are, I’m not sure I’d want to be on one in the height of a storm.

 

[Pete_uk]

How did the Great Western hold up? I saw the Cheltenham services were all canceled.

 

[miklcct]

How did the Great Western hold up? I saw the Cheltenham services were all canceled.

I have planned to meet a girl, living in Reading, in Guildford today at 8:15. But she has send me a notice by GWR that the whole network will be suspended until at least 10. Therefore I can do nothing to help her despite planning to hire a car for onward travel from Eastleigh in case the train on the SWR network can't run.

 

[MH211]

Does anyone know if the WCML is clear between Crewe and Euston? AWC is showing services running but not sure how accurate that info is, as they showed services running yesterday also…