Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[philthetube]

no, just thinking about the rail staff who were risking their lives avoiding low flying slates etc. If we carry on working this way in gales sooner or later their will be a disaster. Possibly killing a large number of people.

The risk to life of all needs to be considered,, health and safety seems to go out of the window in gales.

The risk of a head injury is much higher in a gale than working on the tracks but who wears the hard hat

 

[Peterthegreat]

Not sure if this is linked to after effects of storm Eunice or due to the forthcoming storm Franklin but Rotherham Central will be closed tomorrow due to expected flooding.

 

[Horizon22]

I was, given the "do not travel" order.

I just think a "travel at own risk" would have been more suitable for the circumstances.

You were sensible enough to make that assessment and understand the railway. Many do not have the same knowledge or understanding (loads didn't even realise there was a weather warning in place...) and therefore a stark warning will make people sit up and reassess. It's not really the time to be messing about with a half-hearted warning given just how much debris, trees & OLE damage there was and the very real risk of stranded trains (which did indeed happen).

Do not travel will capture everyone. If you want to take your chances - as you did - then so be it. But many don't feel that way and believe the railway will look out for them all the way even in the worst circumstances. And indeed most staff will do whatever they can to achieve this. This warning suggests actually despite best efforts, it's not going to be feasible to do that for everyone.

 

[dan5324]

There's two major difference between a coach and a train. Coaches can be stopped very quickly, and can be steered around obstructions on the road. Trains can do neither of those things.

Coaches can’t exactly be stopped very quickly granted, quicker than a train besides stopping distance isn’t going to make much of a difference if it falls just as the vehicle is passing. In any case, this was more of a jab at the customer service and willingness to get people to where they are going, rather than the operational screw ups.

 

[Horizon22]

There was clearly crew to run the replacement train that ran in empty from the south.

It is very easy to be "fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing the passenger" when it is not you being inconvenienced. When you are on the receiving end of that decision it feels like operational convenience trumps the passenger and that is very frustrating. I am grateful they organised another train and didn't leave us stood at Northampton (as they have before) but I fail to see why a train that had run well from Brum couldn't finish its journey to London. I am sure there is an excuse/reason but I fail to see it right now. I am sure this board will find many mind.

The Avanti services seem to be up the spout, people couldn't physically board the one that was running ( see above) and most others were cancelled. This meant that the LNWR was therefore equally rammed. Why is that a problem? well mainly because we are supposed to offer a service to the passenger but they seem like an after thought frankly!

No: I wouldn't be this evening - but hey, I am the just the poor sod walking home.

PS I know I am grumpy tonight but my overriding thought is that I wish I had driven. That's what I think and I am someone who wants to use the train. What is the average punter going to think? Might they, conceivably, not bother next time? If they do that we are in big trouble.

BTW A friend of mine offered me a lift today as he was off to Bristol to watch Boro play, I said no as I was going to meet my mates and have a few beers. He was home by 20:00. I am just walking in the house gone 22:00.

Everyone - even myself who knows what is happening in the background - gets annoyed at delays. So people look to things like "operational convenience" and "what a joke this is". As I said, even I have these thoughts and I am involved with making decisions to keep services running! Everything has a reason - now sometimes that might not have the immediate passenger front and centre. But perhaps it prevents a cancellation tomorrow or at the end of the day? There's a huge picture in the background and sometimes it feels like robbing Peter to pay Paul, but ultimately something has to give at some point when you are given a number of possible solutions.

It's been a difficult few days for the railway and I'm sure everyone would like it to have been smoother and help passengers get to where they want to go without major delays. Sometimes when pressures get so high "a train that runs" is the minimum expectation. It's far from ideal, but if people can be assisted in moving to where they want to go - even if it isn't the most pleasant - that is better than not going at all. That being said does anyone actually blame Highways England for delays on the motorway? Public transport operators will always get it in the neck when something goes wrong. It's the extent of that and how it's dealt with which are vital.

As always, it is communication & information that must be improved in disruption. Not like yesterday when I think it was clear what was happening. But times like Saturday when services have started to recover, its been very patchy and unclear as to what will be running, where and to what frequency and how the picture will develop across the day.

 

[infobleep]

There are no circumstances under which any TOC should ever say "do not travel" to its customers; it's the equivalent of a shop putting a big sign on its door (or website) saying "do not buy our products".

The message the TOCs should have stated was "you're free to travel regardless of whether your journey is essential or not but you might experience some delays and cancellations".

You forgot the additional word: stranded.

 

[yorkie]

This thread is purely to discuss the disruption that occurred in the last couple of days.

To discuss disruption occurring on Sunday/Monday, please use the thread titled Further weather disruption possible 20/2 - 21/2

If anyone wishes to post any ideas/suggestions, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in the Speculative Discussion section.

 

[infobleep]

So, for example Southwestern Railways, where for example I believe up to 15 trees came down between Basingstoke and Eastleigh, some needed crane equipment to lift some cut sections away, what do you do with 1000s of people who decide to head to London who then can’t get home due to trains being unable to run?

A do not travel deters many leisure people, and makes it easier to manage the numbers that do still decide to travel.

Yet on Friday morning all SWR said was please consider if your journey is necessary. That isn't the same as do not travel.

With a necessary journey you might decide to take the train. With do not travel you might drive.

No idea which is safer if you do have an essential journey to make and also want to get back again after.

 

[duncananderson]

Shambolic communication from GWR today. I'm sure they had their reasons for not running a service between Paddington and Reading for much of the day, but the lack of information to plan ahead was unforgivable.

A message was posted on their website at 10:30am this morning stating that an hourly service was running between London Paddington and Bristol/S Wales/Cheltenham/N Cotswolds. That to me implies 4tph between Paddington and Didcot as one train cannot serve all of those routes. Clearly that wasn't what happened.

I was working in London this evening and at 20:30 when I checked my trains home for around 22:00, that message had not been updated. I looked at National Rail and all the usual trains were showing as running, just with a yellow triangle "there is a bulletin on this service". The bulletin advised me that there might be disruption so to check before I travelled (that's what I was trying to do). You can imagine my surprise then when I arrived at Paddington to find no GWR trains running whatsoever, only the tfl rail stoppers. Another check of the GWR website and the same message from this morning was all that was there.

The problem is, if the website says trains are running, and national rail says trains are running 90 minutes before departure time, people are going to plan to travel, even if you tell them not to. The crowds at Reading this afternoon were significant, and there were some heavy handed tactics employed by train crew to deal with them (the first train I boarded was threatened with cancellation unless all standing passengers alighted - which we duly did and were left behind).

I get that running trains in a storm and its aftermath is difficult and I have full respect for all those working to keep things moving. But getting the information out shouldn't be, in our digital age. If you're not running any trains, for goodness sake put a message on the website to say so.

 

[infobleep]

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#LINK_2 Check this link out, which shows that the Bournemouth lines are running, albeit much reduced. However the Windsor Lines have a tree at Queenstown Road, a tree at Putney, a Tree at Barnes and an engineering possession from Waterloo to Barnes. If you follow the links you'll see problems are still around at e.g. Ash Vale.

It's a shame I didnt have a good reason to travel today as if like to have seen the tree at Queenstown Road.

A friend commented how it was odd to see a Windsor train going through Wimbledon.

 

[Jimini]

It's a shame I didnt have a good reason to travel today as if like to have seen the tree at Queenstown Road.

A friend commented how it was odd to see a Windsor train going through Wimbledon.

Think that was planned anyway due to engineering works between Clapham Junction and Barnes. Windsor trains were scheduled to run to Twick, then reverse and take the scenic route through Strawberry Hill and Wimbledon en route to Waterloo.

 

[alxndr]

Coaches can’t exactly be stopped very quickly granted, quicker than a train besides stopping distance isn’t going to make much of a difference if it falls just as the vehicle is passing. In any case, this was more of a jab at the customer service and willingness to get people to where they are going, rather than the operational screw ups.

Coaches are driven on sight though, so it's less likely that one will hit a tree unless it falls immediately in front of them (yes, I know this can and does happen, my mother was unfortunate enough to have one land on her bonnet a few years ago). Trains are not driven on sight, so there is a greater risk of a train hitting any tree which has already fallen.

 

[infobleep]

Trees were (still are) on the line, and some trains *have* hit them. There is no way to guarantee when the tree will fall, so the driver can't reasonably drive to prevent the collision. A train colliding with a tree is a high risk to life. Therefore, by your criteria, the Do not travel was justified. Discussions about when other messages might be more suitable are probably for another thread.

Giving a warning that says 'we'll try but it might now work out' will result in 90% of people going 'well let's see how it goes'. 'Do Not Travel' is much clearer and more likely to put people off travelling (and I think the full communication did acknowledge there were some who couldn't avoid travelling).

Possibly, it's a difficult balance. I think Do Not Travel was justified in some parts of the country. So the risk there is two layers of messaging across the country, with a potentially fast-changing situation. What would be the tipping point from 'Travel entirely at Own Risk' to 'Do Not Travel'. As I say, it's a difficult one and probably doesn't have a single answer all will agree on.

Yet Friday morning and even Thursday night, SWR was not saying Do not travel, whereas other nearby TOCs were saying this.

TBF the rail industry yesterday was quite clear with its "Do not travel" advice because they couldn't guarantee getting people to their destination. Today the TOCs have been saying expect delays and disruption as a consequence of yesterday - in other words customers should plan accordingly, should expect disruption.

I disagree. On Friday morning SWR disruption notice did not have the words Do not travel. Others did.

As for Saturday, eventually, SWR said Do not travel, as they were struggling. Others didn't say this as they have been able to recover sooner.

Do you know what the crew were working? Where they are based? Where the unit was moving too and from?
Do you know there would be a crew to move a unit back from London!

Very easy to be judgemental without knowing all the facts on the making of the decision!

Was it inconvenient for the customer, totally! Fully appreciate that, and who ever in control had to make that decision will be fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing to the customer.

As for the comment about the previous Avanti service. Can’t see what that has to do with this.

They couldn't board the train. If they had, this issue wouldn't have come up for them.

There's two major difference between a coach and a train. Coaches can be stopped very quickly, and can be steered around obstructions on the road. Trains can do neither of those things.

Coaches are driven on sight though, so it's less likely that one will hit a tree unless it falls immediately in front of them (yes, I know this can and does happen, my mother was unfortunate enough to have one land on her bonnet a few years ago). Trains are not driven on sight, so there is a greater risk of a train hitting any tree which has already fallen.

And yet the pre-planned Rail Replacement Buses between Guildford and Petersfield today was cancelled for some hours today.

When they had the rail works in Guildford at Easter 2020, the pre-planned RRB ran every 30 minutes, even though it was in a lockdown and the train service before the engineering works had been far less than this. They didn't reduce the timetable, which admittedly I found odd. Just as I found it odd today to too the RBBs from running

 

[Mag_seven]

As storms Dudley and Eunice are now behind us we will leave it there.

A new thread has been set up to discuss possible disruption to rail services from a new weather system which can be found here:

Further weather disruption possible 20/2 - 21/2

(A new & separate thread from Storm Eunice, to prevent members getting confused and messages lost) Just an advanced warning that there could be further disruption tomorrow (Sunday) and Monday. Weather models are picking up on a squall line travelling in a NW>SE direction, spanning across the...

www.railforums.co.uk