Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[DarloRich]

London north western up to thier old tricks ( covid hasnt changed anything)

2100 arrival from brum terminated at northampton and all 8 rammed carriages turfed off and told to head for p1 for another train to continie the journey. Why?

Such inconvenience to passengers for what i suspect is operational convenience for LNWR

Total nonsense. I despair.

 

[dk1]

Don't some more modern trains have over-weight sensors?

Only Pendolinos afaik & then only for TASS. Are you thinking of passenger count equipment?

 

[Huntergreed]

Only Pendolinos afaik & then only for TASS. Are you thinking of passenger count equipment?

Would 390's not be able to move at all if the 'overweight' limit was reached, or would TASS simply be disabled and would they be able to proceed, just without tilt?

 

[dk1]

Would 390's not be able to move at all if the 'overweight' limit was reached, or would TASS simply be disabled and would they be able to proceed, just without tilt?

No I’m sure they can move fine. It’s only TASS that goes snowflake.

 

[800001]

London north western up to thier old tricks ( covid hasnt changed anything)

2100 arrival from brum terminated at northampton and all 8 rammed carriages turfed off and told to head for p1 for another train to continie the journey. Why?

Such inconvenience to passengers for what i suspect is operational convenience for LNWR

Total nonsense. I despair.

Train maybe must return to depot for maintenance? Possibly the reason.

 

[A0]

i hadn’t realised you can’t get from Platform 4 to the fast lines. But that explains why the train was shown where it was on real times.

not sure if i would be confident enough to have a curry (or take advantage of the other restaurants) but if they had said it would take 2 hours maybe. Imagine the embarrassment missing the train (had they got things sorted quickly)

thanks for the clarification.

P1 and P4 at Welwyn Gdn City are loops from the slows so not directly linked to the fasts.

I can't remember which way they are numbered now (I think they got changed in the 90s), but the Eastern loop can be accessed from the Up fast by changing to the Up slow north of WGC station - after Hunters Bridge. I don't think anything sent from that platform can get onto the Up fast until after Hatfield as the Up Slow - Up Fast junction at WGC station is before the loop joins the Up slow.

The Western loop can't be accessed from the Down fast at WGC again because the Fast to Slow link is after the loop splits from the Down slow. A down departure from the west loop can get to the Down fast just after Hunters Bridge. An up departure from the west loop goes over the flyover south of the station and joins the up slow.

Hopefully that explains it (and is right from memory !).

 

[DarloRich]

Train maybe must return to depot for maintenance? Possibly the reason.

No worries. Run it back after it has got to euston. Dont turf all the passengers off to do it!

Dont forget therr have been lots of cancellations and many people couldnt get on the preceeding avanti!

 

[800001]

No worries. Run it back after it has got to euston. Dont turf all the passengers off to do it!

Dont forget therr have been lots of cancellations and many people couldnt get on the preceeding avanti!

If there’s no available Crew to move it?

There will be a valid reason, as much as people always look for any excuse to slate, slam operators, no company will impose a set swap like that just for the sake of it, and other options will of been explored!!

 

[davews]

Thanks for the Network Rail Wessex tweets, it certainly puts things into perspective. But I agree that the communication from SWR has been terrible. Instead of vague terms 'all services subject to cancellation' and all lines showing 'major disruption' it would be far more helpful to say something like 'Reading line, heavy damage to equipment at Bracknell, line expected closed until end of day'. But maybe those posting on their website don't know themselves because their internal communication is so bad.

I see they ran an ECS Waterloo-Reading 5C57 earlier this evening so maybe some sign that things will start moving again.

 

[DarloRich]

If there’s no available Crew to move it?

There will be a valid reason, as much as people always look for any excuse to slate, slam operators, no complaint will impose a set swap like that just for the sake of it, and other options will of been explored!!

There is crew to move the replacement identical train.

It is inconventient nonsense that makes the railways look stupid and makes people think twice about using the train at the exact time they are needed as we come out of covid

It wasnt even advertised until the train was pulling into northampton so people are rushing and panicking they will be left behind.

At least they sorted out a train. Usually they just dump you somewhere!

 

[A0]

No worries. Run it back after it has got to euston. Dont turf all the passengers off to do it!

Dont forget therr have been lots of cancellations and many people couldnt get on the preceeding avanti!

But if, for example, it's the toilets which are OOU, people will have travelled for 1+ hour already. By switching units at Northampton the "faulty" unit only has to go a couple of miles back to depot and a functioning unit can cover the diagram until end of service. Changing at Northampton isn't exactly a hardship and if it means having a unit with working facilities, given the journey to London is another hour, seems reasonable.

Also, some passengers will no doubt be alighting at Northampton in any case, so not all will ve transferring.

 

[zwk500]

But it's dishonest. I'd rather be given an honest assessment of the situation and make up my own mind.

It's not dishonest. If you travelled there was a very real risk of being trapped for several hours or needing an emergency evacuation. Both these things pose very real risks to both the passenger and any staff attempting to help them. There was no effective way of predicting which services might get trapped, yet in some areas people could not avoid travelling. So services had to run to prevent greater safety issues e.g. an Airport having the concourse full of people who've just flown back from their half-term holiday (or pre-half-term holiday). By telling people not to travel where possible it reduces the number of people who may be trapped in any single event. I'm not sure if a warning of 'Only attempt to travel if you are able to evacuate yourself from a train onto the ballast without physical assistance' would be compliant with the equality act.

 

[DarloRich]

But if, for example, it's the toilets which are OOU, people will have travelled for 1+ hour already. By switching units at Northampton the "faulty" unit only has to go a couple of miles back to depot and a functioning unit can cover the diagram until end of service. Changing at Northampton isn't exactly a hardship and if it means having a unit with working facilities, given the journey to London is another hour, seems reasonable.

Fine. Say that then. Make it a positive. Also say that before the train is pulling into the now terminating station.

 

[A0]

There is crew to move the replacement identical train.

Kings Heath is only a mile or so. Moving and returning a unit will be less than an hour's work and maybe being covered by somebody nearing the end of their shift, whereas a job to London will be at least an hour - or 2 if it's there and back.

Fine. Say that then. Make it a positive. Also say that before the train is pulling into the now terminating station.

Sometimes too much info causes more confusion. Far better for most customers (and most posters on this board aren't "typical" customers because they want to know the minutiae because they think they could do a better job than the TOCs) to give a simple message of "this unit is being taken out of service, please change to the unit on platform "x". Your "normal" punter doesn't or won't care why the unit is being taken out of service.

 

[bramling]

How is the fastest wind speed ever recorded in England "nowhere near as bad as predicted"? Where is the wild exaggeration? Sheffield was well north of the strongest winds so of course it wasn't very bad there.

I believe the fastest ever wind speed is slightly qualified by the fact that the 1987 storm damaged recording apparatus. It’s a fair suspicion that 87 was rather worse, and this is evidenced by the way yesterday - bad as it was - didn’t leave the complete trail of destruction 87 did. Had speeds been able to be measured in 87 they would almost certainly have been a fair bit higher.

That’s not to do yesterday down though, it was a severe storm.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not dishonest. If you travelled there was a very real risk of being trapped for several hours or needing an emergency evacuation. Both these things pose very real risks to both the passenger and any staff attempting to help them. There was no effective way of predicting which services might get trapped, yet in some areas people could not avoid travelling. So services had to run to prevent greater safety issues e.g. an Airport having the concourse full of people who've just flown back from their half-term holiday (or pre-half-term holiday). By telling people not to travel where possible it reduces the number of people who may be trapped in any single event. I'm not sure if a warning of 'Only attempt to travel if you are able to evacuate yourself from a train onto the ballast without physical assistance' would be compliant with the equality act.

But is that acceptable for a yellow warning (which are two a penny up here these days). I've not suggested the scenario that you've quoted. I suggested a message along the lines of "we can't guarantee to get you to your destination so you travel at your own risk of having to make alternative arrangements".

 

[Magdalia]

P1 and P4 at Welwyn Gdn City are loops from the slows so not directly linked to the fasts.

I can't remember which way they are numbered now (I think they got changed in the 90s), but the Eastern loop can be accessed from the Up fast by changing to the Up slow north of WGC station - after Hunters Bridge. I don't think anything sent from that platform can get onto the Up fast until after Hatfield as the Up Slow - Up Fast junction at WGC station is before the loop joins the Up slow.

The Western loop can't be accessed from the Down fast at WGC again because the Fast to Slow link is after the loop splits from the Down slow. A down departure from the west loop can get to the Down fast just after Hunters Bridge. An up departure from the west loop goes over the flyover south of the station and joins the up slow.

Hopefully that explains it (and is right from memory !).

The WGC platform renumbering was a Chris Green thing at or just after the launch of NSE. Hitchin was also changed, but not St Neots.

The key thing with WGC is that the platforms are short, only just long enough for standard 8 car trains, and the down side platforms are also bidirectional. Longer trains mess with the track circuits!

In my regular travelling days all of the WGC fast/slow xovers were rare in passenger traffic. Northwards it is not far to Digswell and southwards on the up it is not far to Marshmoor. Down fast to down slow was usually done at Potters Bar.

 

[DarloRich]

Kings Heath is only a mile or so. Moving and returning a unit will be less than an hour's work and maybe being covered by somebody nearing the end of their shift, whereas a job to London will be at least an hour - or 2 if it's there and back.



Sometimes too much info causes more confusion. Far better for most customers (and most posters on this board aren't "typical" customers because they want to know the minutiae because they think they could do a better job than the TOCs) to give a simple message of "this unit is being taken out of service, please change to the unit on platform "x". Your "normal" punter doesn't or won't care why the unit is being taken out of service.

And to really grit the $hit the messing about at northmapton means i have missed the last bus to bedford.

I think it was a silly decison but i am sure people here will find excuses.

I am fairly grumpy this evening becuase i left gloucester at 1730 and i am still not home.

I couldnt get on my booked train and then got turfed off the train i managed to get on.

I am not in the mood for excuses amd if i am not imagine how pi$$ed of the real people where!

We need to avoid this sort of thing of we wont survive

 

[800001]

There is crew to move the replacement identical train.

It is inconventient nonsense that makes the railways look stupid and makes people think twice about using the train at the exact time they are needed as we come out of covid

It wasnt even advertised until the train was pulling into northampton so people are rushing and panicking they will be left behind.

At least they sorted out a train. Usually they just dump you somewhere!

Do you know what the crew were working? Where they are based? Where the unit was moving too and from?
Do you know there would be a crew to move a unit back from London!

Very easy to be judgemental without knowing all the facts on the making of the decision!

Was it inconvenient for the customer, totally! Fully appreciate that, and who ever in control had to make that decision will be fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing to the customer.

As for the comment about the previous Avanti service. Can’t see what that has to do with this.

 

[zwk500]

But is that acceptable for a yellow warning (which are two a penny up here these days). I've not suggested the scenario that you've quoted. I suggested a message along the lines of "we can't guarantee to get you to your destination so you travel at your own risk of having to make alternative arrangements".

The issue is the railway can't guarantee of getting you to somewhere where you could make alternative arrangements. So it can't say 'travel is not advised as you may have to get a bus/taxi' because you may be trapped on a train for hours in a cutting/tunnel. I can understand the frustration at a yellow warning, where Do Not Travel may seem over the top, but attempting to manage two very different levels of warning would have led to far greater confusion, delays and problems as people end up aiming for trains that didn't exist. Also a train that starts it journey at, say, Leeds may well be running into and out of the Red Warning nearer, say, London. Storms are notoriously difficult to predict and the railway is inherently difficult to replan if the storm moved in a different direction.

 

[philthetube]

I should imagine a fair few passengers are paying an awful lot of money to stand squashed in like a sardine!
Kind of reminds me of the Indian trains, the only difference being passengers aren't on the roof!

At least the doors were shut

 

[800001]

And to really grit the $hit the messing about at northmapton means i have missed the last bus to bedford.

I think it was a silly decison but i am sure people here will find excuses.

I am fairly grumpy this evening becuase i left gloucester at 1730 and i am still not home.

I couldnt get on my booked train and then got turfed off the train i managed to get on.

I am not in the mood for excuses amd if i am not imagine how pi$$ed of the real people where!

We need to avoid this sort of thing of we wont survive

I think even if they had laid out in plain black and white face to face with you, you wouldn’t be happy with what they said.

 

[yorksrob]

The issue is the railway can't guarantee of getting you to somewhere where you could make alternative arrangements. So it can't say 'travel is not advised as you may have to get a bus/taxi' because you may be trapped on a train for hours in a cutting/tunnel. I can understand the frustration at a yellow warning, where Do Not Travel may seem over the top, but attempting to manage two very different levels of warning would have led to far greater confusion, delays and problems as people end up aiming for trains that didn't exist. Also a train that starts it journey at, say, Leeds may well be running into and out of the Red Warning nearer, say, London. Storms are notoriously difficult to predict and the railway is inherently difficult to replan if the storm moved in a different direction.

And that's why myself (and lots of other passengers) ended up making our own assessments of the situation.

It was clear, even to me that a train heading to kings cross was heading into the red warning zone. That is something the majority of the public can understand.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I think even if they had laid out in plain black and white face to face with you, you wouldn’t be happy with what they said.

I understand the train crewing issues and various other problems. It doesn't mean someone can's be cross when a train gets cancelled even if there are legitimate reasons why the train was cancelled.

This attitude has really got to stop that passengers should be grateful that a service was provided full stop when a train is cancelled short. People rightlyfully get annoyed.

 

[zwk500]

And that's why myself (and lots of other passengers) ended up making our own assessments of the situation.

Great, and if it was all fine then that's wonderful.

 

[philthetube]

I think that all services should be suspended for the duration of a red, this should be a decision made by the government not the railway. the forecasters should endeavour to put out warnings in time to allow key workers to travel and public funds should be made available for key workers to be accommodated the day before if needed,

 

[yorksrob]

Great, and if it was all fine then that's wonderful.

And if it wasn't, i'd been prepared to overnight (given it was a yellow warning afterall).

I think that all services should be suspended for the duration of a red, this should be a decision made by the government not the railway. the forecasters should endeavour to put out warnings in time to allow key workers to travel and public funds should be made available for key workers to be accommodated the day before if needed,

It's this in the red warning area or everywhere else ?

 

[zwk500]

I think that all services should be suspended for the duration of a red, this should be a decision made by the government not the railway. the forecasters should endeavour to put out warnings in time to allow key workers to travel and public funds should be made available for key workers to be accommodated the day before if needed,

That would not be practical in a vast majority of cases. Key workers may not be able to travel to the area in advance, there may not be appropriate accommodation available and, biggest of all, there is not a cat in hell's chance that the Treasury would fund the sheer number of hotel rooms required.

And if it wasn't, i'd been prepared to overnight (given it was a yellow warning afterall).

As long as you were prepared to accept that risk entirely on your own back.

 

[D1537]

I see Avanti have cancelled the 2025 and 2103 out of Euston to the West Midlands tonight. The last scheduled departure (2142) is going to be cosy…

The last southbound Avanti from Brum, 1B44 2109 ex-Wolves, still hasn't started its journey (just showing "Delayed").

 

[yorksrob]

As long as you were prepared to accept that risk entirely on your own back.

I was, given the "do not travel" order.

I just think a "travel at own risk" would have been more suitable for the circumstances.