Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[zwk500]

The last southbound Avanti from Brum, 1B44 2109 ex-Wolves, still hasn't started its journey (just showing "Delayed").

Has just left, only the 52 minutes down!

 

[philthetube]

And if it wasn't, i'd been prepared to overnight (given it was a yellow warning afterall).



It's this in the red warning area or everywhere else ?

In the area

That would not be practical in a vast majority of cases. Key workers may not be able to travel to the area in advance, there may not be appropriate accommodation available and, biggest of all, there is not a cat in hell's chance that the Treasury would fund the sheer number of hotel rooms required.

As long as you were prepared to accept that risk entirely on your own back.

The description of key workers should not be as wide as in other circumstances, shop workers, even many hospital workers can be spared for a shift, key workers in the case should be people who prevent people from dying, for otheres if their company want them in they should pay.

 

[yorksrob]

In the area

The description of key workers should not be as wide as in other circumstances, shop workers, even many hospital workers can be spared for a shift, key workers in the case should be people who prevent people from dying, for otheres if their company want them in they should pay.

Fair point then.

 

[zwk500]

I was, given the "do not travel" order.

I just think a "travel at own risk" would have been more suitable for the circumstances.

Possibly, it's a difficult balance. I think Do Not Travel was justified in some parts of the country. So the risk there is two layers of messaging across the country, with a potentially fast-changing situation. What would be the tipping point from 'Travel entirely at Own Risk' to 'Do Not Travel'. As I say, it's a difficult one and probably doesn't have a single answer all will agree on.

 

[Robertj21a]

Never heard of that. As long as the doors shut & interlock is given its brakes released & off we go.

Thanks.
Quite amazing really when you consider all the other safety issues (on the railways and elsewhere). It's surprising if the health and safety of passengers is not fully documented.

 

[A0]

This attitude has really got to stop that passengers should be grateful that a service was provided full stop when a train is cancelled short. People rightlyfully get annoyed.

In "normal" conditions I'd agree with you. But the rail network took quite a hit yesterday and that's had a huge knock on today.

TBF the rail industry yesterday was quite clear with its "Do not travel" advice because they couldn't guarantee getting people to their destination. Today the TOCs have been saying expect delays and disruption as a consequence of yesterday - in other words customers should plan accordingly, should expect disruption.

In Darlo Rich's case the train was 5 late into Northampton and 12 late leaving due to the unit change. But for *most* passengers getting to, London for example, 10 late whilst inconvenient, is with a backdrop of TOCs warning of delays and cancellations - most people eould probably regard that as OK in the circumstances.

 

[zwk500]

The description of key workers should not be as wide as in other circumstances, shop workers, even many hospital workers can be spared for a shift, key workers in the case should be people who prevent people from dying, for otheres if their company want them in they should pay.

Ancillary staff are very important in preventing deaths in hospitals (to take but one example). Given the warning was upgraded pretty late in the day, were all these Paramedics and Firefighters expected to drop everything and report to the designated travelodge in 3 hours or something?

 

[yorksrob]

Possibly, it's a difficult balance. I think Do Not Travel was justified in some parts of the country. So the risk there is two layers of messaging across the country, with a potentially fast-changing situation. What would be the tipping point from 'Travel entirely at Own Risk' to 'Do Not Travel'. As I say, it's a difficult one and probably doesn't have a single answer all will agree on.

We agree in that case.

It has to be said though, that when we have red weather warnings up north, the South of England isn't generally expected to stay at home !

 

[zwk500]

We agree in that case.

It has to be said though, that when we have red weather warnings up north, the South of England isn't generally expected to stay at home !

I can't comment on that one!

 

[DarloRich]

Do you know what the crew were working? Where they are based? Where the unit was moving too and from?
Do you know there would be a crew to move a unit back from London!

Very easy to be judgemental without knowing all the facts on the making of the decision!

Was it inconvenient for the customer, totally! Fully appreciate that, and who ever in control had to make that decision will be fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing to the customer.

As for the comment about the previous Avanti service. Can’t see what that has to do with this.

There was clearly crew to run the replacement train that ran in empty from the south.

It is very easy to be "fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing the passenger" when it is not you being inconvenienced. When you are on the receiving end of that decision it feels like operational convenience trumps the passenger and that is very frustrating. I am grateful they organised another train and didn't leave us stood at Northampton (as they have before) but I fail to see why a train that had run well from Brum couldn't finish its journey to London. I am sure there is an excuse/reason but I fail to see it right now. I am sure this board will find many mind.

The Avanti services seem to be up the spout, people couldn't physically board the one that was running ( see above) and most others were cancelled. This meant that the LNWR was therefore equally rammed. Why is that a problem? well mainly because we are supposed to offer a service to the passenger but they seem like an after thought frankly!

I think even if they had laid out in plain black and white face to face with you, you wouldn’t be happy with what they said.

No: I wouldn't be this evening - but hey, I am the just the poor sod walking home.

PS I know I am grumpy tonight but my overriding thought is that I wish I had driven. That's what I think and I am someone who wants to use the train. What is the average punter going to think? Might they, conceivably, not bother next time? If they do that we are in big trouble.

BTW A friend of mine offered me a lift today as he was off to Bristol to watch Boro play, I said no as I was going to meet my mates and have a few beers. He was home by 20:00. I am just walking in the house gone 22:00.

 

[30907]

What's wrong with SWR? Eastleigh was locked with all trains to Southampton shown as cancelled in JourneyCheck, forcing me to walk back to the Airport, but I saw a passenger train passed through the station non stop just now.

A train has run, the first all day on that line and so far the only one. 1735 Waterloo, delayed 45 en route and another 45 on the return.

 

[philthetube]

Ancillary staff are very important in preventing deaths in hospitals (to take but one example). Given the warning was upgraded pretty late in the day, were all these Paramedics and Firefighters expected to drop everything and report to the designated travelodge in 3 hours or something?

If they travel to work before the red then fine, if they plan on travelling during the red, as you can see, many would not arrive at work, so maybe accommodating them is a good idea, and maybe some would need to be accommodated after work.

 

[800001]

There was clearly crew to run the replacement train that ran in empty from the south.

It is very easy to be "fully aware of the inconvenience they are causing the passenger" when it is not you being inconvenienced. When you are on the receiving end of that decision it feels like operational convenience trumps the passenger and that is very frustrating. I am grateful they organised another train and didn't leave us stood at Northampton (as they have before) but I fail to see why a train that had run well from Brum couldn't finish its journey to London. I am sure there is an excuse/reason but I fail to see it right now. I am sure this board will find many mind.

The Avanti services seem to be up the spout, people couldn't physically board the one that was running ( see above) and most others were cancelled. This meant that the LNWR was therefore equally rammed. Why is that a problem? well mainly because we are supposed to offer a service to the passenger but they seem like an after thought frankly!

No: I wouldn't be this evening - but hey, I am the just the poor sod walking home.

PS I know I am grumpy tonight but my overriding thought is that I wish I had driven. That's what I think and I am someone who wants to use the train. What is the average punter going to think? Might they, conceivably, not bother next time? If they do that we are in big trouble.

BTW A friend of mine offered me a lift today as he was off to Bristol to watch Boro play, I said no as I was going to meet my mates and have a few beers. He was home by 20:00. I am just walking in the house gone 22:00.

I’m sorry if I have come across a bit ‘arsey’.
And sorry that you are walking home.
Personally, I would of been asking/demanding a taxi home, if it is Lnwr that has caused you to miss the bus.
But, if anything like Scotrail when they cancelled 3 trains in a row for me, they just Abandoned me and said make your own way not our problem .

 

[DarloRich]

I’m sorry if I have come across a bit ‘arsey’.
And sorry that you are walking home.
Personally, I would of been asking/demanding a taxi home, if it is Lnwr that has caused you to miss the bus.
But, if anything like Scotrail when they cancelled 3 trains in a row for me, they just Abandoned me and said make your own way not our problem .

no worries - I may also be a bit arsey this evening ( I only got one beer in pre match due to inbound delays!)

There was no one around expect the security guard so it is easier just to walk and then send an email in the morning!

 

[800001]

no worries - I may also be a bit arsey this evening ( I only got one beer in due to inbound delays!)

There was no one around expect the security guard so it is easier just to walk and then send an email in the morning!

Have a well deserved beer when you get through the front door.

 

[zwk500]

If they travel to work before the red then fine, if they plan on travelling during the red, as you can see, many would not arrive at work, so maybe accommodating them is a good idea, and maybe some would need to be accommodated after work.

In order for you plan to work the following needs to happen:
1. The warning issued
2. The appropriate staff identified and warned to get ready
3. Suitably located hotel rooms identified and booked.
4. Staff identified in (2) allocated to rooms identified in (3).
5. Staff informed of the result of step 4 and told to make their way to the hotel before the transport shuts down.

In between, the argument about who pays and how will be going on. Given the warning was given late on Thursday Night, how quickly do you think you could get all the Doctors, Nurses, Paramedics, Police Officers and Firefighters organised for 24hours coverage (3 shifts).

 

[800001]

Looks like SWR and NWR now have the line open between Basingstoke and Eastleigh, as a few trains have left Waterloo and reached Southampton.

 

[DarloRich]

While I am grumpy this evening I think it is important to register the one bit of good service today: Step forward XC! ( yes, that XC!)

Trains running Bristol > Derby ( Newcastle?). Very helpful guards on both services I used coming through the train helping with connections and putting people on the right track. Sorted out my tickets so I could go to/from Bristol Parkway if I needed to and gave options for later i the day if required. Very good.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was, given the "do not travel" order.

I just think a "travel at own risk" would have been more suitable for the circumstances.

The problem with that is 99% of the general public are absolutely useless at estimating risk. I travelled a fairly short distance today, at my own risk, knowing I could stay with my parents if I got stuck along the way. On the way back to Bristol (early evening) I saw numerous people, already a bit drunk, wearing clothing that was barely enough for indoors at the moment let alone several hours potentially trapped on a train with no heating. Are you really telling me those people actually had thought about the risk?

 

[dk1]

Thanks.
Quite amazing really when you consider all the other safety issues (on the railways and elsewhere). It's surprising if the health and safety of passengers is not fully documented.

You’re most welcome. Loadings are no real consideration as a driver.

While I am grumpy this evening I think it is important to register the one bit of good service today: Step forward XC! ( yes, that XC!)

Trains running Bristol > Derby ( Newcastle?). Very helpful guards on both services I used coming through the train helping with connections and putting people on the right track. Sorted out my tickets so I could go to/from Bristol Parkway if I needed to and gave options for later i the day if required. Very good.

Never known or thought you as grumpy. You always make very logical, sensible & darn right appropriate points in my opinion even if they are a little blunt sometimes.

 

[Blindtraveler]

From a customer service point of view, xcr probably one of my favourite operators that I use on a regular basis

 

[philthetube]

In order for you plan to work the following needs to happen:
1. The warning issued
2. The appropriate staff identified and warned to get ready
3. Suitably located hotel rooms identified and booked.
4. Staff identified in (2) allocated to rooms identified in (3).
5. Staff informed of the result of step 4 and told to make their way to the hotel before the transport shuts down.

In between, the argument about who pays and how will be going on. Given the warning was given late on Thursday Night, how quickly do you think you could get all the Doctors, Nurses, Paramedics, Police Officers and Firefighters organised for 24hours coverage (3 shifts).

The warning needs to be issued, many on the forum are in agreement with this for differing reasons. 2 can be sorted out months in advance, 3 may be a problem, though probably a payment to staff to sort their own digs would solve a lot of this, and many key jobs do have some accommodation available, fire fighters for example. 4 and 5 should not cause issues as 2 will tell them to be prepared.

Payment could be sorted months ago

 

[trebor79]

Who determines whether the sheer volume of passengers on board is a serious risk to life?
Presumably the driver (or guard if one present) ?

Never heard of that. As long as the doors shut & interlock is given its brakes released & off we go.

Many years ago I was on a packed XC Voyager from Bristol to Durham. At Birmingham it got ridiculously wedged. Guard made an announcement that the train was "dangerously overcrowded and I'm not going to allow us to depart until this is no longer the case. Some of you will need to get off".
We all stood and looked at each other.
A few minutes later the same announcement, guard emphatically saying the train was "going nowhere" until some people got off.
Nobody got off. About a minute later the doors shut and we were on our way.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with that is 99% of the general public are absolutely useless at estimating risk. I travelled a fairly short distance today, at my own risk, knowing I could stay with my parents if I got stuck along the way. On the way back to Bristol (early evening) I saw numerous people, already a bit drunk, wearing clothing that was barely enough for indoors at the moment let alone several hours potentially trapped on a train with no heating. Are you really telling me those people actually had thought about the risk?

That's a fair point, but is it the railways job to make that call. Surely lots of those scantily clad people will be local, so local authorities ought to take responsibility.

 

[trebor79]

That's a fair point, but is it the railways job to make that call. Surely lots of those scantily clad people will be local, so local authorities ought to take responsibility.

Really? I've seen some people on Twitter saying the red weather warning should have been enforced with a lockdown. I think the pandemic response has gone to their heads.
Give people the information, let them make their own choices. Some people need to try to travel no matter what. Some people are just plain dumb. That's life.

 

[bramling]

London north western up to thier old tricks ( covid hasnt changed anything)

2100 arrival from brum terminated at northampton and all 8 rammed carriages turfed off and told to head for p1 for another train to continie the journey. Why?

Such inconvenience to passengers for what i suspect is operational convenience for LNWR

Total nonsense. I despair.

Much as it may be a nuisance, these things are always done for some reason or other.

If the train had a defect with a piece of equipment in the north end cab then yes it would be able to continue to Euston, but would then result in a potential cancellation for the next trip.

Another reason, especially in the evening, is getting stock to the required depot (though I’m not sure this is the case here given that the replacement train ultimately ended up back at Northampton). The difficulty is if that if these things aren’t done, it’s simply storing up a problem for later on, which might be that maintenance can’t get done and then a depot can’t offer sufficient trains for service, again resulting in a cancellation.

Naturally some controllers are more adept at finding less intrusive ways of doing things than others…

 

[dan5324]

Trains telling passengers to stay at home until further notice. National express pulling out all the stops to get their customers where they need to be. Sold out all day. One is a private company with no taxpayer assistance. Another is, with full funding regardless if services run or not. Simple really.

The only reason why national express havent died out, is because our railways are so abysmal. In many many ways.

 

[yorksrob]

Really? I've seen some people on Twitter saying the red weather warning should have been enforced with a lockdown. I think the pandemic response has gone to their heads.
Give people the information, let them make their own choices. Some people need to try to travel no matter what. Some people are just plain dumb. That's life.

I agree. We're on the same page.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains telling passengers to stay at home until further notice. National express pulling out all the stops to get their customers where they need to be. Sold out all day. One is a private company with no taxpayer assistance. Another is, with full funding regardless if services run or not. Simple really.

There's two major difference between a coach and a train. Coaches can be stopped very quickly, and can be steered around obstructions on the road. Trains can do neither of those things.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There's two major difference between a coach and a train. Coaches can be stopped very quickly, and can be steered around obstructions on the road. Trains can do neither of those things.

Correct which is why you remove the hazards ie the trees from the operational infrastructure. Looking at the NR Wsx twitter link from above many of those trees were just an accident waiting to happen and should have been removed already not waited for the wind to do it in an uncontrolled way causing damage to the infrastructure as well as blocking it.

Also the industry needs to examine itself over this and there needs to be common policy over when to suspend trains which surely ought to be mandatory for a RED warning in future as well as how it communicates knock on disruption from these events. This was an extremely rare one but we get plenty of yellow and amber warnings every year so it wouldn't be wasted work.