Cunning plan required to get to Pinhal Novo, Lisbon from London

[Ian99]

I'm planning on leaving London on Easter Monday or the day after - Tuesday 19 April - and need to be in Pinhal Novo, south of Lisbon by Friday 22 April.

In the past I would have used the sleeper between Irun and Lisbon but that is alas no longer running.

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a possible interesting route that is reasonably priced - I'm over 60 so might qualify for some discounted travel.

I don't mind long interchanges and am even happy with some not-too-long coach sections. Also happy to take boats rather than necessarily the Eurostar.

What I'm not keen on however is travelling when it's dark (unless it's in a sleeper train or asleep on a boat).

I'd welcome any thoughts!

 

[Peterthegreat]

I'm planning on leaving London on Easter Monday or the day after - Tuesday 19 April - and need to be in Pinhal Novo, south of Lisbon by Friday 22 April.

In the past I would have used the sleeper between Irun and Lisbon but that is alas no longer running.

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a possible interesting route that is reasonably priced - I'm over 60 so might qualify for some discounted travel.

I don't mind long interchanges and am even happy with some not-too-long coach sections. Also happy to take boats rather than necessarily the Eurostar.

What I'm not keen on however is travelling when it's dark (unless it's in a sleeper train or asleep on a boat).

I'd welcome any thoughts!

There are currently only 2 rail routes open between Spain and Portugal although there are quite a few bus routes. The two routes are, in the north, Vigo to Porto and, in the middle, Badajoz to Entroncamento. You will then need to plan either side accordingly. I suspect you may be better purchasing an Interrrail ticket. A 7 day (in a month) costs around £270. If you are only going one way a four day (c £200) should be sufficient. These tickets would also allow you to travel to/from your origin in the UK and give a substantial discount on Eurostar.

 

[Giugiaro]

Honestly trying to go to Portugal from Central Europe by rail should be avoided, as the current connections between Portugal and Spain are less than passable.

Depending on Renfe's mood, there might be a train from Madrid to Badajoz that'll arrive in time to change to the Portuguese railcar awaiting for Entroncamento.
ATM for April 22 the REG.EXP. 17014 should be able to get you from Madrid - Atocha Cernacías to Badajoz with almost 3 full hours to lunch at the Mesón Don Quijote/Mesón San Fernando/La Mafia se sienta a la mesa.
The CP railcar departs from Badajoz at 16:26 Spanish time. To Pinhal Novo expect 3 train changes, one at Entroncamento, one at Lisboa - Oriente, and another time somewhere between Roma - Areeiro and Lisboa - Sete Rios.

Trying to go through Vigo and Porto will always force you to stay the night at either Porto or Vigo. There is no way to go from Madrid to Lisbon in the same day through Galicia.

 

[stuu]

How about: Morning train to Plymouth, ferry to Santander overnight, arrives midday-ish. Afternoon train to Madrid. Stay the night. Train to Seville, afternoon coach to Faro. Stay. Direct train to Pinhal Novo

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There are coaches between Madrid and Lisbon run by Alsa (other companies are available), but taking around 8 hours (allowing for the time difference). There are a couple of short refreshment stops en-route, the fares are very reasonable, very new coaches are used and it is motorway most of the way in Portugal, but it is not for the faint-hearted. They do call at Badajoz so can you take the train there and continue by coach to break it up a bit, but be aware that the rail and coach stations in Badajoz are a couple of miles apart. Neither are near the centre of the city, of course, as I discovered to my cost, so it is a taxi job.

One possibility is to go directly to Pinhal Novo from the south via Faro. The itinerary would be London - Paris (Eurostar), Paris - Barcelona(TGV), Barcelona - Seville (AVE - direct service), Seville to Faro (Coach). Overnight stays would be required in Barcelona and Seville. London to Barcelona in a day, however, doesn't work at the moment - maybe the timetable will be restored in time for April? The Paris to Port Bou sleeper isn't running daily, either, which would have been an alternative.

 

[Ian99]

Thank you all for your input.

I like the "via Faro" option but I'll be heading that way after a stay near Pinhal Novo.

I'm happy to stay in Vigo or Porto but as far as I can see trains arriving in Vigo from within Spain only arrive in the dark and - especially as the scenery is so good leading there - I'd only want to do that in the light. Have I got that right?

I'd be happy to stay in Badajoz but it doesn't look like there are any morning trains from there towards Lisbon. I suppose I might be able to stay in Entroncamento.

The ferry option is a nice one although I'd look for a place outside of Madrid to stay I think.

 

[Giugiaro]

I'm happy to stay in Vigo or Porto but as far as I can see trains arriving in Vigo from within Spain only arrive in the dark and - especially as the scenery is so good leading there - I'd only want to do that in the light. Have I got that right?

Vigo has two different stations: Vigo - Guixar, and Vigo - Urzáiz.

The Celta by CP arrives and departs from Guixar twice a day, but Renfe trains depart from both stations, being Urzáiz the HSR station.
For instance, the ALVIA 04115 would take you from Madrid - Charmatín to Vigo - Urzáiz departing 11:20 and arriving by 15:38.
Another, later, option would be the ALVIA 04145 + MD 09183, from Madrid - Charmatín Vigo - Urzaíz, changing in Santiago de Compostela, departing at 14:30, and arriving by 19:20.
This last one has you spend an hour in Santiago de Compostela. You could spend it by visiting the local rail club.

 

[30907]

There is a Portsmouth-Santander Portsmouth-on Easter Monday evening, arriving Wednesday morning, which should allow you to get to Vigo the same day (if RENFE are running any trains - if not, try ALSA buses).
Without the ferry, you should make Vigo with one overnight stop - the obvious route being via Irun, but possibly you will have to go via Barcelona-Madrid.

(Back from the Algarve I would definitely go via Seville.)

Sorry, just realised you have an extra day to do the trip. You could explore part of the narrow-gauge line along the northern coast, and get to Vigo in daylight with an extra stop somewhere.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'd be interested in your experience of this trip, whichever options you use.

I'd been planning to do a London-Lisbon journey (sometime post-pandemic) in 24 hours - morning Eurostar to Paris, TGV to Hendaye/Irun, sleeper to Lisbon. Efficient, civilised, and just 2 changes.

However, with the sleeper to Lisbon not returning, it sounds like what might have been possible in 24 hours can now barely be done easily and reliably by rail in 48! If it's that much faff, then I might never make my planned Lisbon trip at all.

 

[dutchflyer]

Just 2 minor remarks on the side;
1.ALSA (Í́ve used them last week also whilst in Andalucia/Spain) is in fact a full daughter of your Nat.Expr. Their ´coach´network seemed to me to be severely pruned due to covid restrictions. Online booking does not give any discount, but often involved rather a ´service feé of 2,80€
2,check the forum of EU/InterRail: community.eurail.com, notably this Par-Barca TGV is very often mentioned as being a real bottleneck for those having a railpass: the supplemt to pay is quite high (more as I paid for a low-cost flight AMs-Malaga), hard to get and often ´sold out´ as it is also quota-restricted. You seem to be tied into these exact dates-otherwise the overnight SNCF Paris-Port Bou would be the best choice.
Also: it seems many Spanish have their Easter hols the week after easter and then these long-distance AVE bypassing Madrid from Barca also seem to be often full.
If you decide to use RENFE and book directly-you could use the option of ´tarjeta dorada´=senior discount card (giving 25-40% off),the card cost 6€ for 1 year and only has to be presented on the first trip-so buy when locally and allow time for that. No foto etc needed-just show passport. The nr of that will be printed on the tiny card, plus your name.

 

[Giugiaro]

However, with the sleeper to Lisbon not returning, it sounds like what might have been possible in 24 hours can now barely be done easily and reliably by rail in 48! If it's that much faff, then I might never make my planned Lisbon trip at all.

Not going to happen anytime soon, but by... eh... 2025 we might have worked on the 20 of the 51 cars CP bought from Renfe that are meant for the Sud.

I've been insisting with the higher-ups to plan towards installing SUW 2000 axles on these coaches, just so we can, AT LEAST, reach Bordeaux.

 

[30907]

Having just read the article in the March TRE, I've now had a look at the RENFE site: you can get to Vigo at 20.12 via Madrid, starting from San Sebastian, Barcelona or (09.19, tight for the ferry) Santander. That's well before sunset!
There's an earlier train from Barcelona which would allow you to catch the evening Vigo-Porto.
Unfortunately, without going via Madrid you are stuck with the 23.12 arrival.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Not going to happen anytime soon, but by... eh... 2025 we might have worked on the 20 of the 51 cars CP bought from Renfe that are meant for the Sud.

I've been insisting with the higher-ups to plan towards installing SUW 2000 axles on these coaches, just so we can, AT LEAST, reach Bordeaux.

Wow - a Lisbon-Bordeaux sleeper would be absolutely wonderful. (I don't mind sleeping my way through Spain!) If that existed, Portugal would benefit from at least my bit of holiday spending money now and again.

When you say you're insisting, does that mean you're involved with Portuguese Railways? Or was that a joke?

Is the renewal of the Lisbon-France direct link seriously likely? Where can I keep up with news of the plans [apart from here...]? Is there anything I can do to encourage it to happen?!

Obrigado.

 

[Giugiaro]

When you say you're insisting, does that mean you're involved with Portuguese Railways? Or was that a joke?

I work as a graphic and industrial designer at the Guifões workshop, where the 51 ex-Renfe coaches will be refurbished.
Right now we're working on the 36 Arco coaches. We're only expected to start working on the remaining cars (including the sleepers) at the end of 2023/early 2024.
The three RENFE A8lv-10500, two A9t-9100 and two B11t-9200 are already at our premises. The remaining cars are in Porto-Contumil.

Is the renewal of the Lisbon-France direct link seriously likely? Where can I keep up with news of the plans [apart from here...]? Is there anything I can do to encourage it to happen?!

The former president of CP has stated that the goal is to reinstate the Sud-Express, but has warned that unless the service is included in the public service contract, it won't be launched at all.

More probably the cars may be used on a night train connecting directly A Coruña to Faro, essentially a revival and extension of the "Blue Train" (Comboio Azul)

 

[peteb]

A pleasant journey would be Eurostar to Paris Monday, Paris to Béziers via Clermont Ferrand Tuesday, Béziers to Madrid via Perpignan and Barcelona Wednesday, Madrid to Lisboa via Badajoz Thursday. The problem you have travelling from Madrid to Pinhal Novo is that the last train from Lisboa runs at 1902 and the connection from Madrid/Badajoz/Entrencamento misses that by an hour, thus entailing a night in Lisboa or making alternative arrangements to get to Pinhal Novo.

But equally you could do London to Hendaye very easily in one day, then Irun to Madrid on day 2, Madrid to Lisboa day 3. No trains Hendaye to Irun at present so a short taxi ride over the border needed.

 

[Giugiaro]

The problem you have travelling from Madrid to Pinhal Novo is that the last train from Lisboa runs at 1902 and the connection from Madrid/Badajoz/Entrencamento misses that by an hour, thus entailing a night in Lisboa or making alternative arrangements to get to Pinhal Novo.

No! If you add Fertagus to the mix, you can do it all by train!
Check this suggestion for instance.

There's also an option by boat to the south bank of the Tagus.

 

[peteb]

No! If you add Fertagus to the mix, you can do it all by train!
Check this suggestion for instance.

There's also an option by boat to the south bank of the Tagus.

Excellent!

 

[30907]

A pleasant journey would be Eurostar to Paris Monday, Paris to Béziers via Clermont Ferrand Tuesday, Béziers to Madrid via Perpignan and Barcelona Wednesday, Madrid to Lisboa via Badajoz Thursday.

Or a day later to suit the OP

No trains Hendaye to Irun at present so a short taxi ride over the border needed.

The narrow-guage is running AFAIK, not sure Irun to S Seb on the broad gauge is.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Or a day later to suit the OP

The narrow-guage is running AFAIK, not sure Irun to S Seb on the broad gauge is.

Broad gauge commuter trains are still running.

 

[30907]

Broad gauge commuter trains are still running.

Thanks

 

[Ian99]

Vigo has two different stations: Vigo - Guixar, and Vigo - Urzáiz.

The Celta by CP arrives and departs from Guixar twice a day, but Renfe trains depart from both stations, being Urzáiz the HSR station.
For instance, the ALVIA 04115 would take you from Madrid - Charmatín to Vigo - Urzáiz departing 11:20 and arriving by 15:38.
Another, later, option would be the ALVIA 04145 + MD 09183, from Madrid - Charmatín Vigo - Urzaíz, changing in Santiago de Compostela, departing at 14:30, and arriving by 19:20.
This last one has you spend an hour in Santiago de Compostela. You could spend it by visiting the local rail club.

That's useful, thanks, but I can only find ALVIA 04115 and ALVIA 04145 on the renfe site - ie not on any sites where I can find out the intermediate stops. I was thinking that maybe - if I'm coming from Santander or San Sebsatian - I could get on those trains at Palencia or Leon?

 

[30907]

That's useful, thanks, but I can only find ALVIA 04115 and ALVIA 04145 on the renfe site - ie not on any sites where I can find out the intermediate stops. I was thinking that maybe - if I'm coming from Santander or San Sebsatian - I could get on those trains at Palencia or Leon?

No, they don't go that way. Ourense is effectively the first stop on the old network, and there seems to be only 1tpd from Leon currently.

 

[Giugiaro]

I was thinking that maybe - if I'm coming from Santander or San Sebsatian - I could get on those trains at Palencia or Leon?

Alvia 05115 calls at Zamora, Ourense, Vilagarcia de Arousa and Pontevedra
The Alvia 04145 calls at Zamora, Ourense, and Santiago de Compostela, where the change to the Media Distancia 09183 would be made.

Coming from either Santander or San Sebastian, Renfe always imply you travel to Madrid first, then from there to Vigo - Urzaiz on trains that arrive much later in the day (20:12 coming from San Sebastián, 23:46 from Santander)

BTW, just a fun fact: In March of 1888 it was possible to do London Victoria to Lisbon - Rossio by train (probably with a ferry through the English Channel).

Departure from Victoria at 10:00, arriving in Lisbon at 15:15 two days later!

 

[AlbertBeale]

BTW, just a fun fact: In March of 1888 it was possible to do London Victoria to Lisbon - Rossio by train (probably with a ferry through the English Channel).

Departure from Victoria at 10:00, arriving in Lisbon at 15:15 two days later!

View attachment 110580

I'd say certainly with a ferry across the Channel...!

That's astounding - 130 years later and you'd be hard-pushed to do anything like such a seamless London-Lisbon journey much quicker.

(And the food and drink prices look good in those days too!)

 

[Giugiaro]

I'd say certainly with a ferry across the Channel...!

I mean... where there train ferries at the time?
Or did CIWL have its own fleet of passenger only boats?

 

[stuu]

I mean... where there trains ferries at the time?
Or did CIWL have its own fleet of passenger only boats?

The train ferries only ever carried freight, passengers had to walk. Fairly sure CIWL didn't have their own ships, probably had some sort of priority boarding or their own gangway though. 2:45 from arrival at Dover to leaving Calais is barely slower than today!

 

[RT4038]

The train ferries only ever carried freight, passengers had to walk. Fairly sure CIWL didn't have their own ships, probably had some sort of priority boarding or their own gangway though. 2:45 from arrival at Dover to leaving Calais is barely slower than today!

That it is not quite right. There were no train ferries carrying passengers in trains in 1888 - doubt there were train ferries at all then the goods being transshipped (twice). However, passengers in CIWL sleeping cars travelled across the Channel (on the 'Night Ferry') from about 1936 to 1980( or thereabouts I think). Lesser ticketed passengers had to walk.

 

[stuu]

That it is not quite right. There were no train ferries carrying passengers in trains in 1888 - doubt there were train ferries at all then the goods being transshipped (twice). However, passengers in CIWL sleeping cars travelled across the Channel (on the 'Night Ferry') from about 1936 to 1980( or thereabouts I think). Lesser ticketed passengers had to walk.

Yes of course, you are right, I was thinking of the Golden Arrow/Fleche D'or

 

[AlbertBeale]

I mean... where there train ferries at the time?
Or did CIWL have its own fleet of passenger only boats?

Woops - sorry - I thought you were joking about getting across without a boat or something ... I have a history of finding that British and Portuguese senses of humour don't always match...

The train ferries only ever carried freight, passengers had to walk. Fairly sure CIWL didn't have their own ships, probably had some sort of priority boarding or their own gangway though. 2:45 from arrival at Dover to leaving Calais is barely slower than today!

Surely that's 1h45m from setting sail from Dover to leaving Calais on the train? If a clock time difference existed in those days, then the implication would be that this was just 45mins!

I note that being on the train from Calais 3h30m after your train leaves London Victoria is better than is possible today!

PS - I'm not sure how the railways dealt with this for cross-Channel journeys, but in those days both Britain and France used local solar time - for London and Paris respectively - ie only about 9 minutes apart. But it clearly wasn't the case that Calais time was an hour earlier than Dover time, as implicit in the idea that it took 2h45m from leaving Dover to leaving Calais.

 

[Giugiaro]

Woops - sorry - I thought you were joking about getting across without a boat or something ... I have a history of finding that British and Portuguese senses of humour don't always match...

It had mostly to do with the fact that in Portuguese we use "Ferrie" (a portuguesification of the English word Ferry) specifically for boats that can carry other types of transport in transit.
Since I didn't know whether or not CIWL stock was used across the English Channel, I assumed that they would be shipped to and from the UK with the passengers onboard, as the page where the timetable is printed on had no mention of boat transfers.