GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[JN114]

These are the same messrooms (that I frequent) that also had odds of Virgin "taking us over", IET'S never coming, 143's being kept for another 10 years and so on

Admittedly however - if reports/hearsay are to be believed - it’s actually the stance of the elected representatives of those mess room Inhabitants that they won’t be driving the 769s in service; not at least without significant and expensive modifications which I’d wager are unlikely to be signed off by DfT.

It’s 6 months since GWR accepted the first unit(s) for driver training to commence - so far it’s been a couple of senior driver managers and that’s it. Meanwhile they’re not getting the mileage needed to bed in and improve in reliability

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly, apparently another (unnamed) TOC has shown an interest in them, goodness knows why. Sounds like they are someone high up in GWR vanity project?!

Southern could take them for the Uckfield/Marshlink service and release the 171's perhaps!!

 

[JonathanH]

Admittedly however - if reports/hearsay are to be believed - it’s actually the stance of the elected representatives of those mess room Inhabitants that they won’t be driving the 769s in service; not at least without significant and expensive modifications which I’d wager are unlikely to be signed off by DfT.

It is an interesting question as to whether the union would prefer another 10 years of Turbo operation to 10 years of 769s on the relevant routes. Their stance appears to favour the Turbos continuing.

I guess they don't get a vote on Turbo operation.

Southern could take them for the Uckfield/Marshlink service and release the 171's perhaps!!

No they couldn't as they won't fit through Oxted tunnel.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It is an interesting question as to whether the union would prefer another 10 years of Turbo operation to 10 years of 769s on the relevant routes. Their stance appears to favour the Turbos continuing.

I guess they don't get a vote on Turbo operation.

Do Turbos have air con in the cabs ? The Turbos certainly have a less hemmed in environment from the photos I have seen. But obviously ASLEF have signed them off after the mods have been completed ?

 

[delticdave]

It is an interesting question as to whether the union would prefer another 10 years of Turbo operation to 10 years of 769s on the relevant routes. Their stance appears to favour the Turbos continuing.

I guess they don't get a vote on Turbo operation.


No they couldn't as they won't fit through Oxted tunnel.

Why can't they run through the Oxted tunnel? Quite a few large locomotives & coaches have passed through on the way to & from the Bluebell Railway, + the Uckfield line DMU's weren't undersized either.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Why can't they run through the Oxted tunnel? Quite a few large locomotives & coaches have passed through on the way to & from the Bluebell Railway, + the Uckfield line DMU's weren't undersized either.

Isn't the overall width in the middle of the vehicles ? and the tunnel which allegedly has a nasty kink in it.

 

[RPI]

Do Turbos have air con in the cabs ? The Turbos certainly have a less hemmed in environment from the photos I have seen. But obviously ASLEF have signed them off after the mods have been completed ?

Turbos have quite a cramped Cab, particularly for a unit that is massive in every other proportion! but they do have air con/cooling in the cabs

 

[Bob Price]

Once CAF have finished building the 197's at Newport they will have spare capacity. I wonder if it's worth GWR trying to get a batch of two and three car 197's added onto the order. Would be a lot quicker than a pure new build. Or they could have the 175's. They are used to climbing hills.

 

[43102EMR]

Once CAF have finished building the 197's at Newport they will have spare capacity. I wonder if it's worth GWR trying to get a batch of two and three car 197's added onto the order. Would be a lot quicker than a pure new build. Or they could have the 175's. They are used to climbing hills.

If anything, the 175s will be used to release the Turbos from WoE services to come back to the NDL. I personally think it won’t happen though, especially with all the effort GWR is putting to make the 769s run on the route.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 09/03 1042 Wolverton - Reading Traincare
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K04679/2022-03-09/detailed

 

[cactustwirly]

It is an interesting question as to whether the union would prefer another 10 years of Turbo operation to 10 years of 769s on the relevant routes. Their stance appears to favour the Turbos continuing.

I guess they don't get a vote on Turbo operation.


No they couldn't as they won't fit through Oxted tunnel.

You're making it sound like the 769s are an improvement over the turbos?

From a passenger perspective the turbos are superior in every way over the 769s, except the 769s have an extra carriage.
The current train crew have signed the 165s for 30 years. They surely don't mind another 10

 

[FGW_DID]

So that's physical and industrial relations failures in this whole sorry saga! What happened to power-to-weight calculations for the routes likely to run the units? Has it all just been back-of-envelope stuff when designing and executing the conversions? The costs associated with the abortive class 769 NDL introduction must be considerable, including the interminable testing/mileage accumulation runs (and the many failures), platform extensions, which probably won't now see use for years, and all the zoning signs (applied in reverse at Dorking West - see picture). Just another excruciating mess.

View attachment 111142

If you believe everything that’s posted on this thread, “ A friend at GWR“ says they’ve heard etc seems to be getting taken for gospel! It’s a big company and there is a lot of mess room wibble out there!

 

[Techniquest]

If you believe everything that’s posted on this thread, “ A friend at GWR“ says they’ve heard etc seems to be getting taken for gospel! It’s a big company and there is a lot of mess room wibble out there!

Quite so. There seems to be people out there purposefully creating false information and passing it on, knowing it will end up on this forum. Said people then end up taking pleasure in seeing their lies taken as truth.

I am getting impatient with the GWR 769s, I'll hold my hands up to that, but that's just me being silly. I'm still learning the art of patience, it's not easy but I'm getting there! Even so, I'd rather apply the expression of 'good things come to those who wait' and simply be grateful those who know what they're doing are doing it.

It happened eventually with TfW, and with Northern, so it will with GWR too. Not all that long ago, both of the discussion threads for the relevant operators' 769s were very active. Full of moaning about this and that, rumours and all sorts. I might be missing it lately, but I'm sure I haven't seen any posting on those threads for a good while. So things have clearly settled in, and in time this thread will hopefully follow suit.

In the meantime, I hope the false rumours will either cease or stop being believed!

 

[AM9]

In the meantime, I hope the false rumours will either cease or stop being believed!

Well said! The problem there is that some seem willing to believe the rumours, maybe they want the rumours to be true, especially those who have been complaining about them since day one. Maybe they are just waitina far better passenger experience than a 150. I'm looking forward to their introduction on the NDL over what isn't that special in terms of gradients when compared to what they seem to be achieving in Northern and TfW service.

 

[Andypandy1968]

Well said! The problem there is that some seem willing to believe the rumours, maybe they want the rumours to be true, especially those who have been complaining about them since day one. Maybe they are just waitina far better passenger experience than a 150. I'm looking forward to their introduction on the NDL over what isn't that special in terms of gradients when compared to what they seem to be achieving in Northern and TfW service.

Re gradients, the GWR ones are much heavier, having diesel engine, 3rd rail shoes and pantographs!!

 

[Domh245]

Re gradients, the GWR ones are much heavier, having diesel engine, 3rd rail shoes and pantographs!!

Given that the Northern versions only lack the (4x) 3rd rail shoes (few tens of kilos), and the TfW versions only lack the pantograph (again, no more than a couple hundred kilos I'd have thought) I don't think that's a significant factor, certainly "much" heavier is doubtful. The number of passengers onboard will be a bigger variation than the equipment that was/n't removed

 

[Wyrleybart]

Given that the Northern versions only lack the (4x) 3rd rail shoes (few tens of kilos), and the TfW versions only lack the pantograph (again, no more than a couple hundred kilos I'd have thought) I don't think that's a significant factor, certainly "much" heavier is doubtful. The number of passengers onboard will be a bigger variation than the equipment that was/n't removed

Maybe not that much heavier, but fundamentally more complex. The TfW 769s are operating as straight DEMUs so there is no power switching at all. The Northern ones interact with the OLE, but the GWR ones have more complex switching arrangements with 750V DC and 25KV AC and their diesels. In other words, Northern 769s are still having the odd issue with drivers having been used to them for over a year now. GWR haven't even trained any drivers yet and are using "crash test dummies" (meant in the nicest possible sense !!) to perform whatever they are doing with them.

 

[Domh245]

Maybe not that much heavier, but fundamentally more complex. The TfW 769s are operating as straight DEMUs so there is no power switching at all. The Northern ones interact with the OLE, but the GWR ones have more complex switching arrangements with 750V DC and 25KV AC and their diesels. In other words, Northern 769s are still having the odd issue with drivers having been used to them for over a year now. GWR haven't even trained any drivers yet and are using "crash test dummies" (meant in the nicest possible sense !!) to perform whatever they are doing with them.

I don't doubt that, but the assertion was that the GWR units were "much heavier" - which I'd dispute.

I will admit that I'd forgotten that the GWR units have a second bus-line but even this would not throw the weight out significantly.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I don't doubt that, but the assertion was that the GWR units were "much heavier" - which I'd dispute.

I will admit that I'd forgotten that the GWR units have a second bus-line but even this would not throw the weight out significantly.

If you add weight to something there comes a time when it does start to make a difference, trust me!
Can only see these operating Reading to Basingstoke and Padd to Bedwyn, if that.

 

[JonathanH]

Can only see these operating Reading to Basingstoke and Padd to Bedwyn, if that.

I dont know what makes you think they would go to Paddington. Are you ruling out their previously advertised use to Henley and Bourne End for some reason?

 

[JN114]

If you add weight to something there comes a time when it does start to make a difference, trust me!
Can only see these operating Reading to Basingstoke and Padd to Bedwyn, if that.

Zero chance of them being used to Bedwyn - Paddington to Bedwyn ceases to be an all-day service from May; you’d need to involve (driver) depots other than Reading at that stage; route clearance has never been done for them beyond Southcote; sluggish 100mph trains won’t fit amongst the much higher performance 387s/IETs on the main lines; and there won’t be the paths on the relief lines to move the Bedwyns over there once Crossrail starts ramping up its services in the near future.

The few runs that have run, yes have had their faults - but when working they’ve coped with the gradients of the North Downs with relative ease. I’ll echo what most have said - mess room gossip is just that.

 

[Deepgreen]

Re gradients, the GWR ones are much heavier, having diesel engine, 3rd rail shoes and pantographs!!

A close friend's brother works at Reading depot and confirms the 'rumours'. Regarding the weight of the units - it's pretty basic to calculate that into the route availability. I really hope I'm wrong but it looks to me and anyone else who has been promised these for years like a disaster.

 

[Andypandy1968]

I dont know what makes you think they would go to Paddington. Are you ruling out their previously advertised use to Henley and Bourne End for some reason?

Apparently there is a steep gradient out of Bourne end, if they won't handle the NDL they won't stand a snowball in hells chance of getting out of Bourne End.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2022 ==

Zero chance of them being used to Bedwyn - Paddington to Bedwyn ceases to be an all-day service from May; you’d need to involve (driver) depots other than Reading at that stage; route clearance has never been done for them beyond Southcote; sluggish 100mph trains won’t fit amongst the much higher performance 387s/IETs on the main lines; and there won’t be the paths on the relief lines to move the Bedwyns over there once Crossrail starts ramping up its services in the near future.

The few runs that have run, yes have had their faults - but when working they’ve coped with the gradients of the North Downs with relative ease. I’ll echo what most have said - mess room gossip is just that.

'when working they’ve coped with the gradients of the North Downs with relative ease'
Whilst empty!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2022 ==

A close friend's brother works at Reading depot and confirms the 'rumours'. Regarding the weight of the units - it's pretty basic to calculate that into the route availability. I really hope I'm wrong but it looks to me and anyone else who has been promised these for years like a disaster.

A GWR vanity project, nothing to do with the DfT

 

[JonathanH]

A GWR vanity project, nothing to do with the DfT

No - the DfT are supporting it.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-17#post-5028467
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-47#post-5502432

While the reasons for the procurement of 769s may have fallen away, the DfT is clearly still supporting their introduction. It is not just a 'GWR vanity project' as you surmise.

 

[Andypandy1968]

No - the DfT are supporting it.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-17#post-5028467
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...mation-discussion.174866/page-47#post-5502432

While the reasons for the procurement of 769s may have fallen away, the DfT is clearly still supporting their introduction. It is not just a 'GWR vanity project' as you surmise.

So both the DfT and GWR will end up with egg on their faces then

 

[3973EXL]

STP 11/03 1042 Wolverton - Reading Traincare
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K01122/2022-03-11/detailed

 

[Techniquest]

I must confess, reading TfL 769s made me wonder what a TfL Rail 769 would look like and where they would use such a train. Handy for crowdbusting I would imagine if nothing else!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

3O's in for tomorrow so lets see if they perform tomorrow.

reading through this i'd say the bigger issue here is whether ASLEF will sign off on the cabs although can't see how each union area has its own view like over the 701's.

 

[AM9]

I must confess, reading TfL 769s made me wonder what a TfL Rail 769 would look like and where they would use such a train. Handy for crowdbusting I would imagine if nothing else!

It's a typo, - it was a follow on from my post #1594 which mentioned TFW.

 

[Techniquest]

It's a typo, - it was a follow on from my post #1594 which mentioned TFW.

I had assumed so (hadn't thought to mention it on this thread as it seemed obvious it was TfW and just a typo), but I just wanted to mention that it had me thinking about TfL using 769s, just a slightly amusing train of thought.

Quite, I guess there's potential for 769s to move around eventually and who knows, maybe TfL would find a use for them. Extremely unlikely, I know, I think I'm just picturing an alternative reality. Time to hit the hay I think