How do you enforce pick up and set down only?

[Bletchleyite]

Believe that TPE trains calling at Bolton on their way to Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly are invariably set down only at Bolton. (Or pick up only in the Preston direction).

They are, but I think a PF or prosecution is very questionable, even with the modified NRCoT.

It would seem feasible to change the Penalty Fares legislation to specifically allow that case, though, perhaps the new legislation with the change to a supplement of £50 will.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They are, but I think a PF or prosecution is very questionable, even with the modified NRCoT.

Have Virgin/Avanti ever been successfully challenged when attempting to charge three figure Anytime fares from a distant station for passengers holding local tickets boarding "set down only" trains at Watford Junction?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have Virgin/Avanti ever been successfully challenged when attempting to charge three figure Anytime fares from a distant station for passengers holding local tickets boarding "set down only" trains at Watford Junction?

Despite this being talked about it isn't done often, so that rather depends if one of the few people it's actually been done to has challenged it or not.

 

[Kite159]

Believe that TPE trains calling at Bolton on their way to Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly are invariably set down only at Bolton. (Or pick up only in the Preston direction).

Hopefully in the brave new world of GBR the set down only restriction at Bolton will get dropped. After all the DfT will be getting all the revenue from a Bolton to Manchester Airport ticket, no need to split it between the various operators.

Pick up only makes sense to avoid Bolton passengers from taking up seats for those passengers going further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully in the brave new world of GBR the set down only restriction at Bolton will get dropped. After all the DfT will be getting all the revenue from a Bolton to Manchester Airport ticket, no need to split it between the various operators.

Pick up only makes sense to avoid Bolton passengers from taking up seats for those passengers going further.

It's nowt to do with revenue. It's just to stop short distance passengers crowding out the shorter TPE train when there are 6-car 331s for them.

The Watford Junction one, which is also to stop commuters crowding out long distance trains, dates back well into BR days.

 

[Ken H]

Wakefield westgate used to be pick up and set down for the most popular trains. Dont think ot is now.

 

[Horizon22]

In reality, you often don't / can't enforce it. It is primarily used as a crowd control measure as either planned (to prevent passengers swamping the service with another viable alternative) or in disruption (short formations, special events etc.) The vast majority won't board a train that doesn't show their destination and has been removed from online systems, so it is purely academic most of the time.

 

[RailWonderer]

In reality, you often don't / can't enforce it. It is primarily used as a crowd control measure as either planned (to prevent passengers swamping the service with another viable alternative) or in disruption (short formations, special events etc.) The vast majority won't board a train that doesn't show their destination and has been removed from online systems, so it is purely academic most of the time.

Watford Junction is a stronghold though for passengers boarding for Euston, as I have seen, especially because a guard cannot enforce everyone boarding a full 9 or 11 car Pendolino. Especially since the LNR is sometimes on the opposite platform and they take the first train heading in the same direction, but this is a rare exception. Most people don't step on unadvertised trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watford Junction is a stronghold though for passengers boarding for Euston, as I have seen, especially because a guard cannot enforce everyone boarding a full 9 or 11 car Pendolino. Especially since the LNR is sometimes on the opposite platform and they take the first train heading in the same direction, but this is a rare exception. Most people don't step on unadvertised trains.

Most people just go to Platform 9 for Euston and take the next LNR, with a few going from 10 in the peaks which is same-island. Even more so because the car park has direct access onto there.

Hardly anyone attempts to use Avanti to Euston from Watford. And in the other direction, they would be refused by the ticket checks before boarding.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I boarded a Lumo train at Stevenage, and in a very vulgar manner, the guard decided to make an announcement down the PA saying,
“Would the young customer in the red hoodie who decided to jump on this train at Stevenage despite signs saying Set Down Only, please leave this train now before you are issued with a penalty fare.”

I’ve never felt so humiliated in my life.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Set down only on late night trains are dangerous to rely upon in the South Eastern area, everytime I catch the last train London Vic to Dover Priory the guard does the standard dance as the train departs Faversham and starts walking the carriages asking passenger where they are disembarking they'll skip Selling if they can they have to stop at Canterbury East and then every village to Dover is up for a skip if there are no passengers for them. As that train normally sits in the platform overnight and tends to be the last run for the driver and conductor it's in their interests to arrive in Dover 10 - 15mins early

 

[Peter0124]

Glasgow to Motherwell was set down and pick up too, but was lifted.

On SWR service out of Waterloo the guard said we are making an additional stop at Clapham Junction.

The majority of Motherwell VT calls are set down/pick up now I think

 

[Taunton]

I know in cases of severe overcrowding, at least pre-Covid, of West Country services for GWR to pull the Pick Up Only Reading stop from services.

Cue the complaints at Didcot/Oxford/Taunton that their train didn't stop at Reading, only to be told they shouldn't be boarding it and they'd better get on a train back at their own cost.

The railway never in the past charged aggressively those who are on the wrong train, and in fact would go to extra effort to right the situation for the passenger. In the days when there were local services from Watford Junction to Liverpool Street, on the opposite side of the island from those to Liverpool Lime Street, it was by no means unknown for passengers to leave on the wrong one. It really is for the railway themselves to manage the situation better. Nobody forced them to have common barrier lines where once there were individual checks entering each platform/departure. You can't make a revenue opportunity out of doing something to save yourself money.

 

[Class800]

Glasgow to Motherwell was set down and pick up too, but was lifted.

On SWR service out of Waterloo the guard said we are making an additional stop at Clapham Junction.

In case of disruption, the Clapham Junction pick up stop has on occasions been announced as a full stop

 

[Route115?]

I know that set down only stops were sometimes applied to allow an early running train to depart early.

You have to know what you are doing with such stops. I was travelling back to West Ruislip from Wembley Stadium during the 2012 Olympics and there was a very convenient train with a pick up only stop. This meant that it wsn't on the passenger information system (although the driver helpfully announced the stop).

As an aside many years ago I was working for Network North which included the outer suburban lines out of Euston and was travelling back from Watford to Euston. The first train was an InterCity service but it was set down only. I bumped into my manager who was doing the same thing. I joked that the outer suburban service (that he was responsible for) was terrible and he replied that he had spent the last eighteen months trying to get more stops at Watford. Maybe that was a comment on how slow timetabling was in those days.

 

[James90012]

There is a fair bit of set down only in South Eastern land in the evening, e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L20699/2022-04-10/detailed

Is there any physical reason you wouldn't be able to board this train at somewhere like Longfield or Meopham? Appreciate it's a niche journey but it's actually one I might need to do in the coming months! Seems like an obvious way for the railway to earn a few extra quid and save a taxi fare but I'm sure there're reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a fair bit of set down only in South Eastern land in the evening, e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L20699/2022-04-10/detailed

Is there any physical reason you wouldn't be able to board this train at somewhere like Longfield or Meopham? Appreciate it's a niche journey but it's actually one I might need to do in the coming months! Seems like an obvious way for the railway to earn a few extra quid and save a taxi fare but I'm sure there're reasons.

Doubt anyone would stop you. The reason for doing it on last trains is to simplify the provision of rail replacement if it needs to be diverted or part-cancelled.

 

[Watershed]

I boarded a Lumo train at Stevenage, and in a very vulgar manner, the guard decided to make an announcement down the PA saying,
“Would the young customer in the red hoodie who decided to jump on this train at Stevenage despite signs saying Set Down Only, please leave this train now before you are issued with a penalty fare.”

I’ve never felt so humiliated in my life.

What a load of twaddle - Lumo don't operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

Now yes, if you held no ticket at all you could have been sold one from Newcastle - but even then, that would have been £59. That wouldn't be wildly more than a Penalty Fare on a Great Northern service (£31 on a weekday, £26 on the weekend).

And if you held a ticket from Stevenage and managed to get on, there would be nothing they could do about it apart from moan.

There is a fair bit of set down only in South Eastern land in the evening, e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L20699/2022-04-10/detailed

Is there any physical reason you wouldn't be able to board this train at somewhere like Longfield or Meopham? Appreciate it's a niche journey but it's actually one I might need to do in the coming months! Seems like an obvious way for the railway to earn a few extra quid and save a taxi fare but I'm sure there're reasons.

It's unlikely that anyone would try to stop you boarding. It's simply done that way so that they can simplify the provision of rail replacement when there are engineering works or if the train is cancelled for any reason.

They only need to arrange for replacement transport to depart Victoria and Bromley South - and it's very much possible that a rail replacement bus might skip out stops that no-one has requested.

 

[Kite159]

What a load of twaddle - Lumo don't operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

Now yes, if you held no ticket at all you could have been sold one from Newcastle - but even then, that would have been £59. That wouldn't be wildly more than a Penalty Fare on a Great Northern service (£31 on a weekday, £26 on the weekend).

And if you held a ticket from Stevenage and managed to get on, there would be nothing they could do about it apart from moan.


It's unlikely that anyone would try to stop you boarding. It's simply done that way so that they can simplify the provision of rail replacement when there are engineering works or if the train is cancelled for any reason.

They only need to arrange for replacement transport to depart Victoria and Bromley South - and it's very much possible that a rail replacement bus might skip out stops that no-one has requested.

And I suspect on some of the late night trains to somewhere like Dover, the guard will walk through the train asking passengers where they are going, so the train can skip some of the smaller stations if there is nobody on board for those stations. If such a thing is allowed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I suspect on some of the late night trains to somewhere like Dover, the guard will walk through the train asking passengers where they are going, so the train can skip some of the smaller stations if there is nobody on board for those stations. If such a thing is allowed.

Also for diversions it means the train can run early rather than having to wait around.

 

[Edsmith]

And I suspect on some of the late night trains to somewhere like Dover, the guard will walk through the train asking passengers where they are going, so the train can skip some of the smaller stations if there is nobody on board for those stations. If such a thing is allowed.

Yes that's what happens if it's a set down only stop.

There is a fair bit of set down only in South Eastern land in the evening, e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L20699/2022-04-10/detailed

Is there any physical reason you wouldn't be able to board this train at somewhere like Longfield or Meopham? Appreciate it's a niche journey but it's actually one I might need to do in the coming months! Seems like an obvious way for the railway to earn a few extra quid and save a taxi fare but I'm sure there're reasons.

If the train stopped nobody would try and stop you boarding but if nobody was getting off the train probably wouldn't stop.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What a load of twaddle - Lumo don't operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

Now yes, if you held no ticket at all you could have been sold one from Newcastle - but even then, that would have been £59. That wouldn't be wildly more than a Penalty Fare on a Great Northern service (£31 on a weekday, £26 on the weekend).

And if you held a ticket from Stevenage and managed to get on, there would be nothing they could do about it apart from moan.


It's unlikely that anyone would try to stop you boarding. It's simply done that way so that they can simplify the provision of rail replacement when there are engineering works or if the train is cancelled for any reason.

They only need to arrange for replacement transport to depart Victoria and Bromley South - and it's very much possible that a rail replacement bus might skip out stops that no-one has requested.

Tempted to complain because the humiliation was excruciating

 

[Edsmith]

Tempted to complain because the humiliation was excruciating

I would most certainly complain, apart from being rude the guard shouldn't be making up their own rules.

 

[yorkie]

Tempted to complain because the humiliation was excruciating

Please do, though I remain to be convinced that Lumo are any different to any other TOC in terms of sweeping such incidents under the carpet, but I'd like to be proven wrong on that.

Based on what you have said, it sounds like Lumo are no better than the rest in terms of making up false claims in order to humiliate customers; I'd expect (and deserve) to be given the sack if I did that in my job!

I would most certainly complain, apart from being rude the guard shouldn't be making up their own rules.

If I had a pound for every time I'd heard a Guard make up their own rules, I'd be able to buy a rather expensive ticket with the proceeds.

There is a fair bit of set down only in South Eastern land in the evening, e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L20699/2022-04-10/detailed

Is there any physical reason you wouldn't be able to board this train at somewhere like Longfield or Meopham? Appreciate it's a niche journey but it's actually one I might need to do in the coming months! Seems like an obvious way for the railway to earn a few extra quid and save a taxi fare but I'm sure there're reasons.

If the train has to be cancelled due to engineering works they only have to organise replacement taxis from Victoria or Bromley South.

I doubt anyone is going to physically stop you boarding but there is no obligation on Southeastern's part to convey anyone who turns up for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tempted to complain because the humiliation was excruciating

You shouldn't have boarded. Thus, a complaint is hardly going to succeed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You shouldn't have boarded. Thus, a complaint is hardly going to succeed.

Do you know what then? They shouldn’t have a massive page advertising Stevenage as a destination then, and if they must have one they should say you can’t use their services to travel to/from London.

 

[scotrail158713]

You shouldn't have boarded. Thus, a complaint is hardly going to succeed.

There are better ways you could word the announcement that don't humiliate and still get the message across though. That would be my complaint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are better ways you could word the announcement that don't humiliate and still get the message across though. That would be my complaint.

Barring a genuinely outrageous announcement, such as one that was overtly sexist, racist or homophobic, I think if you've done something that was definitely wrong, you knew it was wrong, and it was made clear on the PIS that it was wrong, then an announcement along the lines of "Ladies and gentlemen, please note that smoking is prohibited on this station, this includes the man in the yellow jacket by the escalator, yes, you" is a totally reasonable way to deal with the issue. I've heard that sort of thing a few times.

The thing about a PF is tripe because they are not a PF TOC (though I seem to recall something in the new NRCoT would legitimise the sale of a single from Newcastle, though I forget what), but describing the offender (so they know it's aimed at them) and asking them to leave seems totally reasonable to me. They might even be helped by a passenger assisting them to leave so the train can proceed - this is a classic London bus driver tactic to get a non-payer off without risk of assault.

You'd get the exact same thing if you boarded a southbound Avanti at Watford. Those ones aren't about timetable efficiencies or being able to depart early, they're because the TOC gets no revenue and thus doesn't want to carry you for free.

If the OP wanted a ride on Lumo for a ride on Lumo's sake (which I guess he did) a quick polite word with the guard (or whatever it is they have instead) might have resulted in him being allowed on anyway.

I’ve never felt so humiliated in my life.

With all due respect, you were doing something you weren't meant to do, you knew you weren't meant to do, and if you didn't the PIS was telling you you weren't meant to do it. I don't think that announcement was impolite. It made it clear they were asking you to leave, and presumably you did.

The bit about a PF was nonsense, but if you're going to break the rules you do need to accept what might happen if you get caught, and a slightly pointed announcement is down the low end of things that might happen.

 

[yorkie]

With all due respect, you were doing something you weren't meant to do, you knew you weren't meant to do, and if you didn't the PIS was telling you you weren't meant to do it. I don't think that announcement was impolite. It made it clear they were asking you to leave, and presumably you did.

The bit about a PF was nonsense, but if you're going to break the rules you do need to accept what might happen if you get caught, and a slightly pointed announcement is down the low end of things that might happen.

Would your employer condone similar behaviour to the Lumo staff member?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would your employer condone similar behaviour to the Lumo staff member?

As you're well aware, I will not bring my employer into any conversations on this Forum; it is my personal policy that I do not discuss my employment in any public forum, ever.

However, other than the incorrect statement about Penalty Fares, I personally have no other issue with the announcement made, and I have heard that kind of announcement made on the railway a number of times, and they generally work in preventing the undesirable behaviour from continuing. So I will certainly state that, other than the incorrect statement about Penalty Fares, that I condone it, yes.

It wasn't rude. It just made sure the individual knew he was the one being spoken about, and asked him to desist from behaviour that was not allowed. The outcome was presumably that he did desist from it, i.e. leave the train. Problem solved.

If I was that member of staff's manager and the complaint appeared on my desk, I would thank them for ensuring that the Company's policy was followed, but ask nicely that they didn't make stuff up about Penalty Fares. Biscuits would be served with the metaphorical tea during the discussion.