Heinz Factory near Wigan to get its own siding?

[Grumpy Git]

Does anyone know what were the changes the workforce rejected?

No but I suppose Farage won't mention that his great crusade has not stopped investment going to the wrong side of the channel. £140m is not to be sniffed at.

 

[Brian1947]

Investment of £140m in the Heinz plant at Kitt Green has been diverted to Spain and Poland thanks to a vote by the workforce not to accept changes in working practices.

Looks like the siding may not be coming after all.

I tend to take the opposite view.

Had the investment taken place then Ketchup, and possibly other sauces, would only have needed their raw materials to be shipped into the plant with finished goods being transferred down the road to the NDC.

Shipments from these two plants could be moved by rail through the tunnel if all parties pull in the same direction.

i do wonder if the carrot being dangled was more about changes to working practices than the building of another sauce facility that would essentially supply just the UK and ROI.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

No but I suppose Farage won't mention that his great crusade has not stopped investment going to the wrong side of the channel. £140m is not to be sniffed at.

Well, with all due respect to your opinion about both Brexit and Mr. Farage, the story so far is that a failure to agree about changes has brought this result. If anyone knows that Heinz' decision was based on the U.K. no longer being a part of the European Union, please provide some details.

 

[4F89]

Investment of £140m in the Heinz plant at Kitt Green has been diverted to Spain and Poland thanks to a vote by the workforce not to accept changes in working practices.

Looks like the siding may not be coming after all.

Kraft Heinz issues statement on future of major factory

The Kitt Green plant makes Heinz tomato ketchup and employs more than 1,000 workers

www.business-live.co.uk

There was never going to be a siding....

 

[507020]

There was never going to be a siding....

Clearly not now Heinz’s intentions have been revealed, but we were led to believe that there would be a while ago.

 

[Class 170101]

Just my humble opinion, but with the UK now outside the EU it has created extra barriers and costs that Heinz sought to offset by changes to working practises to cut those costs to match (or better) costs in Spain and Poland, the workers here said no and so Spain and Poland were in prime position for the investment, and of course no rail investment either.

 

[WatcherZero]

Does anyone know what were the changes the workforce rejected?

Suspected to be removal of shift allowances so they could recruit a permanent night shift staff. The existing staff were objecting to the potential loss of the extra pay working nights.

 

[kermit]

Suspected to be removal of shift allowances so they could recruit a permanent night shift staff. The existing staff were objecting to the potential loss of the extra pay working nights.

Is there not really well established research that shows that working nights causes significant harm to health? There are lots of places, eg hospitals, where there is no option but to work nights. But in a sauce factory, the only reason to work nights is to maximise profit from capital tied up in machinery. To the predictable detriment of employee health. Karl Marx wasn't wrong about some things, was he? Sorry mods, that's gone rather OT! But to retrieve it, perhaps, a company with such a cynical approach to the wellbeing of its workers might also be less than genuinely committed to environmental benefits associated with a rail connection?

 

[4F89]

Clearly not now Heinz’s intentions have been revealed, but we were led to believe that there would be a while ago.

No, enthusiasts wanted one, but just because enthusiasts want, don't mean enthusiasts get. It was never, ever, going to involve a siding. Which I have tried to say since the beginning of this thread.

 

[furnessvale]

No, enthusiasts wanted one, but just because enthusiasts want, don't mean enthusiasts get. It was never, ever, going to involve a siding. Which I have tried to say since the beginning of this thread.

I presume you have professional inside information for that assertion?

Whilst the trials may well have involved stopping on the main line in the middle of the night for a quick container swap, it is highly unlikely that would have formed a permanent solution for a factory the size of Kitt Green.

 

[themiller]

Is there not really well established research that shows that working nights causes significant harm to health? There are lots of places, eg hospitals, where there is no option but to work nights. But in a sauce factory, the only reason to work nights is to maximise profit from capital tied up in machinery. To the predictable detriment of employee health. Karl Marx wasn't wrong about some things, was he? Sorry mods, that's gone rather OT! But to retrieve it, perhaps, a company with such a cynical approach to the wellbeing of its workers might also be less than genuinely committed to environmental benefits associated with a rail connection?

I regret being drawn into an OT conversation but a sauce production line is a ‘continuous process’ which, if halted overnight would require time to shut down, clean, then time to heat up. These factors would render the line unprofitable.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Suspected to be removal of shift allowances so they could recruit a permanent night shift staff. The existing staff were objecting to the potential loss of the extra pay working nights.

Thank you.

 

[Brian1947]

Is there not really well established research that shows that working nights causes significant harm to health? There are lots of places, eg hospitals, where there is no option but to work nights. But in a sauce factory, the only reason to work nights is to maximise profit from capital tied up in machinery. To the predictable detriment of employee health. Karl Marx wasn't wrong about some things, was he? Sorry mods, that's gone rather OT! But to retrieve it, perhaps, a company with such a cynical approach to the wellbeing of its workers might also be less than genuinely committed to environmental benefits associated with a rail connection?

There are many industries where it is impractical to shut down production in the evening, too numerous to detail here.

Going back to the start of energy price rises I remember a spokesperson for Pilkington Glass saying they work 365 x 24, taking days to cool down the ovens hence the reason no Xmas shutdown.

Heinz Kitt Green is not a sauce factory, it produces beans, soup and pasta. Once production ceases it takes a couple of hours for the products to be sterilised, labelled, etc. That is why that particular factory operates 24 x 7.

How many rail or bus passengers would like to see the previous days rubbish still there when they try to sit on their favourite seat the next morning! Mind you there would be no newspapers as these are printed at night.

 

[4F89]

There are many industries where it is impractical to shut down production in the evening, too numerous to detail here.

Going back to the start of energy price rises I remember a spokesperson for Pilkington Glass saying they work 365 x 24, taking days to cool down the ovens hence the reason no Xmas shutdown.

Heinz Kitt Green is not a sauce factory, it produces beans, soup and pasta. Once production ceases it takes a couple of hours for the products to be sterilised, labelled, etc. That is why that particular factory operates 24 x 7.

How many rail or bus passengers would like to see the previous days rubbish still there when they try to sit on their favourite seat the next morning! Mind you there would be no newspapers as these are printed at night.

And how many want their daily commute ruined by all the roadworks happening during the day, road and rail grinding to a halt one week per month?

 

[507020]

No, enthusiasts wanted one, but just because enthusiasts want, don't mean enthusiasts get. It was never, ever, going to involve a siding. Which I have tried to say since the beginning of this thread.

Yes, but you can only know for sure that it was never, ever, going to involve a siding now that it has been confirmed that the investment is not going to be made. If it had been, long term solutions involving routinely waking up residents of Parbold or making unsignalled wrong direction movements wouldn’t have been workable, hence a siding. For a 24 hour operation, deliveries would need to be able to be made in the day as well as night.

And yes I’m sure all kinds of enthusiasts wanted to see positive investment made, including both railway enthusiasts, baked bean and tin can enthusiasts.

 

[4F89]

Yes, but you can only know for sure that it was never, ever, going to involve a siding now that it has been confirmed that the investment is not going to be made. If it had been, long term solutions involving routinely waking up residents of Parbold or making unsignalled wrong direction movements wouldn’t have been workable, hence a siding. For a 24 hour operation, deliveries would need to be able to be made in the day as well as night.

And yes I’m sure all kinds of enthusiasts wanted to see positive investment made, including both railway enthusiasts, baked bean and tin can enthusiasts.

OK, in the exceptionally long term, never say never. But there was never a plan to invest in sidings. For such a small factory, with a 30 odd container daily turn round, it wasn't going to reasonably happen any time soon. For Heinz it would cheaper to buy a new factory elsewhere with an existing siding.

Unsignalled wouldn't matter, would be under a posession. Waking the neighbours, wouldn't be any difference between a siding and a run round. 24 hour operation wouldn't matter if u shift enough boxes during the night.

 

[507020]

such a small factory

The biggest Heinz factory in the world and the biggest food factory in Europe…

Waking the neighbours, wouldn't be any difference between a siding and a run round

There is quite a big difference between a siding being in an industrial area which is not in the vicinity of any housing and reversing at a passenger station right in the middle of a residential area in a quiet village.

 

[4F89]

The biggest Heinz factory in the world and the biggest food factory in Europe…

There is quite a big difference between a siding being in an industrial area which is not in the vicinity of any housing and reversing at a passenger station right in the middle of a residential area in a quiet village.

In terms of turnaround. They are only looking to move boxes on rail that would be going to Eastern rail ports. Small in terms of rail capacity, not factory size, sorry if I was unclear.

You know a run round takes 5 minutes, just as long as it takes to travel through from a siding, yeah?

 

[Greybeard33]

You know a run round takes 5 minutes, just as long as it takes to travel through from a siding, yeah?

A runaround might only take 5 minutes if there were a runaround loop. But in this case, as discussed upthread, the loco would have to leave the wagons at Parbold, reverse over the trailing crossover and run light all the way back to Wigan to cross back to the Down line. When it eventually got back to Parbold, it would wake up the residents a second time as it propelled the wagons past the crossover then hauled them over to the Up.

Whereas a siding at the factory would be well away from residential areas.

 

[4F89]

A runaround might only take 5 minutes if there were a runaround loop. But in this case, as discussed upthread, the loco would have to leave the wagons at Parbold, reverse over the trailing crossover and run light all the way back to Wigan to cross back to the Down line. When it eventually got back to Parbold, it would wake up the residents a second time as it propelled the wagons past the crossover then hauled them over to the Up.

Whereas a siding at the factory would be well away from residential areas.

That's not how the move would be made tho, the wagons would be left outside the factory PAD while the loco runs round, then reattach outside the factory, then heading off back to Wigan. The disruption to Parbold would be 5 minutes, once.

 

[Brian1947]

That's not how the move would be made tho, the wagons would be left outside the factory PAD while the loco runs round, then reattach outside the factory, then heading off back to Wigan. The disruption to Parbold would be 5 minutes, once.

I posted the paragraph below a couple of months ago - how much echoing across the Douglas Valley there would be is anyone’s guess. A quick 5 minute reversal in Parbold is the least of the potential noise problems.

The railway is also on a rising gradient at the point where I believe any routine unloading would be done. No doubt this would requiring shunting movements by the loco. It could well be the residents of nearby Standish Lower Ground who are the ones to complain. After all, they are the ones who complained when Heinz built their 20 metre plus high bay warehouse over twenty years ago.

 

[Greybeard33]

That's not how the move would be made tho, the wagons would be left outside the factory PAD while the loco runs round, then reattach outside the factory, then heading off back to Wigan. The disruption to Parbold would be 5 minutes, once.

This would require a wrong direction move on the Down line, in the Absolute Block section beyond the Wallgate station limits. Would Network Rail agree to that as a routine way of working?

 

[4F89]

This would require a wrong direction move on the Down line, in the Absolute Block section beyond the Wallgate station limits. Would Network Rail agree to that as a routine way of working?

There would need to be a WD move somewhere.....

 

[507020]

There would need to be a WD move somewhere.....

Not with the required infrastructure intervention so as to prevent one, e.g. a siding or even just a crossover being provided…

 

[zwk500]

This would require a wrong direction move on the Down line, in the Absolute Block section beyond the Wallgate station limits. Would Network Rail agree to that as a routine way of working?

It could do if it was persuaded the move was adequately protected and that there was no better option for the traffic.

 

[507020]

It could do if it was persuaded the move was adequately protected and that there was no better option for the traffic.

There IS a better option for the traffic and no prizes for guessing that it isn’t reversing at Parbold

 

[zwk500]

There IS a better option for the traffic and no prizes for guessing that it isn’t reversing at Parbold

Infrastructure change isn't a better option because it simply won't be worth the money for either Heinz or the rail industry. A new Crossover will cost millions of pounds.

The only viable option that doesn't involve anything at Parbold is to put a 2nd loco on the rear and work wrong-road to Wallgate. Perfectly possible, if the FOC can find enough spare.

 

[Greybeard33]

There would need to be a WD move somewhere.....

If the wagons were taken to Parbold, the only wrong direction moves would be over the crossovers at Parbold and Wallgate. These are signalled shunt moves, within station limits and in sight of the signal boxes.

Very different to running wrong road on the main line all the way from the factory back to Wallgate.

 

[Eccles1983]

There is a different way thinking about it.

Unhook the loco at wallgate, run it either into the sidings or on to the Pemberton lines, back through wallgate, into North Western, back into wallgate and propel the lot to heinz.

Would require a lot of changing of normal workings but it's possible.

 

[Greybeard33]

There is a different way thinking about it.

Unhook the loco at wallgate, run it either into the sidings or on to the Pemberton lines, back through wallgate, into North Western, back into wallgate and propel the lot to heinz.

Would require a lot of changing of normal workings but it's possible.

It's about 2 miles from Wallgate to the factory....