Southern Metro service changes

[London Trains]

With the very slow and pointless (due to the existence of the fasts) services from Caterham and Coulsdon Town to London Bridge, would it not make sense to replace them with a Victoria fast service that divides at Purley, similar to the London Bridge fast service. Caterham had services to Victoria until the 2018 timetable change, and Tattenham Corner also did at peak times, but these were all lost in 2018.

2tph London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Norwood Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)
Only change is an added Norwood Junction call to retain connectivity to the Overground.

2tph Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Clapham Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)

To replace the old services north of Croydon, divert the Caterham service from Selhurst to West Croydon and terminate there. No replacement is needed for the London Bridge to Coulsdon Town service.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

With the very slow and pointless (due to the existence of the fasts) services from Caterham and Coulsdon Town to London Bridge, would it not make sense to replace them with a Victoria fast service that divides at Purley, similar to the London Bridge fast service. Caterham had services to Victoria until the 2018 timetable change, and Tattenham Corner also did at peak times, but these were all lost in 2018.

2tph London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Norwood Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)
Only change is an added Norwood Junction call to retain connectivity to the Overground.

2tph Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Clapham Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)

To replace the old services north of Croydon, divert the Caterham service from Selhurst to West Croydon and terminate there. No replacement is needed for the London Bridge to Coulsdon Town service.

Splitting and attaching is really not that reliable at the best of times. So having 4tph splitting and attaching at Purley is really not advisable and there is a goal to try and reduce as much splitting/attaching as possible.

Not replacing the London Bridge - Coulsdon Town services means that all stations north of Norwood Junction pretty much lose their direct service to London Bridge, which won't be acceptable or popular.

The London Bridge services can't call at Norwood Junction with the current timetable, meaning it would have to be recast.

Also removing diverting the London Bridge - Caterham services to West Croydon means that all stations between Streatham Common and Selhurst only have 1tph to East Croydon.

I can't really see how this proposal improves the current timetable. Its not impossible to do, but reduces connectivity and also crams up the fast lines and I'd be concerned about the performance of 6 trains an hour crossing from the Fast to Slows at Selhurst.

Interesting idea, I don't think it provides any benefit and is a negative compared to the current timetable.. It won't happen, but always happy to discuss ideas.

 

[43074]

With the very slow and pointless (due to the existence of the fasts) services from Caterham and Coulsdon Town to London Bridge, would it not make sense to replace them with a Victoria fast service that divides at Purley, similar to the London Bridge fast service. Caterham had services to Victoria until the 2018 timetable change, and Tattenham Corner also did at peak times, but these were all lost in 2018.

2tph London Bridge to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Norwood Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)
Only change is an added Norwood Junction call to retain connectivity to the Overground.

2tph Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner (Clapham Jct, East Croydon, South Croydon, Purley Oaks, Purley, train divides then all stations)

To replace the old services north of Croydon, divert the Caterham service from Selhurst to West Croydon and terminate there. No replacement is needed for the London Bridge to Coulsdon Town service.

The peak services from Victoria to Caterham & Tattenham Corner stopped because of the Covid timetables, they won't be returning. Given Southern are losing the 455s units from the May timetable change where do you propose the rolling stock comes from for an all day service to Victoria?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The peak services from Victoria to Caterham & Tattenham Corner stopped because of the Covid timetables, they won't be returning. Given Southern are losing the 455s units from the May timetable change where do you propose the rolling stock comes from for an all day service to Victoria?

This is the realistic answer.

 

[London Trains]

I do agree with those points and it would probably be better to look at the idea again when and if Windmill Bridge Junction and East Croydon are rebuilt, allowing the fast to slow movement to be improved and East Croydon able to terminate some services. Also by that point the stock issues should be solved.

A much simpler idea (which shouldnt require extra units) is to switch the Victoria to Sutton via Norbury, London Bridge to Caterham via Streatham and Victoria to West Croydon via Crystal Palace services to:

2tph Victoria to Caterham via Selhurst (all stations)
2tph Victoria to Sutton via Crystal Palace
2tph London Bridge to West Croydon via Streatham

 

[JonathanH]

With the very slow and pointless (due to the existence of the fasts) services from Caterham and Coulsdon Town to London Bridge, would it not make sense to replace them with a Victoria fast service that divides at Purley, similar to the London Bridge fast service.

No. Caterham and Coulsdon Town are just convenient terminating points for slow services to East Croydon that avoid unnecessary occupation of the platforms there.

An all day Victoria to Caterham / Tattenham Corner fast would primarily move fresh air for most of the day, much as the London Bridge one does.

I do agree with those points and it would probably be better to look at the idea again when and if Windmill Bridge Junction and East Croydon are rebuilt, allowing the fast to slow movement to be improved and East Croydon able to terminate some services. Also by that point the stock issues should be solved.

That would seem very unlikely to ever happen now. The stock issues are resolved - less stock is now required to transport the reduced number of passengers.

There is no justification for Victoria to Caterham fasts even if the Windmill Bridge works ever happened.

A much simpler idea (which shouldnt require extra units) is to switch the Victoria to Sutton via Norbury, London Bridge to Caterham via Streatham and Victoria to West Croydon via Crystal Palace services to:

2tph Victoria to Caterham via Selhurst (all stations)
2tph Victoria to Sutton via Crystal Palace
2tph London Bridge to West Croydon via Streatham

Do the timings match up? The whole point of the Tulse Hill services running to Caterham was to match up 8 car platforms with an 8 car terminus and 10 car platforms with a 10 car terminus. Obviously the 10 car railway is now no longer required so different patterns may be possible but I imagine the Thameslink paths will go on the chart first.

Splitting and attaching is really not that reliable at the best of times. So having 4tph splitting and attaching at Purley is really not advisable and there is a goal to try and reduce as much splitting/attaching as possible.

Having 4tph splitting at Purley in the pre-Covid peak timetable resulted in significant delays to the Redhill line at times of service perturbation if there was a queue of trains needing to split or overflow onto platform 4. (If it were to ever resume, there ought to be a refuge siding for trains waiting for platform 6 at Purley where the current dead end siding is but I can't see such a thing ever being funded.)

If the terminating facility at Caterham or Coulsdon Town wasn't so useful, I do wonder whether at off-peak times, Caterham and Tattenham Corner should both be served simply by shuttles to Purley (but a train on the Redhill corridor would then have to serve Purley Oaks and South Croydon).

 

[43074]

2tph Victoria to Caterham via Selhurst (all stations)
2tph Victoria to Sutton via Crystal Palace
2tph London Bridge to West Croydon via Streatham

This is the pattern which ran before May 2018, which problem are you trying to solve?

There is no justification for Victoria to Caterham fasts even if the Windmill Bridge works ever happened.

In fairness they ran at peak times before Covid and were popular services, there is local discontent at them not returning so it's not as black and white as that.

Do the timings match up? The whole point of the Tulse Hill services running to Caterham was to match up 8 car platforms with an 8 car terminus and 10 car platforms with a 10 car terminus. Obviously the 10 car railway is now no longer required so different patterns may be possible but I imagine the Thameslink paths will go on the chart first.

The Selhurst corridor is still very busy and even in the middle of the various lockdowns had 10 cars booked on certain peak trains (to accommodate demand not just for social distancing), your assertion that the '10 car railway is now no longer required' isn't accurate at all.