First Greater Glasgow

[Jordan Adam]

It would be interesting to find out if a mid life battery replacement is planned for the EnviroEV's or not?. Personally, I think there will have to be at some point if First intend on the EV's having a similar lifespan to a standard diesel Enviro. If the range on them is already poor that isn't going to improve over time. However, if the plan is to replace the batteries in about 7-8 years time that should rectify most of the issues mentioned above due to advances in battery/charge point technology in that period of time. The most modern diesels will probably still be in service for the next 8-10 years so those should be able to cover the shortfall in the meantime where necessary.

This has already been considered. In theory the savings from the cost of electricity vs diesel and the lower running costs of a EV bus overall make up for the cost of midlife battery replacement. When placing the order First did also consider going for buses with opportunity charging (Like the Volvo 7900Es in Kilmarnock with Stagecoach) however the argument against them was that when it comes to battery longevity it's better to have a vehicle with higher battery capacity/range and charge it once per day than it is to have a bus with a smaller battery/less range and be topping it up constantly throughout the day.

I agree with supporting Scottish firms but if they are seemingly unable to supply what was wanted maybe they do need to look elsewhere.

I do think First were likely swayed towards ADL since their buses are UK built. It is important to supported British companies as much as possible, however to me it seems backwards to go with product purely on the fact it's UK built when there's other products on the market from other counties which are vastly superior.

Maybe ADL will be able to supply bigger or more powerful batteries in the future

This won't be possible in the deckers due to weight limitations. The issue with range does affect deckers far more than it does single deckers. In the real world the double deck Enviro400EVs seem to be averaging a range of around 120-130 miles, in contrast a single deck Yutong E12 can do 250-300 miles which is more than enough to last a full day on a city network.

First were already aware of the range issue which is why routes are not being converted to 100% EV operation, diesels will and are still be allocated to the longest duties for now.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

This has already been considered. In theory the savings from the cost of electricity vs diesel and the lower running costs of a EV bus overall make up for the cost of midlife battery replacement. When placing the order First did also consider going for buses with opportunity charging (Like the Volvo 7900Es in Kilmarnock with Stagecoach) however the argument against them was that when it comes to battery longevity it's better to have a vehicle with higher battery capacity/range and charge it once per day than it is to have a bus with a smaller battery/less range and be topping it up constantly throughout the day.

I do think First were likely swayed towards ADL since their buses are UK built. It is important to supported British companies as much as possible, however to me it seems backwards to go with product purely on the fact it's UK built when there's other products on the market from other counties which are vastly superior.

This won't be possible in the deckers due to weight limitations. The issue with range does affect deckers far more than it does single deckers. In the real world the double deck Enviro400EVs seem to be averaging a range of around 120-130 miles, in contrast a single deck Yutong E12 can do 250-300 miles which is more than enough to last a full day on a city network.

First were already aware of the range issue which is why routes are not being converted to 100% EV operation, diesels will and are still be allocated to the longest duties for now.

That seems ludicrous!

 

[Tom Gallacher]

This has already been considered. In theory the savings from the cost of electricity vs diesel and the lower running costs of a EV bus overall make up for the cost of midlife battery replacement. When placing the order First did also consider going for buses with opportunity charging (Like the Volvo 7900Es in Kilmarnock with Stagecoach) however the argument against them was that when it comes to battery longevity it's better to have a vehicle with higher battery capacity/range and charge it once per day than it is to have a bus with a smaller battery/less range and be topping it up constantly throughout the day.

I do think First were likely swayed towards ADL since their buses are UK built. It is important to supported British companies as much as possible, however to me it seems backwards to go with product purely on the fact it's UK built when there's other products on the market from other counties which are vastly superior.

This won't be possible in the deckers due to weight limitations. The issue with range does affect deckers far more than it does single deckers. In the real world the double deck Enviro400EVs seem to be averaging a range of around 120-130 miles, in contrast a single deck Yutong E12 can do 250-300 miles which is more than enough to last a full day on a city network.

First were already aware of the range issue which is why routes are not being converted to 100% EV operation, diesels will and are still be allocated to the longest duties for now.

Where are the ADL bodied BYD chassis built?

 

[83G/84D]

Sorry if this is off topic for this thread but I am a bit confused!

I have been to Govan today and saw a orange Solo registration YJ65 EFP. It was carrying First bus names and fleet number 53760. It had West Coast Motors legals and the driver was wearing a Glasgow Citybus jumper. It was on service 49.

Not being local it had me wondering what was going on, can anyone explain please?!

 

[lastbus]

Sorry if this is off topic for this thread but I am a bit confused!

I have been to Govan today and saw a orange Solo registration YJ65 EFP. It was carrying First bus names and fleet number 53760. It had West Coast Motors legals and the driver was wearing a Glasgow Citybus jumper. It was on service 49.

Not being local it had me wondering what was going on, can anyone explain please?!

They are operating this service on behalf of First Glasgow.

 

[83G/84D]

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

,

I am a total anateur here so will take criticism fair or otherwise but why did First buy so many vehicles from ADL if they appear from what I read here not entirely suitable for what was needed? I agree with supporting Scottish firms but if they are seemingly unable to supply what was wanted maybe they do need to look elsewhere. Maybe ADL will be able to supply bigger or more powerful batteries in the future or technology will allow for smaller sized batteries which can supply the necessary power to last all day without needing to take buses off the road to recharge the battery?

An ADL 200/400 EV keeps jobs in the uk, much of the chassis is constructed by BYD in china, ADL is no longer a UK owned company either.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

The issue is - wouldn’t it need to be high power charging points so it could give a super charge. I don’t imagine much could be done in such a short turn around of about 10 minutes. Also what happens if there is delays etc.

There's definitely high power capacity at Buchanan st as SPT charge cars there and the installation in to more stands and terminus points could be funded by Scot gov

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

There's definitely high power capacity at Buchanan st as SPT charge cars there and the installation in to more stands and terminus points could be funded by Scot gov

No where near the potential that opp-charging needs, usually between 150 upto 450kw of charging power can be achieved, extra equipment would undoubtedly be needed.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

An ADL 200/400 EV keeps jobs in the uk, much of the chassis is constructed by BYD in china, ADL is no longer a UK owned company either.

Given that ADL do not currently (although there are plans in place) build the chassis I wonder how much, if any, input they have in the design capabilities. Also, when they do not build the chassis why is it referred to as an "ADL" bus.

 

[Jordan Adam]

An ADL 200/400 EV keeps jobs in the uk, much of the chassis is constructed by BYD in china, ADL is no longer a UK owned company either.

The BYD chassis for the UK market are built at the factory in Komárom, Hungary.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

No where near the potential that opp-charging needs, usually between 150 upto 450kw of charging power can be achieved, extra equipment would undoubtedly be needed.

There should be govt funding for this type of work and equipment and if it's installed in multiple places it won't need to be the highest power

 

[GusB]

Okay, I think it's time to steer the discussion back towards First Glasgow specifically. There are other threads to discuss the merits of EV technology and specific manufacturers.

 

[Joerf21]

Cant understand first glasgow built up the one services with new buses, and it was a great with the new passenger level, now it seems they want to run it down with putting older buses on their routes, very strange

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Cant understand first glasgow built up the one services with new buses, and it was a great with the new passenger level, now it seems they want to run it down with putting older buses on their routes, very strange

Pre-Covid there was talk of 'the One' services seeing new E400MMCs. I recall the route being really busy so deckers would have been a good call.

I’ve not travelled post-Covid but from the buses I’ve seen around the express way the loadings don’t look anywhere near what they were. I would have thought some newer E200MMCs could have been cascaded from elsewhere on to the route but looks like First are content with the current E300s for the time being. The native Dumbarton examples will be 10 this year which is crazy. Perhaps the route may see deckers in the future or Yutongs given their range. Only time will tell..

 

[Volvodart]

It is unlikely that, post covid, they would have got authorisation from First Bus to convert a single decker route to new double deckers.

 

[Joerf21]

Pre-Covid there was talk of 'the One' services seeing new E400MMCs. I recall the route being really busy so deckers would have been a good call.

I’ve not travelled post-Covid but from the buses I’ve seen around the express way the loadings don’t look anywhere near what they were. I would have thought some newer E200MMCs could have been cascaded from elsewhere on to the route but looks like First are content with the current E300s for the time being. The native Dumbarton examples will be 10 this year which is crazy. Perhaps the route may see deckers in the future or Yutongs given their range. Only time will tell..

Yes i agree E200 would habe been a bit of upgrade

 

[PaulMc7]

Pre-Covid there was talk of 'the One' services seeing new E400MMCs. I recall the route being really busy so deckers would have been a good call.

I’ve not travelled post-Covid but from the buses I’ve seen around the express way the loadings don’t look anywhere near what they were. I would have thought some newer E200MMCs could have been cascaded from elsewhere on to the route but looks like First are content with the current E300s for the time being. The native Dumbarton examples will be 10 this year which is crazy. Perhaps the route may see deckers in the future or Yutongs given their range. Only time will tell..

They're still pretty busy to be fair and I see a lot of them and use them a fair bit too. The thing that's weird to me is the amount of them in the morning. The Clydebank starts aren't needed in the morning with how many there are. Even the extras from Old Kilpatrick are overkill to be quite honest.

There's usually about 4 or 5 together in the morning when I'm waiting on my work bus and that's before the 1C comes down and joins in

 

[ScotRail158725]

Pre-Covid there was talk of 'the One' services seeing new E400MMCs. I recall the route being really busy so deckers would have been a good call.

I’ve not travelled post-Covid but from the buses I’ve seen around the express way the loadings don’t look anywhere near what they were. I would have thought some newer E200MMCs could have been cascaded from elsewhere on to the route but looks like First are content with the current E300s for the time being. The native Dumbarton examples will be 10 this year which is crazy. Perhaps the route may see deckers in the future or Yutongs given their range. Only time will tell..

Enviro 300s are more suited to the Express work hence why they’re on the ones

 

[Jordan Adam]

Enviro 300s are more suited to the Express work hence why they’re on the ones

I'd rather see the E300s on The One refurbished over E200MMCs being allocated. The E300s are well suited to the motorway work, unlike the E200MMCs.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Must admit a refurb on the E300s would be ideal, Some USBs even at least since it's quite a long end to end journey.

 

[scosutsut]

I'd rather see the E300s on The One refurbished over E200MMCs being allocated. The E300s are well suited to the motorway work, unlike the E200MMCs.

Must admit a refurb on the E300s would be ideal, Some USBs even at least since it's quite a long end to end journey.

Agree E300 refurbs would be the best option.

Why First don't have a consistent mid life refurbishment program is beyond me. Scale it into your costs from the start and you'll probably see a better return in the long run as your assets will last longer as well as be more attractive to your customers.

 

[LT02 NVV]

I'd rather see the E300s on The One refurbished over E200MMCs being allocated. The E300s are well suited to the motorway work, unlike the E200MMCs.

I remember when 67020 (YX68 USV) was on loan to the Dumbarton depot in 2021, I caught it on a 1A Service.

When it got to the Clydeside Expressway, the bus felt a little more slower to accelerate up (when compared to the E300s or Gemini B9TLs) before it was able to get into the good expressway speed.

I need to say, even the B7RLE Eclipses I have been on the 1 Services (they are 69070 SF06 GYG on the 1 {Saturday March 5th 2022}, & 69298 SF04 ZPG [Note: this vehicle was sadly withdrawn a while ago] on the 1D {Saturday October 9th 2021}) managed to be better performers than 67020 in my opinion.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I remember when 67020 (YX68 USV) was on loan to the Dumbarton depot in 2021, I caught it on a 1A Service.

When it got to the Clydeside Expressway, the bus felt a little more slower to accelerate up (when compared to the E300s or Gemini B9TLs) before it was able to get into the good expressway speed.

I need to say, even the B7RLE Eclipses I have been on the 1 Services (they are 69070 SF06 GYG on the 1 {Saturday March 5th 2022}, & 69298 SF04 ZPG [Note: this vehicle was sadly withdrawn a while ago] on the 1D {Saturday October 9th 2021}) managed to be better performers than 67020 in my opinion.

Because RLEs, B9TLs and Enviro 300s are all more powerful buses than Enviro 200 MMCs

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Because RLEs, B9TLs and Enviro 300s are all more powerful buses than Enviro 200 MMCs

Enviro 200 MMC buses are not underpowered, the engines are capable but there operate with software that’s limiting the engines push so to speak.

 

[92002]

Must admit a refurb on the E300s would be ideal, Some USBs even at least since it's quite a long end to end journey.

Although not many passengers go from end to end. There's two basic flows. From Dumbarton to Clydebank. With Clydebank to the City.

They're still pretty busy to be fair and I see a lot of them and use them a fair bit too. The thing that's weird to me is the amount of them in the morning. The Clydebank starts aren't needed in the morning with how many there are. Even the extras from Old Kilpatrick are overkill to be quite honest.

There's usually about 4 or 5 together in the morning when I'm waiting on my work bus and that's before the 1C comes down and joins in

They're still pretty busy to be fair and I see a lot of them and use them a fair bit too. The thing that's weird to me is the amount of them in the morning. The Clydebank starts aren't needed in the morning with how many there are. Even the extras from Old Kilpatrick are overkill to be quite honest.

There's usually about 4 or 5 together in the morning when I'm waiting on my work bus and that's before the 1C comes down and joins in

Happens most of th e Day. With the two basic flows. From Dumbarton to Clydebank along with Clydebank to the City. Would be ideal for EVs and split the two flows to reduce the mileage.

 

[PaulMc7]

Happens most of th e Day. With the two basic flows. From Dumbarton to Clydebank along with Clydebank to the City. Would be ideal for EVs and split the two flows to reduce the mileage.

Another 206 like service could be introduced between Dumbarton and Balloch to be fair but I don't know how you'd route it to cover parts of the 1 and 1A.

The 1B could be split too at Dumbarton like it was early during Covid times. I can't imagine the loadings are that great because of the train either.

Creating a timetable that works would be hard too I guess but splitting them would take the pain away from passengers from Dumbarton to Balloch/Helensburgh who need to suffer with the traffic issues from Glasgow to Dumbarton.

First should realistically be looking at adjusting routes to cover more with less buses given the driver shortage is very rampant still but no changes seem to be coming at all. I noticed with the Lanarkshire changes there's a bit of cutting during the day but hitting top frequencies quicker. I think that's needed across the board given how many buses are still missing.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Enviro 200 MMC buses are not underpowered, the engines are capable but there operate with software that’s limiting the engines push so to speak.

The engines in them are 1/3rd the size of those in the E300s (Quite literally...) and have 100BHP less than the B7RLEs. Not to mention the E200MMCs are 4 speed whereas the B7RLEs/E300s are 6 speed. When fitted with an Allisons box the Cummins ISB 4cyl engine is a capable unit, but with Voith it's hopeless imo. Mechanical aspects aside the E300s are just far more spacious for a longer journey such as on "The One".

Why First don't have a consistent mid life refurbishment program is beyond me. Scale it into your costs from the start and you'll probably see a better return in the long run as your assets will last longer as well as be more attractive to your customers.

I fully agree, it boggles me too why First don't do this as a "standard practice" sort of thing, then again their repaint program can hardly be regarded as consistent either, especially when you have vehicles getting multiple repaints in short periods of time meanwhile other vehicles have often gone over a decade without a repaint. Ideally a bus should at the very least be getting a retrim when it is repainted, that way you can kill two birds with one stone since the vehicle is off the road anyway.

 

[GusB]

The engines in them are 1/3rd the size of those in the E300s (Quite literally...)

I assume you mean 2/3 the size - ie, four cylinders instead of six. If it was 1/3 it would only have two cylinders, which would make them very underpowered!

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

McGills 200 MMC vehicles accelerate noticeably better than the First Glasgow equivalents, both run on the 180hp of the same engine through a 4speed Voith.

There more happening here than simple engine size, the gearboxes number of gears or even the weight of the vehicles.