No LNR service between Crewe and Liverpool, evening of 29/3

[AndrewE]

Arrived at Lime St 1640 today to find the 1705 to Brum cancelled (not for the first time.) Asked the Avanti staff "is the 1647 going to stop at Crewe instead then?" Answer: "certainly not, we are a different company." They just don't see that people will either go by train, or if the railway lets them down they will go by road in future. Both "companies" are being paid to run the trains by the government.

Since then all the rest of the LNR trains have been cancelled, so no service at all after 1605 for intermediate stations all evening. I know there are problems in the W Midlands, but it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to get their staff to and from Wolves to work the services from there (assuming they come from Brum.)

Before we left on the 1747 Avanti "service" to Euston the guard announced firmly that there was NO ticket acceptance in place for Northern or LNR-only tickets, you would be excessed up to the basic fare for your journey.

It's no way to encourage people to keep handing over money to the railway...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Seemingly yet another example of a TOC doing what it "reasonably can", to assist someone to complete their journey, this following disruption.

 

[yorkie]

Since then all the rest of the LNR trains have been cancelled, so no service at all after 1605 for intermediate stations all evening. I know there are problems in the W Midlands, but it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to get their staff to and from Wolves to work the services from there (assuming they come from Brum.)

Before we left on the 1747 Avanti "service" to Euston the guard announced firmly that there was NO ticket acceptance in place for Northern or LNR-only tickets, you would be excessed up to the basic fare for your journey.

If enough people were to get together in one coach and make it clear they were not paying an excess/additional fare, I think Avanti would have no realistic alternative but to lump it. I'd be stating politely but firmly what the firm's obligations are under the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[Watershed]

Arrived at Lime St 1640 today to find the 1705 to Brum cancelled (not for the first time.) Asked the Avanti staff "is the 1647 going to stop at Crewe instead then?" Answer: "certainly not, we are a different company." They just don't see that people will either go by train, or if the railway lets them down they will go by road in future. Both "companies" are being paid to run the trains by the government.

Since then all the rest of the LNR trains have been cancelled, so no service at all after 1605 for intermediate stations all evening. I know there are problems in the W Midlands, but it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to get their staff to and from Wolves to work the services from there (assuming they come from Brum.)

Before we left on the 1747 Avanti "service" to Euston the guard announced firmly that there was NO ticket acceptance in place for Northern or LNR-only tickets, you would be excessed up to the basic fare for your journey.

It's no way to encourage people to keep handing over money to the railway...

With the cancellation of several LNR services leading to anticipated delays of more than an hour, it's highly likely that LNR were obliged to arrange ticket acceptance (or, if necessary, buy brand new tickets) for anyone who for example held an LNR only Advance.

The most charitable interpretation of the Avanti TM's announcement is that they were unaware of the extent of the cancellations and genuinely believed they were acting correctly. Of course there is little or no initial, let alone recurring, training on the rights that passengers having during disruption.

And yes, I agree it's poor that LNR haven't managed to get anything to run to Liverpool since this afternoon. Their Liverpool services are crewed by Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Crewe depots, some of whom will also sign the diversionary route via Bescot and Aston.

Whilst I'm sure some units and crew will still be out of position, it really shouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for them to get something up and running, even if that's just one unit shuttling between Crewe and Liverpool for the rest of the day. I suspect that's not happened because their Control will likely be overwhelmed by the level of disruption, not that that is really an "excuse".

 

[STINT47]

The problem is how do you define reasonable?

Avanti probably feel that as LNR can arrange a alternative service via a replacement train or bus it's not unreasonable for them to refuse to help.

You do also have to consider the commercial side. Avant get no money from a TOC specific fare plus by denying people travel they are likely to boost their income, people will upgrade to a any permitted ticket both todayand inthe future. Whilst it allultimatley goes to the government I image each TOC has revenue targets to hit

 

[yorkie]

You do also have to consider the commercial side. Avant get no money from a TOC specific fare plus by denying people travel they are likely to boost their income, people will upgrade to a any permitted ticket both todayand inthe future. Whilst it allultimatley goes to the government I image each TOC has revenue targets to hit

Well, you hit the nail on the head there!

But the commercial side is not the customers' problem, nor does it affect the rights afforded by the NRCoT.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is how do you define reasonable?

Avanti probably feel that as LNR can arrange a alternative service via a replacement train or bus it's not unreasonable for them to refuse to help.

You do also have to consider the commercial side. Avant get no money from a TOC specific fare plus by denying people travel they are likely to boost their income, people will upgrade to a any permitted ticket both todayand inthe future. Whilst it allultimatley goes to the government I image each TOC has revenue targets to hit

West Midlands Trains are obliged to organise alternative transport. It is up to them to decide how this is done however. The difficulty of the situation is that if there's nobody at the station to ask for help, because everyone just tells you they're from a different company and cannot advise you, how do you get in touch with West Midlands Trains to find out what they're doing about it?

You could try calling their customer service number or direct messaging them on twitter. However, if the customer has tried one of those options, and also tried speaking to the station staff, then it's fairly clear that there's no contact possible. If there's no alternative train service or road transport is available, then it's very obviously unreasonable not to simply board the competitor's train, because you need to act in a way that mitigates your losses. The new fare for the Avanti West Coast service will be payable by West Midlands Trains and far lower than the compensation due if, for example, you took a taxi. The trouble is that reclaiming the money later for a new fare is deliberately made difficult.

I see that East Midlands Railway and Northern are accepting London Northwestern Railway's passengers between Liverpool Lime Street and Liverpool South Parkway. No further travel advice is given.

Edit: actually, if you click through, on www.lnr.uk you can eventually find this:

Option 3: Emergency Rail Replacement Transport...
we have requested Rail Replacement transport between Liverpool South Parkway and Crewe.

Very poor really. It seems passengers are expected to travel on an EMR or Northern train to Liverpool South Parkway, from where there may or may not be replacement road transport. This information is very buried too.

 

[philthetube]

If there are no trains from Crewe and no WMT staff doesn't the obligation fall on Avanti's shoulders.

 

[Starmill]

If there are no trains from Crewe and no WMT staff doesn't the obligation fall on Avanti's shoulders.

Clearly yes; if nothing has been arranged and Avanti West Coast have a train that's running and there's some space left on it.

 

[furlong]

"Different company" isn't a permissible reason. Nor is lack of what they call "ticket acceptance". At times of significant disruption, the companies already agreed to carry each others' passengers and make additional stops without compensation or the need for additional formalities through the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement:

10-2 1 Obligation to carry
(b)If any event occurs which is capable of affecting two or more trains of an Operator and is likely to result in passengers who are using or wish to use those trains being delayed by more than an hour, every other Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to enable the passenger to complete his journey on its trains at no extra charge.

With some caveats:

(2) Exception
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above only applies if the affected Operator could not reasonably have been expected to make alternative arrangements to prevent the passengers referred to in that sub-Clause being delayed by more than an hour, having regard to the length of any notice it had of the event which affected its train(s).

(3) Additional services
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above does not require an Operator to run additional trains.

(4) Additional stops
The obligation in sub-Clause (1)(b) above does not require an Operator to make additional stops at Stations if:-
(a) it is not entitled to do so; or
(b) to make such stops would cause a significant disruption to its passengers or to its own commercial arrangements.

and without compensation

(5) Compensation
(a) An Operator which carries passengers pursuant to sub-Clause (1) above will not receive any compensation for doing so unless the delay referred to in that sub-Clause continues for more than 48 hours.

 

[philthetube]

Clearly yes; if nothing has been arranged and Avanti West Coast have a train that's running and there's some space left on it.

Space is irrelevant, as I understand it they are not allowed to leave passengers stranded.

 

[Ianigsy]

The ticket acceptance between Avanti and LNR/WMT looks decidedly frosty - between New Street and International in one direction only and between New Street and Wolverhampton. I suspect LNR’s Control will have prioritised the afternoon peak service out of Birmingham to prevent New Street from becoming overcrowded.

Unfortunately my friend who commutes from Hartford to Liverpool is off work at the moment, but it would be interesting to know how passengers for Hartford, Winsford and Crewe were meant to get where they were going- Merseyrail to Chester and then either Northern to Greenbank or TfW to Crewe?

 

[C96]

The problem is how do you define reasonable?

Avanti probably feel that as LNR can arrange a alternative service via a replacement train or bus it's not unreasonable for them to refuse to help.

You do also have to consider the commercial side. Avant get no money from a TOC specific fare plus by denying people travel they are likely to boost their income, people will upgrade to a any permitted ticket both todayand inthe future. Whilst it allultimatley goes to the government I image each TOC has revenue targets to hit

Why should one government TOC have to pay added expense for a replacement bus when the gov is already paying for another TOC which serves that route?

Seems infighting and a “not my problem” approach, so long as their brand isn’t affected, whilst the overall brand of the railway is tarnished.

 

[Kite159]

.

Why should one government TOC have to pay added expense for a replacement bus when the gov is already paying for another TOC which serves that route?

Seems infighting and a “not my problem” approach, so long as their brand isn’t affected, whilst the overall brand of the railway is tarnished.

And carrying passengers for Runcorn/Crewe will allow any passengers for the stations in between to use the replacement buses not to overload them with end to end passengers.

But remember the railways are 'putting passengers first'

 

[Starmill]

Space is irrelevant, as I understand it they are not allowed to leave passengers stranded.

Space is potentially relevant if there's insufficient capacity for everyone to board, as is common when major unplanned disruption occurs.

The ticket acceptance between Avanti and LNR/WMT looks decidedly frosty - between New Street and International in one direction only and between New Street and Wolverhampton. I suspect LNR’s Control will have prioritised the afternoon peak service out of Birmingham to prevent New Street from becoming overcrowded.

Unfortunately my friend who commutes from Hartford to Liverpool is off work at the moment, but it would be interesting to know how passengers for Hartford, Winsford and Crewe were meant to get where they were going- Merseyrail to Chester and then either Northern to Greenbank or TfW to Crewe?

Neither Merseyrail nor Transport for Wales are listed as accepting tickets.

 

[507020]

And carrying passengers for Runcorn/Crewe will allow any passengers for the stations in between to use the replacement buses not to overload them with end to end passengers.

But remember the railways are 'putting passengers first'

Avanti services from Liverpool - Euston should all stop at Runcorn and Crewe shouldn’t they, as well as Stafford, so why wouldn’t they allow passengers travelling there to board their train, barring WMT only tickets?

Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford need another service serving them, e.g. one from Warrington Bank Quay, which would give passengers some prospect of changing in Warrington, rather than being stranded of the hourly Lime Street - Birmingham is cancelled.

 

[Watershed]

Avanti services from Liverpool - Euston should all stop at Runcorn and Crewe shouldn’t they, as well as Stafford, so why wouldn’t they allow passengers travelling there to board their train, barring WMT only tickets?

There are a few which have non-standard calling patterns, though they do all stop at Runcorn. WMT would be obliged to make arrangements to allow WMT only ticket holders to board these services, if it is the fastest route to get to their destination and they would otherwise face a delay of more than an hour.

Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford need another service serving them, e.g. one from Warrington Bank Quay, which would give passengers some prospect of changing in Warrington, rather than being stranded of the hourly Lime Street - Birmingham is cancelled.

As much as this would be desirable in many ways, there is no chance of services being created or extended purely to cater for the possibility of other trains being cancelled. Each service needs to stand on its own two feet.

 

[trover]

VT is obliged to offer help when there’s no more LM services on the same day according to NRCoT. VT is the TOC in position which could reasonably offer help. If VT train has departed NT should have offered help as it manages the ticket office of Lime St.

 

[507020]

There are a few which have non-standard calling patterns, though they do all stop at Runcorn. WMT would be obliged to make arrangements to allow WMT only ticket holders to board these services, if it is the fastest route to get to their destination and they would otherwise face a delay of more than an hour.

If boarding the following 17:47 Avanti service with a stop at Crewe would result in a wait of exactly an hour, what would they have to do then?

As much as this would be desirable in many ways, there is no chance of services being created or extended purely to cater for the possibility of other trains being cancelled. Each service needs to stand on its own two feet.

A Crewe - Preston/Blackpool North all stops via Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows would likely stand up on its own and provide a lot of currently missing connectivity options, however as I understand it more of a problem is capacity on the WCML between Wigan and Euxton where it needs to be requadrupled.

 

[Watershed]

If boarding the following 17:47 Avanti service with a stop at Crewe would result in a wait of exactly an hour, what would they have to do then?

The issue at hand is the cancellation of all LNR services; in the circumstances, there are no realistic alternatives which would reduce the delay to an hour or less. The suggestion of taking a train to Liverpool South Parkway and then a replacement coach that may (or may not) turn up is highly unlikely to result in a delay of an hour or less.

Where a train is cancelled, this rule (which stems from Article 16(b) of the PRO) is highly likely to apply unless there is another train from the same operator running within an hour.

A Crewe - Preston/Blackpool North all stops via Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows would likely stand up on its own and provide a lot of currently missing connectivity options, however as I understand it more of a problem is capacity on the WCML between Wigan and Euxton where it needs to be requadrupled.

I could certainly see the attraction in that. But I think any further discussion of such a service would require its own thread in the Speculative Ideas section; feel free to create one and quote this post if you want.

 

[507020]

The issue at hand is the cancellation of all LNR services; in the circumstances, there are no realistic alternatives which would reduce the delay to an hour or less. The suggestion of taking a train to Liverpool South Parkway and then a replacement coach that may (or may not) turn up is highly unlikely to result in a delay of an hour or less.

Where a train is cancelled, this rule (which stems from Article 16(b) of the PRO) is highly likely to apply unless there is another train from the same operator running within an hour.

But when the main stations on the cancelled services are served by other operators (Merseyrail to South Parkway and Avanti to Runcorn and Crewe which just leaves the problem of the intermediate stations) why can they not be forced to facilitate the otherwise disrupted journeys? Them being a different company doesn’t change the fact that they could be running the next and all further trains to a destination which passengers intend to travel to and failure to stop at a station as large as Crewe which they normally serve in such instance doesn’t make sense at all.

I could certainly see the attraction in that. But I think any further discussion of such a service would require its own thread in the Speculative Ideas section; feel free to create one and quote this post if you want.

Yes there are many attractions, one being that in this instance, passengers for Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford could have travelled to Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows or Warrington for a connecting train, rather than being stranded, which is relevant here, more so than Avanti serving them which would be unusual for them.

 

[Starmill]

Them being a different company doesn’t change the fact that they could be running the next and all further trains to a destination which passengers intend to travel to and failure to stop at a station as large as Crewe which they normally serve in such instance doesn’t make sense at all.

As has been explained above, the 1647 service from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston does not normally serve Crewe. Avanti West Coast cannot really be compelled to make an additional stop if they don't want to for good commercial reasons, as pointed out above by @furlong.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Just to give some clarity on what happened regarding these services yesterday.

Wires down just outside New St North Tunnel/Monument Lane area, no trains could arrive or leave Birmingham New Street in that direction.

New St drivers do not sign Birmingham diversion routes (don't ask) so could not work the trains due to form Lime St services as they needed to go via Bescot then to either Wolves via Portobello (which I did) or towards Penkridge via Bushbury.

This meant only Crewe drivers were able to work these units, most of which were running Crewe to Stafford shuttles via Stoke (only Crewe Drivers and Conductors sign).

It was highly regrettable that the Lime St trains were pulled, but the priority was considered New St - Crewe, and as the block at New St North was listed as until end of day when I booked off, clearly that meant those drivers who usually work these trains were not able to.

I should add, why New St drivers weren't able to be passed up to Wolves and work trains via Madeley I am not sure, certainly would have been a better situation for all, but alas that clearly was decided against by either control or LLC possibly.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are issues discussed above which will hopefully be addressed by GBR;
Firstly, where disruption occurs other TOCs operating over the same route should be obliged to accept all passengers, without quibbling or needing prior agreement, and where reasonable special stops should be made at key locations, eg Crewe as per the 1647 ex Lime St.
Secondly, Drivers must be trained for reasonable (not necessarily all) diversionary routes; I have to say I am astonished that some based at New St can only work their booked routes.

 

[Watershed]

Firstly, where disruption occurs other TOCs operating over the same route should be obliged to accept all passengers, without quibbling or needing prior agreement, and where reasonable special stops should be made at key locations, eg Crewe as per the 1647 ex Lime St.

Indeed that's already the case under the TSA (though this is not a document which the public can rely on, as they're aren't a party to the contract). But there is no reason why Avanti should have been telling people there is no ticket acceptance.

Secondly, Drivers must be trained for reasonable (not necessarily all) diversionary routes; I have to say I am astonished that some based at New St can only work their booked routes.

To be fair, New Street is a big depot and I can appreciate that not everyone is going to have diversionary route knowledge, as there are a lot of different possible routes around Birmingham. However, I would certainly expect drivers in the Liverpool link(s) to sign diversionary routes such as Bescot. Perhaps I'm being too optimistic there!

And even if that wasn't possible, there is no reason they couldn't have passed drivers over to Stafford/Crewe via Tamworth, Lichfield or Rugeley. Or used Crewe or Wolverhampton drivers - some of whom would have been 'freed up' by the cancellation of services.

 

[yorksrob]

This could all be sorted out relatively easily by the Government, but it is only interested in revenue generation, not the day to day running of passenger operations.

 

[C96]

Has either of the TOCs stated what should have happened retrospectively with hindsight? And the learnings from this?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Has either of the TOCs stated what should have happened retrospectively with hindsight? And the learnings from this?

It will certainly be raised by LLC and SCCC at monthly meetings as WMT clearly focused too much on West Mids zone (NX ticket acceptance in place) at the detriment to WCML.

The New St drivers not signing diversions has been raised multiple times, seems it's a brick wall unfortunately.

 

[Starmill]

It was highly regrettable that the Lime St trains were pulled, but the priority was considered New St - Crewe, and as the block at New St North was listed as until end of day when I booked off, clearly that meant those drivers who usually work these trains were not able to.

I should add, why New St drivers weren't able to be passed up to Wolves and work trains via Madeley I am not sure, certainly would have been a better situation for all, but alas that clearly was decided against by either control or LLC possibly.

I think that people's criticisms are less based around the fact that the service between Crewe and Liverpool couldn't run at all, and more based around the facts that a) communication from LNR/WMR was very poor and b) the services were withdrawn but the evidence suggests this was without due regard to arranging alternative travel. Most customers would agree with your analysis I think that the situation was very difficult and unexpected, and the outcomes very undesirable. However I think they would rightly also want better customer care following that.

 

[AndrewE]

I think that people's criticisms are less based around the fact that the service between Crewe and Liverpool couldn't run at all, and more based around the facts that a) communication from LNR/WMR was very poor and b) the services were withdrawn but the evidence suggests this was without due regard to arranging alternative travel. Most customers would agree with your analysis I think that the situation was very difficult and unexpected, and the outcomes very undesirable. However I think they would rightly also want better customer care following that.

Actually, services couldn't run between Brum and Wolves, but the company was set up in such a way that they couldn't respond or adapt in any intelligent way. Ther was also absolutely no attempt at any kind of "customer service" - and other parts of the railway at Lime St acted as though they couldn't give a toss. (caveat: When I saw it - admittedly at the start of the problem.)