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Printed publicity - still necessary in the era of digital technology?

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johncrossley

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There's not many spider maps still being updated.

Is there a criteria as to which ones are being updated? There have been quite a few updated in the last 6 months.

but individual timetables are still produced and well enough used (even if online) - why bother when you can just use a journey planner?

I don't see any movement to get rid of online rail route timetables. The Network Rail timetable seems to be a permanent fixture and countries that have long scrapped printed timetables seem to keep them somewhere on their website, albeit sometimes they are hard to find. Route timetables have always have the caveat that they are subject to amendment and so you need to check times on the day. Online route timetables give you a flavour of the service but you can't rely on them unless they amend them constantly, and obviously you need to check real time information at the actual time of travel. Printed bus timetables are even trickier as you cannot be sure if it is the latest timetable. You really need to check online unless you are absolutely sure the times haven't changed, especially if you are not a regular user and so wouldn't have seen any notification of recent changes. Even if the timetable is up-to-date, you still need to check online for short term disruptions. If you have to check online, then you might as well not have had the printed timetable in the first place.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I don't see any movement to get rid of online rail route timetables. The Network Rail timetable seems to be a permanent fixture and countries that have long scrapped printed timetables seem to keep them somewhere on their website, albeit sometimes they are hard to find. Route timetables have always have the caveat that they are subject to amendment and so you need to check times on the day. Online route timetables give you a flavour of the service but you can't rely on them unless they amend them constantly, and obviously you need to check real time information at the actual time of travel. Printed bus timetables are even trickier as you cannot be sure if it is the latest timetable. You really need to check online unless you are absolutely sure the times haven't changed, especially if you are not a regular user and so wouldn't have seen any notification of recent changes. Even if the timetable is up-to-date, you still need to check online for short term disruptions. If you have to check online, then you might as well not have had the printed timetable in the first place.

As this isn't about buses, I've created a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-create-a-bustimes-org-clone-for-rail.230013/
 

Deerfold

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Is there a criteria as to which ones are being updated? There have been quite a few updated in the last 6 months.



I don't see any movement to get rid of online rail route timetables. The Network Rail timetable seems to be a permanent fixture and countries that have long scrapped printed timetables seem to keep them somewhere on their website, albeit sometimes they are hard to find. Route timetables have always have the caveat that they are subject to amendment and so you need to check times on the day. Online route timetables give you a flavour of the service but you can't rely on them unless they amend them constantly, and obviously you need to check real time information at the actual time of travel. Printed bus timetables are even trickier as you cannot be sure if it is the latest timetable. You really need to check online unless you are absolutely sure the times haven't changed, especially if you are not a regular user and so wouldn't have seen any notification of recent changes. Even if the timetable is up-to-date, you still need to check online for short term disruptions. If you have to check online, then you might as well not have had the printed timetable in the first place.
I'm not suggesting getting rid of them. I'm wondering why they're seen as useful, but publicity for buses is frivolous.

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I find bustimes.org very useful. Don't see why a similar autogenerated "traintimes.org" wouldn't be useful too.
I'm sure it would be useful, but I'd hate it to be the only available information.

Bustimes can be useful, but it's less useful when there's several routes serving a section of road, or alternative services going different routes.
 

johncrossley

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I'm not suggesting getting rid of them. I'm wondering why they're seen as useful, but publicity for buses is frivolous.

I didn't think you were suggesting getting rid of them and I don't think many people mind traditional timetables or maps being online whether for bus or train. Whether they should be printed is what people are really debating.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not suggesting getting rid of them. I'm wondering why they're seen as useful, but publicity for buses is frivolous.

The debate is about them being printed. I have no issue with PDF traditional-format timetables being on the operator's website if people find them useful. Even better than PDFs is a bustimes.org style automatic generation, as they're always up to date then.

Journey planners aren't going to go away because Google Maps has one regardless of who else provides one.

I'm sure it would be useful, but I'd hate it to be the only available information.

Agreed.

Bustimes can be useful, but it's less useful when there's several routes serving a section of road, or alternative services going different routes.

Yes, true.
 

Andyh82

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Which areas still do printed timetables? One’s that I am aware of are:

Major Operators - Go North East, East Yorkshire, Transdev Blazefield, Nottingham City Transport, Trent Barton, Cornwall by Kernow, Go Cornwall Bus, Plymouth Citybus, Buses of Somerset, Stagecoach in the Lakes

Councils/PTEs - TfGM

I’m guessing Reading Buses, Southern Vectis, Lothian Buses, Brighton & Hove still do? And Devon County Council? And probably various minor operators too.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think it probably makes sense to have it in areas which have high numbers of tourists, particularly older tourists e.g. the Lakes and the IoW. North Wales too.

In areas where it's all "local buses for local people" much less so. Operators sending printouts by post to anyone who phones up asking for one is probably enough, and if there's an in person enquiry office just have a laser printer attached to the PC there to run them off on demand if anyone asks for one. Most people will use their phone or print their own.
 

Non Multi

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Would Ray Stenning recommend that his colourful publicity be all printed out in mono A4 on 70gsm paper? I suspect not.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would Ray Stenning recommend that his colourful publicity be all printed out in mono A4 on 70gsm paper? I suspect not.

Ray Stenning's opinion is not the be-all and end-all of everything, good though he is at his work.

Timetables produced on demand for those increasingly few people who don't have a smartphone aren't really publicity, they're simple information to be printed as clearly and simply as possible. It could be on a nice company letterhead, I suppose.
 

Deerfold

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I didn't think you were suggesting getting rid of them and I don't think many people mind traditional timetables or maps being online whether for bus or train. Whether they should be printed is what people are really debating.
Until this was split off, the debate was more about whether they should exist at all.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Which areas still do printed timetables? One’s that I am aware of are:

Major Operators - Go North East, East Yorkshire, Transdev Blazefield, Nottingham City Transport, Trent Barton, Cornwall by Kernow, Go Cornwall Bus, Plymouth Citybus, Buses of Somerset, Stagecoach in the Lakes

Councils/PTEs - TfGM

I’m guessing Reading Buses, Southern Vectis, Lothian Buses, Brighton & Hove still do? And Devon County Council? And probably various minor operators too.
West Yorkshire Combined Authority / Metro simply use printouts from either their own or the operators websites whereas in South Yorkshire your forced to "go online". Compass Travel (Sussex) Ltd of Worthing still print their excellent timetable book.

Devon County Council still produces their range of six timetable books and are the only source of printed timetable information in Devon since Stagecoach threw in the towel on provding any timetables. That said, in Wiltshire the libraries do provide printouts from either Traveline South West or the various operator websites (Stagecoach, Faresaver, Swindon Bus, etc) or whatever Wiltshire Council provide such as this: http://www.coachstyle.uk/upl/Malmesbury Timetable-July 2021 leaflet.pdf which is better than nothing.
 

route101

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West Yorkshire Combined Authority / Metro simply use printouts from either their own or the operators websites whereas in South Yorkshire your forced to "go online". Compass Travel (Sussex) Ltd of Worthing still print their excellent timetable book.

Devon County Council still produces their range of six timetable books and are the only source of printed timetable information in Devon since Stagecoach threw in the towel on provding any timetables. That said, in Wiltshire the libraries do provide printouts from either Traveline South West or the various operator websites (Stagecoach, Faresaver, Swindon Bus, etc) or whatever Wiltshire Council provide such as this: http://www.coachstyle.uk/upl/Malmesbury Timetable-July 2021 leaflet.pdf which is better than nothing.
Not seen any Stagecoach bus timetables for a good few years. First glasgow don't do any timetables, don't think there is any printed timetables in Glasgow unless East Kilbride bus station is open!

Bluestar still print timetables and Metrobus.
 

Tetchytyke

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Not seen any Stagecoach bus timetables for a good few years. First glasgow don't do any timetables, don't think there is any printed timetables in Glasgow unless East Kilbride bus station is open!

Bluestar still print timetables and Metrobus.

Stagecoach, as always, are a mixed bag. In places like Newcastle they offer nothing at all, but at the other end of the spectrum their Lake District timetables are some of the best in the industry.
 

43055

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Which areas still do printed timetables? One’s that I am aware of are:

Major Operators - Go North East, East Yorkshire, Transdev Blazefield, Nottingham City Transport, Trent Barton, Cornwall by Kernow, Go Cornwall Bus, Plymouth Citybus, Buses of Somerset, Stagecoach in the Lakes

Councils/PTEs - TfGM

I’m guessing Reading Buses, Southern Vectis, Lothian Buses, Brighton & Hove still do? And Devon County Council? And probably various minor operators too.
I picked up timetables for Chaserider/Select Bus and Midland Classic timetables last week in Lichfield tourist info. Last time I was in Birmingham National Express West Midlands had a travel shop in New Street which had racks of timetables and maps. First also have timetable books for Dorset and may still do timetables for Worcester, the potteries and Leicester.
 
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Ridercross

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I picked up timetables for Chaserider/Select Bus and Midland Classic timetables last week in Lichfield tourist info. Last time I was in Birmingham National Express West Midlands had a travel shop in New Street which had racks of timetables and maps. First also have timetable books for Dorset and may still do timetables for Worcester, the potteries and Leicester.
It was a Network West Midlands travel shop that was at New Street station, The NXWM one was in Corporation Street. However both of them have now closed down, so there is nowhere in the UK's second most populous city to go for any face to face bus information, let alone printed material.

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miklcct

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I expect a timetable to be printed at every bus stop, listing all the subsequent stops for the routes involved.

If a non-flat-fare system is used, I also expect the fare to be printed as well.

A spider map is also helpful in urban areas.

Technology wise, Google Maps do spider map and I heavily rely on it in unfamiliar places to see if the bus is going in my desired direction.
 

PeterC

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There are two sides to publicity.

1. Keeping people to are considering using your product or service informed. Electronic media are very efficient for this

2. Reaching out to people who aren't even thinking about you. This requires a far more blended approach in which hardcopy plays a major part
 

Ken H

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For finding the times of the 24c bus from near your home, the internet is great. But to plan a day out you need paper timetables and a map.
Also, the internet is rubbish at composite timetables. Take Chapeltown road in Leeds. There are loads of buses from First and Transdev. But there isn't 1 timetable that shows them all.
 

Deerfold

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Do you? I use Realtime Trains and bustimes.org plus PDF maps.
Which still requires those PDF maps to exist.

Whilst I'd love them to available in printed form, too many (such as the OP's original question about the availability of maps in London) no longer exist in any form.
 

miklcct

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Also, the internet is rubbish at composite timetables. Take Chapeltown road in Leeds. There are loads of buses from First and Transdev. But there isn't 1 timetable that shows them all.
Google Maps and bustimes.org can show a departure board. Bustimes.org now even allows entering arbitrary times to the departure board which can now be used for planning day outs.
 

johncrossley

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I expect a timetable to be printed at every bus stop, listing all the subsequent stops for the routes involved.

There is no reason not to do this, and is still the norm in several countries that no longer have printed timetables. Bus stop timetables don't suffer from one of the major difficulties with printed timetables, the problem with timetables being out of date. Although there's a debate whether departure times on their own are sufficient, or whether you should have full timetables. The consensus, especially in urban areas, seems to be departure times only, with maybe some indication of journey time as well. When you have such indication, main stops, rather than every stop, is the norm, although all stops may be possible in urban areas.

In this respect, TfL is probably doing better than the old days, although recent budget cuts sometimes mean that bus stops don't get updated when they should. In the 80s many London bus stops didn't have the service numbers on the flag, now you have the service numbers, name of stop and direction. Actual timetables are vague, generally just showing first and last buses with the frequency, but as mentioned earlier, most London buses are supposed to be spaced evenly rather than sticking to a timetable. In the old days you would get a proper timetable at the bus stop, but they were more necessary due to lower frequency.
 

miklcct

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There is no reason not to do this, and is still the norm in several countries that no longer have printed timetables. Bus stop timetables don't suffer from one of the major difficulties with printed timetables, the problem with timetables being out of date. Although there's a debate whether departure times on their own are sufficient, or whether you should have full timetables. The consensus, especially in urban areas, seems to be departure times only, with maybe some indication of journey time as well. When you have such indication, main stops, rather than every stop, is the norm, although all stops may be possible in urban areas.

In this respect, TfL is probably doing better than the old days, although recent budget cuts sometimes mean that bus stops don't get updated when they should. In the 80s many London bus stops didn't have the service numbers on the flag, now you have the service numbers, name of stop and direction. Actual timetables are vague, generally just showing first and last buses with the frequency, but as mentioned earlier, most London buses are supposed to be spaced evenly rather than sticking to a timetable. In the old days you would get a proper timetable at the bus stop, but they were more necessary due to lower frequency.
In Hong Kong, the information printed at bus stop includes:
- the full route, including every stop along the route (there were some all-stop routes with paper omitted some rural stops in a row, for example, 3 consecutive stops in a village shown as 1 stop, but complaints were launched and now every stop is shown as in urban routes)
- the fare applicable
- the departure times or headway from origin station
- in the past, interchange discounts as well, but as the amount exploded it is now omitted on some routes with only a summary given
with one piece of paper per route (in some circumstances, a group of related routes), nicknamed "rooster paper" because the plate where the paper is placed in looks like a rooster plate. The plate is usually in triangular form fixed around the pole which is rotatable. A gallery how they look like can be found at this article. These are also available to be downloaded as PDFs for some bus companies.

However, compared to Western norm, they don't have the times for individual stops as buses in Hong Kong (only the departure time or headway from the origin station is shown), apart for a few rural routes or circular routes, don't have any timing points except the origin, and the sheer amount of buses in the urban area also make it impractical to have any timing points en-route as dedicated stop space is required to do so, as such bus bunching is very common on a long route or on a route running through congested urban areas.

The information is always kept updated except a fare scale change, when a notice is stuck to show the new fare temporarily until the papers are gradually replaced. The way of updating is simple, just go through the route from the beginning to the end, take down the old one and stuck the new one on, which is done as part of the general bus stop maintenance.
 

GusB

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Bus stop timetables don't suffer from one of the major difficulties with printed timetables, the problem with timetables being out of date.
They do if the timetable has been completely changed, had journeys added or omitted, or if a route is withdrawn completely.

Ultimately it's down to the local authority, bus company or whoever has responsibility to update such information, but often this isn't a priority and it takes a long time to update stop information. I haven't checked the information at my local stop for a while as I know when the hourly bus runs, but I wouldn't be confident that I could rely on it.
 

route101

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Stagecoach, as always, are a mixed bag. In places like Newcastle they offer nothing at all, but at the other end of the spectrum their Lake District timetables are some of the best in the industry.

Yes the Cumbria book is the last Stagecoach timetable I picked up.

Bluestar still produce printed timetables but I feel they are better combined into one book.

Google maps is useful when your on the go but there is a couple of flaws. The operator is not shown, it gives a colour. The route sometimes is marked out as straight line. Also fiddly checking all the different stops on my phone.

I prefer if PDF timetables are online with a map. Not a fan of journey planners, Stagecoach website is set like that. I want to see the bigger picture.
 

Ken H

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...

I prefer if PDF timetables are online with a map. Not a fan of journey planners, Stagecoach website is set like that. I want to see the bigger picture.
yes
But not the Arriva timetable PDF's which are just a dump of their timetable database.
 

londonteacher

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When is the next bus from Harehills Avenue to Queens Arms then?


Showing directions between two destinations

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It took 30 seconds to find the information.
(image is a screenshot from Google Maps showing the journey from Harehills Avenue to Queens Arms)
 
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route101

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yes
But not the Arriva timetable PDF's which are just a dump of their timetable database.
Yes, found that website hard work. The best ones are the system that Transdev, Reading Buses, Metrobus etc use, with a list of services and maps.
 
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