Printed publicity - still necessary in the era of digital technology?

[londonteacher]

Now challenge some random people off the street to find that information.

It was simple. Input the two destinations in to Google Maps.

In response to the question whether printed publicity is necessary or not, the main issue with printed information is that as soon as it is printed it is out of date. For example, this weekend in London any bus route that was disrupted due to protests such as the 453 the printed timetables and route maps were factually incorrect. Apps such as Citymapper and Google Maps were updated with the correct routings and stopping patterns meaning people could make the right choices. A solution could be digital signage that updates like the digital price signs in shops like Amazon Fresh that can be updated remotely. In times of disruption routes and timings can then be updated instantly.

 

[Ken H]

Yes, found that website hard work. The best ones are the system that Transdev, Reading Buses, Metrobus etc use, with a list of services and maps.

The Transdev PDF's are excellent.

 

[Andyh82]

As said before there are two types of people, those who want Google Maps to plan everything and those who want to do it themselves.

Google Maps sometimes needs a layer of common sense applying. My work is about 10 mins walk away from the bus station, and if I ask it to plan a bus journey to work, it’ll plan one journey from home to the bus station, then a wait, then catch another bus to go one stop across the town centre. Unless you are unable to walk, nobody would do this.

 

[Statto]

Yes, found that website hard work. The best ones are the system that Transdev, Reading Buses, Metrobus etc use, with a list of services and maps.

Of all the operators Arriva's site has to be the worst website on the net, (with Stagecoach not far behind), on Arriva site you have to go on to the, buy tickets section, to find out how much the tickets cost, at least the timetables in order that everyone recognises now, not the 1, 10, 100, 110, then 2, 20, 200, format they had them in.

National Express West Midlands (NXWM), is an easy site to navigate, as is Lothian, only thing with NXWM is they don't have maps, Transport For West Midlands publish the maps instead.

 

[PeterC]

As said before there are two types of people, those who want Google Maps to plan everything and those who want to do it themselves.

Google Maps sometimes needs a layer of common sense applying. My work is about 10 mins walk away from the bus station, and if I ask it to plan a bus journey to work, it’ll plan one journey from home to the bus station, then a wait, then catch another bus to go one stop across the town centre. Unless you are unable to walk, nobody would do this.

You forgot about the third type of person who just looks blank when you mention Google maps. From my experience talking to fellow travellers rather than enthusiasts that makes up the majority of bus users

 

[johncrossley]

You forgot about the third type of person who just looks blank when you mention Google maps. From my experience talking to fellow travellers rather than enthusiasts that makes up the majority of bus users

Are non-bus users more likely to have heard of Google Maps?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You forgot about the third type of person who just looks blank when you mention Google maps.

I think pretty much everyone has heard of Google Maps. They may not know you can plan bus travel with it though. And not everyone has a smartphone.

Planning a day out on the buses I love looking at timetables to see how things fit together. But a journey planner is better for the "when's the next bus to the airport?" type questions, which I'd say most transport users are really more likely to ask on a day-to-day basis.

We have pretty good printed material here on the island. Which is just as well as our planners love random route variations. The high frequency service to the airport is either a 1, 2, 11, 12, 1A, 1H, 2A or 12A.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think pretty much everyone has heard of Google Maps. They may not know you can plan bus travel with it though. And not everyone has a smartphone.

Planning a day out on the buses I love looking at timetables to see how things fit together. But a journey planner is better for the "when's the next bus to the airport?" type questions, which I'd say most transport users are really more likely to ask on a day-to-day basis.

We have pretty good printed material here on the island. Which is just as well as our planners love random route variations. The high frequency service to the airport is either a 1, 2, 11, 12, 1A, 1H, 2A or 12A.

I think you're largely correct. I think most folks are aware of Google and their maps but not the ability to search out public transport links via it. Having just returned from "abroad", I relied on Google Maps to get us around but I don't think the better half would've had a scooby (and she's generally pretty savvy). I also feel, but with no empirical evidence, that it is the more enthusiast fraternity that will look at timetables more whilst the average punter will look at a journey planners.... How do I get to X rather than where can I go?

Like you, I do like to plan out a day but that is invariably using the web anyway. However, I can recognise, especially in areas with a strong tourism base, that there are benefits to having printed material and maps.

 

[Deerfold]

It was simple. Input the two destinations in to Google Maps.

In response to the question whether printed publicity is necessary or not, the main issue with printed information is that as soon as it is printed it is out of date. For example, this weekend in London any bus route that was disrupted due to protests such as the 453 the printed timetables and route maps were factually incorrect. Apps such as Citymapper and Google Maps were updated with the correct routings and stopping patterns meaning people could make the right choices. A solution could be digital signage that updates like the digital price signs in shops like Amazon Fresh that can be updated remotely. In times of disruption routes and timings can then be updated instantly.

And when Google maps tells you to pop on an airport bus between Victoria and Baker street and then change? Happily routes you on buses that charge premium fares and don't accept TfL tickets without warning you?

Doesn't have the option to only choose routes that are run by one operator or accept a specific ticket?

 

[londonteacher]

And when Google maps tells you to pop on an airport bus between Victoria and Baker street and then change? Happily routes you on buses that charge premium fares and don't accept TfL tickets without warning you?

Doesn't have the option to only choose routes that are run by one operator or accept a specific ticket?

Can you find an example of that? When I search on Google Maps or Citymapper or the TFL go app none of the above happens.

 

[Deerfold]

Can you find an example of that? When I search on Google Maps or Citymapper or the TFL go app none of the above happens.

I found one, looking just now, that suggested both Megabus and Greenline.

It happens less than it used to as there's fewer express and commuter coaches than there were.

(attached image shows screenshot from Google Maps)

 

[londonteacher]

I found one, looking just now, that suggested both Megabus and Greenline.

It happens less than it used to as there's fewer express and commuter coaches than there were.

(attached image shows screenshot from Google Maps)

Thanks. Valid journeys if tickets are sold from the respective companies. Google is drawing the information from various sources.

TFL are publicising their TFL Go app all across London including in stations, on backs of buses, bus stops.

I am also pretty certain that if a tourist asked nicely they could print information at the reception of their hotel should they prefer the paper version.

Ultimately digital is the way forward, including the reasons I gave previously such as updated in disruption, and people reliant on paper need to update with the times.

 

[Non Multi]

Ultimately digital is the way forward, including the reasons I gave previously such as updated in disruption, and people reliant on paper need to update with the times.

Remind me, which sections of society use buses in general?

Operators, local authorities, transport executives: Abandon those groups at your peril.

 

[GusB]

Operators, local authorities, transport executives: Abandon those groups at your peril.

Care to share where this quote came from?

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks. Valid journeys if tickets are sold from the respective companies. Google is drawing the information from various sources.

You can't buy those tickets from Megabus or Arriva. Megabus don't sell any tickets on board. There's nothing to indicate to the non-expert that you can't use your Oystercard.

 

[londonteacher]

Remind me, which sections of society use buses in general?

Operators, local authorities, transport executives: Abandon those groups at your peril.

In London, all ages use the buses regularly. Buses are not used solely by the older generations like they are anecdotally do in other areas.

You can't buy those tickets from Megabus or Arriva. Megabus don't sell any tickets on board. There's nothing to indicate to the non-expert that you can't use your Oystercard.

Okay, thanks.

Not informing that Oyster Cards are not valid is a Google issue. It’s not an issue on apps such as TFL Go (heavily advertised so tourists will see) or CityMapper.

 

[RT4038]

Remind me, which sections of society use buses in general?

Operators, local authorities, transport executives: Abandon those groups at your peril.

At the peril of what, precisely?

Depends what the agenda is?

 

[Deerfold]

Not informing that Oyster Cards are not valid is a Google issue. It’s not an issue on apps such as TFL Go (heavily advertised so tourists will see) or CityMapper.

I was being told that Google provided all the information you'd need to plan a journey.

Is that not actually the case?

I tried using TfL's journey planner. It didn't find anything for a fairly simple journey. If there was a map I could check, I could find something for myself.

Do I need to work out what the best journey planner to use in each area is? This isn't sounding terribly simple.

 

[Astradyne]

In London, all ages use the buses regularly. Buses are not used solely by the older generations like they are anecdotally do in other areas.


Okay, thanks.

Not informing that Oyster Cards are not valid is a Google issue. It’s not an issue on apps such as TFL Go (heavily advertised so tourists will see) or CityMapper.

But would looking at a paper map tell you this?

 

[Deerfold]

But would looking at a paper map tell you this?

They used to identity routes that didn't accept TfL fares by putting them in a different colour. Long distance coaches weren't usually shown.

 

[johncrossley]

I don't normally use Google Maps for public transport but a lot of people use it simply because it is the most accessible option. If you are using the most popular browser (Chrome) and put in, for example, "Croydon to Bromley", you are presented with journey options without even needing to fire up another app. If that works they are not likely to be bothered to look at maps or timetables in future. It will work the vast majority of the time. They are highly unlikely to come up against 'edge cases'.

In the countries noted for high public transport usage, what is the attitude to maps and timetables? Are passengers more, less, or similarly likely to look at journey planners than in the UK? If they use journey planners, do they use Google Maps, apps from transport authorities or third party apps? From travels around Europe in recent years (before Covid) I don't recall seeing smart travel centres with racks of timetables like you see in major bus stations in places like northern England. The obvious follow on question is whether traditional timetables and maps, whether printed or not, is a significant factor influencing patronage levels? Within the UK it is probably hard to separate it from other factors. For example, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire have loads of nice bus information offices with lots of printed timetables available to be picked up (at least before Covid) whereas London is at the opposite extreme.

 

[Astradyne]

They used to identity routes that didn't accept TfL fares by putting them in a different colour. Long distance coaches weren't usually shown.

So happy to have half the information? What happens if you are more than happy to not use TfL services? Your map is not giving you the complete picture. If you can use Google maps, it is not as though you can not easily check ticket acceptance if so desired. Seems to be people looking for a problem when there is not one.

 

[Deerfold]

So happy to have half the information? What happens if you are more than happy to not use TfL services? Your map is not giving you the complete picture. If you can use Google maps, it is not as though you can not easily check ticket acceptance if so desired. Seems to be people looking for a problem when there is not one.

As I said (and you quoted), operators which didn't accept their tickets were shown on their maps in a different colour. Coaches which didn't allow local journeys were not shown.

I'm not sure how that's giving half the information - it's giving more information than Google about ticket acceptance and not suggesting services they can't catch. I thought it was a problem suggesting services which won't let people catch them for the proposed journey.

Thanks. Valid journeys if tickets are sold from the respective companies. Google is drawing the information from various sources.

You cannot get tickets on the Megabus or 757 for those journeys - that's the problem.

I am also pretty certain that if a tourist asked nicely they could print information at the reception of their hotel should they prefer the paper version.

There is no version of a map to print - that's what we're complaining about. I'm not insisting all map information should be printed out and be available everywhere (though that can be quite good publicity). But it would be really good for it to be available somewhere on the TfL website.

 

[Man of Kent]

You cannot get tickets on the Megabus or 757 for those journeys - that's the problem

According to the Open Data on the Bustimes website, you can on Green Line - £4 single Victoria anywhere as far as Lords Cricket Ground; £5 from Finchley Road to Brent Cross.

Arriva Beds & Bucks 757 Outbound - AD SGL fares – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

 

[Bletchleyite]

In London, all ages use the buses regularly. Buses are not used solely by the older generations like they are anecdotally do in other areas.


Okay, thanks.

Not informing that Oyster Cards are not valid is a Google issue. It’s not an issue on apps such as TFL Go (heavily advertised so tourists will see) or CityMapper.

Google doesn't tell you anything about fares. It is a timetable planner only, and a very useful one at that.

 

[johncrossley]

There is no version of a map to print

Apart from the Mike Harris map. OK, there's a £1 charge, but charging for printed maps isn't unknown. A ready printed one is available by post for £2.

 

[Deerfold]

Apart from the Mike Harris map. OK, there's a £1 charge, but charging for printed maps isn't unknown. A ready printed one is available by post for £2.

Yes, but the post I was replying to was talking about hotels printing out maps for visitors. I doubt they'll be buying maps for them (or searching anywhere other than the TfL site).

According to the Open Data on the Bustimes website, you can on Green Line - £4 single Victoria anywhere as far as Lords Cricket Ground; £5 from Finchley Road to Brent Cross.

Arriva Beds & Bucks 757 Outbound - AD SGL fares – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

I stand corrected. However Megabus don't and further research is needed to see which of the routes provided by Google will let you travel - and that's more than the daily bus cap on the alternative routes.

 

[The exile]

They do if the timetable has been completely changed, had journeys added or omitted, or if a route is withdrawn completely.

Ultimately it's down to the local authority, bus company or whoever has responsibility to update such information, but often this isn't a priority and it takes a long time to update stop information. I haven't checked the information at my local stop for a while as I know when the hourly bus runs, but I wouldn't be confident that I could rely on it.

It is high time it is made an enforceable priority - with a minimum advance notice period for any significant non- emergency timetable change.

I don't normally use Google Maps for public transport but a lot of people use it simply because it is the most accessible option. If you are using the most popular browser (Chrome) and put in, for example, "Croydon to Bromley", you are presented with journey options without even needing to fire up another app. If that works they are not likely to be bothered to look at maps or timetables in future. It will work the vast majority of the time. They are highly unlikely to come up against 'edge cases'.

In the countries noted for high public transport usage, what is the attitude to maps and timetables? Are passengers more, less, or similarly likely to look at journey planners than in the UK? If they use journey planners, do they use Google Maps, apps from transport authorities or third party apps? From travels around Europe in recent years (before Covid) I don't recall seeing smart travel centres with racks of timetables like you see in major bus stations in places like northern England. The obvious follow on question is whether traditional timetables and maps, whether printed or not, is a significant factor influencing patronage levels? Within the UK it is probably hard to separate it from other factors. For example, Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire have loads of nice bus information offices with lots of printed timetables available to be picked up (at least before Covid) whereas London is at the opposite extreme.

One significant difference is that many of those countries ( in Europe at least) have set “timetable change” days, so you can be certain that if your bus is scheduled to leave at 16.01 today, it will still be scheduled to leave at 16.01 next Wednesday, and the one jn 3 months time (as long as that’s still within the widely-publicised timetable period). For many people, the most important place for a timetable is in their head!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I am also pretty certain that if a tourist asked nicely they could print information at the reception of their hotel should they prefer the paper version.

Ultimately digital is the way forward, including the reasons I gave previously such as updated in disruption, and people reliant on paper need to update with the times.

How's that going to work if your staying in lets say a B&B in the South West? The phone you use is a first generation WAP handset which still works so why replace it, it still works and makes and recieves calls. In most cases the more rural counties have routes that run to a very limited timetable and in some cases one a week however this may have changed and the route may have either been axed or merged. Journey planners to me are as much use as a return ticket on the Titanic - totally useless.

Some people prefer paper as they can see from the outset the first bus of the day to the last and the frequency inbetween, a mate of mine lives in a rural county in the south west and she has said to me that paper information should be at the forefront with digital complementing it, not replacing it. Any travelling that she plans to do is done with a road atlas (if travelling by moped) or with printed timtable information (even if they are printouts from the operator websites).

 

[Fisherman80]

I've given Transdev some stick in the past,but when it comes to printed timetables they are some of the best.