Cross Country 1st class catering problems?

[185]

A smaller buffet-shop should go back in, at the end of the B coach, so it can serve both standard and first with one employee.

8 seats out of B, stick them in the luggage/bike space in D, put the guard behind 1st, bikes in the standard end cupboard.

But being 20 years old nearly, they aint gonna pay for that. New stock ordered should have that consideration.

 

[Towers]

I was under the impression that the DfT had stipulated which roles were eligible for the redundancy scheme, but it was then up to TOCs to review applications locally and decide who they could or couldn't afford to lose; was that not the case?

Either way, shedding staff whom you clearly still require to operate your essential services (which catering is, all the while it is advertised as being provided) is clearly just plain incompetence, whoever's decision it was!

 

[Bletchleyite]

8 seats out of B, stick them in the luggage/bike space in D

8 seats with no window? That would be silly. If you want to reinstate the shop, put it back where it was and swap the vehicles round. It is possible to reform Voyager sets, they are semi-independent vehicles, the only issue is that you can't run a pair of driving vehicles on their own as they lack a piece of equipment, I think a compressor. I'm fairly sure the Avanti ones are not in their original formation, though I forget exactly what was swapped.

 

[Clip]

Interestingly yesterday i was coming back up from Birmingham international and won one of those seat frogs for 6 pounds - however even though the trolley was in coach A for some reason they went all the way to the front in coach F and stayed there the whole journey - no one even mentioned that we could go grab a free cup of tea from them which would've been welcome.

 

[voyagerdude220]

8 seats with no window? That would be silly. If you want to reinstate the shop, put it back where it was and swap the vehicles round. It is possible to reform Voyager sets, they are semi-independent vehicles, the only issue is that you can't run a pair of driving vehicles on their own as they lack a piece of equipment, I think a compressor. I'm fairly sure the Avanti ones are not in their original formation, though I forget exactly what was swapped.

All Avanti did in terms of formation was move the carriage containing the shop next to First Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All Avanti did in terms of formation was move the carriage containing the shop next to First Class.

Right. So if XC wanted to reinstate a shop to allow one person to serve both classes by way of only having them behind a counter, the thing to do would be to swap theirs round and reinstate the shop, not to put a load of seats in a windowless space and a new shop up against a window.

 

[dk1]

I think we have more chance of XC offering silver service than reinstating a shop/buffet on Voyagers

 

[Ferret]

Meanwhile, having turned catering into a form of Russian Roulette, Tom Joyner has at least managed to appoint yet another Director today, so all is not lost!

 

[43301]

A smaller buffet-shop should go back in, at the end of the B coach, so it can serve both standard and first with one employee.

No chance of that happening - the trend is clearly away from buffets in DfT land. Of all the new trains built over the past few years, the only ones with buffet counters are some of the 745s and the LNER 80x (apparently we have Virgin to thank for this sensible provision as they pushed the DfT into it). No other 80x units so far have a buffet, or any of the other assorted new units. Not sure about the 8xx for the MML (doubt it though), or the Avanti ones (more chance, if only for consistency with the Pendolinos).

 

[Bletchleyite]

No chance of that happening - the trend is clearly away from buffets in DfT land. Of all the new trains built over the past few years, the only ones with buffet counters are some of the 745s and the LNER 80x (apparently we have Virgin to thank for this sensible provision as they pushed the DfT into it). No other 80x units so far have a buffet, or any of the other assorted new units. Not sure about the 8xx for the MML (doubt it though), or the Avanti ones (more chance, if only for consistency with the Pendolinos).

Trolleys work very badly (yes, you, GWR) but the newer options like phone ordering have a lot of potential. A member of staff could come through occasionally to take orders for those who don't have a smartphone.

If there was a single GBR app and it was incorporated into that it'd be great.

Basic freebies in 1st are probably better done self-service with a flask of tea and coffee, pots of milk and bottles of water out. You can then top up whenever you want.

 

[142blue]

I was under the impression that the DfT had stipulated which roles were eligible for the redundancy scheme, but it was then up to TOCs to review applications locally and decide who they could or couldn't afford to lose; was that not the case?

Either way, shedding staff whom you clearly still require to operate your essential services (which catering is, all the while it is advertised as being provided) is clearly just plain incompetence, whoever's decision it was!

That is correct

 

[Scotrail314209]

8 seats with no window? That would be silly. If you want to reinstate the shop, put it back where it was and swap the vehicles round. It is possible to reform Voyager sets, they are semi-independent vehicles, the only issue is that you can't run a pair of driving vehicles on their own as they lack a piece of equipment, I think a compressor. I'm fairly sure the Avanti ones are not in their original formation, though I forget exactly what was swapped.

I think a couple of vehicles from 221144 were put into 221142 and 221143 (Virgin) at the time to create a standardised fleet of 5 car Voyagers, as it sat around in two car formation for ages.

 

[tc99]

OK, so as promised, am reporting back....

Train left Banbury, was served a coffee & a packet of biscuits by the onboard host. One of my son's got some warm diet coke. They had no ice. Rather him than me! Crew change at Birmingham New Street then nothing. No Standard class catering (I walked through - maybe it was in the back half), no ticket checks, no sign of any staff at all. Then about 30 mins out of Manchester someone comes along collecting the rubbish. I make a comment about presuming there's no catering (as I was on 4 tickets this could get interesting...), she thought I was looking for the Lobster Thermidor and filet steak, I suggested even just a packet of crisps might not go amiss by that point, to which she scuttled off to the back (actually the front) and after about 10 mins (seriously, this wasn't quick) came back with some snacks and a bottle of water I had also asked for. It was ice cold, suggesting that a fresh trolley had been loaded in Birmingham.

Now, I fail to believe that the job description of the first class host on the 90 minute run from New Street to Piccadilly involves hiding for as long as possible and not proactively offering catering. That would be an interesting way of reviewing the service.

Anyway, had I paid the asked for fare for Banbury-Manchester I'd be properly annoyed. The split ticket represented better value (i.e. about the same as a taxi but without the grief of the M6).

Thanks all!

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think a couple of vehicles from 221144 were put into 221142 and 221143 (Virgin) at the time to create a standardised fleet of 5 car Voyagers, as it sat around in two car formation for ages.

Yeah, there's one running around with two shops in it!

 

[greatvoyager]

Yeah, there's one running around with two shops in it!

That was changed in 2017 when 221144 was re-activated at XC. XC received the extra shop vehicle (221144s original), and Virgin received a standard vehicle I return (from 221136).

 

[Deafdoggie]

That was changed in 2017 when 221144 was re-activated at XC. XC received the extra shop vehicle (221144s original), and Virgin received a standard vehicle I return (from 221136).

I haven't been out much recently

 

[dk1]

Last week last 3 services not covered virtually every day plus others ad hoc gaps during the day.

Greater Anglia: On-Board Host (Fixed Term Contract) - Customer Services ~ Customer Service -

apply.greateranglia.co.uk

At last!!

 

[route101]

The HST on XC often acts as I de facto buffet counter. Never tried XC first class, not since the Virgin days. Warm soft drinks and beer, thats why I tend to avoid buying off a trolley.

 

[Jimini]

I use XC 1st class a couple of times a week (usually between Reading <> Brum) and not had any issues in coach A (the other 1st carriage on a doubled up Voyager can apparently be a bit hit and miss). Bacon roll and a couple of brews in the mornings, and a fairly decent ploughmans sandwich + snacks in the afternoons. Nothing after 8pm of course.

 

[Merseysider]

No catering whatsoever in Standard nor in First, in either half of the train, on the 1357 Brum - Manc this afternoon. Thanks to this thread I knew to stock up on sandwiches and beer in advance

I agree with @Bletchleyite that:

Basic freebies in 1st are probably better done self-service with a flask of tea and coffee, pots of milk and bottles of water out. You can then top up whenever you want.

- the free still & sparkling water in the fridge on Virgin was a nice touch.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Add DaFT to the "incompetence" list then.

Of course. but you knew that anyway didn't you. I would have thought you would know better than to cry "outrage" at the whole Treasury / DfT handling of the Covid financial black hole. The XC franchise has been a basket case for decades and I am sure Virgin Rail were secretly glad to walk away in October 2007. Paying four staff to operate a train with less than 200 seats, as well as all the service centre support of water urns and packets of crisps for said timetable. How could it make the serious money DfT have expected ? That is why the XC franchise renewal in 2016 then 2018 then blah di blah has been continually kicked down the road

If you were Rishi Sunak what would you think of train companies haemorrhaging millions, and their franchise contract conversions into whatever they are now called.

If I plan a train journey I pop into Asda or Sainsburys and pick up a meal deal - end of.

 

[class 9]

Of course. but you knew that anyway didn't you. I would have thought you would know better than to cry "outrage" at the whole Treasury / DfT handling of the Covid financial black hole. The XC franchise has been a basket case for decades and I am sure Virgin Rail were secretly glad to walk away in October 2007. Paying four staff to operate a train with less than 200 seats, as well as all the service centre support of water urns and packets of crisps for said timetable. How could it make the serious money DfT have expected ? That is why the XC franchise renewal in 2016 then 2018 then blah di blah has been continually kicked down the road

If you were Rishi Sunak what would you think of train companies haemorrhaging millions, and their franchise contract conversions into whatever they are now called.

If I plan a train journey I pop into Asda or Sainsburys and pick up a meal deal - end of.

Catering has never made money, but prior to covid XC as a whole was in the black and returned premiums to government.

 

[Towers]

Of course. but you knew that anyway didn't you. I would have thought you would know better than to cry "outrage" at the whole Treasury / DfT handling of the Covid financial black hole. The XC franchise has been a basket case for decades and I am sure Virgin Rail were secretly glad to walk away in October 2007. Paying four staff to operate a train with less than 200 seats, as well as all the service centre support of water urns and packets of crisps for said timetable. How could it make the serious money DfT have expected ? That is why the XC franchise renewal in 2016 then 2018 then blah di blah has been continually kicked down the road

If you were Rishi Sunak what would you think of train companies haemorrhaging millions, and their franchise contract conversions into whatever they are now called.

If I plan a train journey I pop into Asda or Sainsburys and pick up a meal deal - end of.

The sad irony of course being that XC's passengers, arguably moreso than those of most other long distance TOCs, really ought to be offered some sort of reasonable on board refreshments, given the slow and lengthy journeys that are often being made as the train winds its way across every bit of track the length of the country!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think all TOCs deliberately silo catering costs to "prove" they are loss-making and should be discarded. Catering on aircraft is profitable- estimates are about 10%-15% of profit for the low-cost airlines is generated from on board F&B sales- and I don't see that long-distance train journeys should be so very different (although yes, cabin crew would be there already even if they weren't selling coffee).

Post-Covid, the railways are going to be more reliant on leisure revenue. And "maybe you'll get a crap cup of coffee, maybe you won't" isn't quite the premium experience they'll need to market.

XC should never have lost the shop.

 

[voyagerdude220]

XC should never have lost the shop.

I strongly agree, despite the obvious need on their Voyager fleet to increase seating capacity in Standard Class.

I wonder if they could have obtained the same increase in capacity but retained the Shop by replacing one (on 4 car Voyagers) or two (on 5 car sets) of the disabled friendly size toilets with smaller size ones, moving luggage racks to the carriage ends where there aren't any windows and putting more seats in the middle of the Voyager carriages where luggage racks are?

 

[Deafdoggie]

I think all TOCs deliberately silo catering costs to "prove" they are loss-making and should be discarded. Catering on aircraft is profitable- estimates are about 10%-15% of profit for the low-cost airlines is generated from on board F&B sales- and I don't see that long-distance train journeys should be so very different (although yes, cabin crew would be there already even if they weren't selling coffee).

Post-Covid, the railways are going to be more reliant on leisure revenue. And "maybe you'll get a crap cup of coffee, maybe you won't" isn't quite the premium experience they'll need to market.

XC should never have lost the shop.

Leisure travellers are much more cost conscious and aren't really the most likely customers. If they do buy it's just a very low "spend per head" If the guard was doing it (like cabin crew do on airlines) of course costs would be lower, but I can't ever see that happening! But that's how airlines make their money from catering and rail doesn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think all TOCs deliberately silo catering costs to "prove" they are loss-making and should be discarded. Catering on aircraft is profitable- estimates are about 10%-15% of profit for the low-cost airlines is generated from on board F&B sales- and I don't see that long-distance train journeys should be so very different (although yes, cabin crew would be there already even if they weren't selling coffee).

The staff cost being £0 vastly changes the economics.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Travelling XC First class on Sundays before Covid the tea and coffee was sometimes provided from the trolley that also served the Standard.

I asked a friendly steward how she accounted for the fact that some drinks attract a charge and others do not (the inference of course being that a steward could inflate the number of free drinks issued and pocket the payment for them when sold). She sportingly pointed out that the different cups had strikingly different colours - and also that the First Class one was strikingly smaller...

 

[43301]

I strongly agree, despite the obvious need on their Voyager fleet to increase seating capacity in Standard Class.

I wonder if they could have obtained the same increase in capacity but retained the Shop by replacing one (on 4 car Voyagers) or two (on 5 car sets) of the disabled friendly size toilets with smaller size ones, moving luggage racks to the carriage ends where there aren't any windows and putting more seats in the middle of the Voyager carriages where luggage racks are?

Removing the shop didn't actually result in many extra seats - most of the space is the large luggage and bike space (the bike space was moved from the driving car to make way for a trolley store). The reason I've seen given for not putting more seats where the shop was (and I have no reason to doubt it) is that due to the way they are constructed it would be very, very difficult to cut another window into the bodyshell at that point. The same applies to removing one of the enormous bogs.

 

[mmh]

8 seats with no window? That would be silly. If you want to reinstate the shop, put it back where it was and swap the vehicles round. It is possible to reform Voyager sets, they are semi-independent vehicles, the only issue is that you can't run a pair of driving vehicles on their own as they lack a piece of equipment, I think a compressor. I'm fairly sure the Avanti ones are not in their original formation, though I forget exactly what was swapped.

You might be thinking of the Avanti / Virgin Voyager which has (had? I've not been on it in quite a while) 2 "shop" coaches? One shop was permanently closed with signs pointing at the other one. As you say, perfectly possible to re-form Voyagers (despite previous claims here!)