Scotrail and alcohol

[hi2u_uk]

A few questions for the experts

i) What is the law on drinking alcohol on scotrail
ii) Is it a law if the parliament didnt pass it and what is the punishment (Apparently in scotland it was never a law to isolate if you had covid just carefully worded phrasing from Miss Sturgeon so i wonder if its correct to say this is a law)
iii) Do scotrail trains sell alcohol
iv) Do scotrail stations still allow premises on them to sell alcohol
v) Is it true that you can carry open alcohol in a bag ie not visible . This implies you are only breaking the law if you are actually drinking it ? so if your can of larger is on the table open in a brown bags thats ok
vi) Is such a law practical to enforce

 

[Huntergreed]

i) What is the law on drinking alcohol on scotrail

There is no law on this. It’s Scotrail company policy that alcohol is banned on services. The only legal backing this has is, if a passenger consumes alcohol and refuses to leave, this is against railway byelaws which can be enforced by BTP.

ii) Is it a law if the parliament didnt pass it and what is the punishment (Apparently in scotland it was never a law to isolate if you had covid just carefully worded phrasing from Miss Sturgeon so i wonder if its correct to say this is a law)

Again, it’s not a law. Just company policy.

iii) Do scotrail trains sell alcohol

No

iv) Do scotrail stations still allow premises on them to sell alcohol

Yes, central station has a bar where you can buy alcohol. Many stations also have shops where alcohol can be bought. The rule is only on consuming outwith these premises or carrying visible alcohol

v) Is it true that you can carry open alcohol in a bag ie not visible . This implies you are only breaking the law if you are actually drinking it ? so if your can of larger is on the table open in a brown bags thats ok

Yes, but if it is visible (opened or unopened) then that is also against the ban

vi) Is such a law practical to enforce

As above, the only enforcement would be if a passenger refused to leave after asked by staff and BTP had to get involved, as this is a byelaw offense.

 

[380101]

There is no law on this. It’s Scotrail company policy that alcohol is banned on services. The only legal backing this has is, if a passenger consumes alcohol and refuses to leave, this is against railway byelaws which can be enforced by BTP.

Again, it’s not a law. Just company policy.

No

Yes, central station has a bar where you can buy alcohol. Many stations also have shops where alcohol can be bought. The rule is only on consuming outwith these premises or carrying visible alcohol

Yes, but if it is visible (opened or unopened) then that is also against the ban

As above, the only enforcement would be if a passenger refused to leave after asked by staff and BTP had to get involved, as this is a byelaw offense.

Just to point out that Central Station is not operated by ScotRail

 

[gingertom]

Here's a very real situation. Suppose me and the missus go away on holiday flying from Manchester. We'd get a TPE service from Edinburgh Waverley with a connecting Scotrail service from Croy. On the return leg we are very likely to have a bottle or two of duty free. What's the rules regarding taking that on board at Edinburgh for the Scotrail service back to Croy if it has been designated a "dry" train? We wouldn't be cracking open the duty free until we get home but it seems we could be in trouble for just taking it on board a dry train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Here's a very real situation. Suppose me and the missus go away on holiday flying from Manchester. We'd get a TPE service from Edinburgh Waverley with a connecting Scotrail service from Croy. On the return leg we are very likely to have a bottle or two of duty free. What's the rules regarding taking that on board at Edinburgh for the Scotrail service back to Croy if it has been designated a "dry" train? We wouldn't be cracking open the duty free until we get home but it seems we could be in trouble for just taking it on board a dry train.

There’s no issue if it isn’t open or visible.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There is no law on this. It’s Scotrail company policy that alcohol is banned on services. The only legal backing this has is, if a passenger consumes alcohol and refuses to leave, this is against railway byelaws which can be enforced by BTP.

Again, it’s not a law. Just company policy.

No

Yes, central station has a bar where you can buy alcohol. Many stations also have shops where alcohol can be bought. The rule is only on consuming outwith these premises or carrying visible alcohol

Yes, but if it is visible (opened or unopened) then that is also against the ban

As above, the only enforcement would be if a passenger refused to leave after asked by staff and BTP had to get involved, as this is a byelaw offense.

Byelaws aren't company policy, they are byelaws. Scotrail helpfully point to the relevant byelaw on their website - 4 (2) - which states:

where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him

So permitting people to carry alcohol is company policy but prohibiting its consumption isn't.

 

[DarloRich]

Here's a very real situation. Suppose me and the missus go away on holiday flying from Manchester. We'd get a TPE service from Edinburgh Waverley with a connecting Scotrail service from Croy. On the return leg we are very likely to have a bottle or two of duty free. What's the rules regarding taking that on board at Edinburgh for the Scotrail service back to Croy if it has been designated a "dry" train? We wouldn't be cracking open the duty free until we get home but it seems we could be in trouble for just taking it on board a dry train.

Christ not this again! They wont care if you havent opended the bottle and have it tucked away in your case

 

[Christmas]

They need to rethink this policy, or get other TOCs on board and get them to also ban alcohol on the Scottish network.

 

[Berliner]

Here's a very real situation. Suppose me and the missus go away on holiday flying from Manchester. We'd get a TPE service from Edinburgh Waverley with a connecting Scotrail service from Croy. On the return leg we are very likely to have a bottle or two of duty free. What's the rules regarding taking that on board at Edinburgh for the Scotrail service back to Croy if it has been designated a "dry" train? We wouldn't be cracking open the duty free until we get home but it seems we could be in trouble for just taking it on board a dry train.

The rule is in place to stop people getting drunk on thier trains and causing problems for others, not to stop holiday makers carrying duty free home from the airport. Literally no one is going to chuck you off a scotrail train if you are carrying booze in your bag. How would they even know?

 

[Western Gaffer]

They need to rethink this policy, or get other TOCs on board and get them to also ban alcohol on the Scottish network.

Why do they need to rethink this policy, or are you just saying that you (along with Mhairi Black!) disagree with it?

What do you see as the actual effect of the inconsistency with other TOCs, when it's only a handful of services competing with ScotRail?

 

[Oxfordblues]

A wee nightcap before bed on the Fort William-Euston is part of the experience. Fortunately the rule doesn't apply on Caledonian Sleepers. I do wish though that there were a similar ban on Cross-Country trains in England, on Saturdays at least. I've had dreadful encounters with groups of lager-boys.

 

[cornishjohn]

The rule is in place to stop people getting drunk on thier trains and causing problems for others,

Understood,

The rule is in place to stop people getting drunk on thier trains and causing problems for others, not to stop holiday makers carrying duty free home from the airport. Literally no one is going to chuck you off a scotrail train if you are carrying booze in your bag. How would they even know?

But what "power of search" do they have?

Can I sniff that hipflask please maam?
Can I see in that tesco's carrier please sir?
Will you open your briefcase please...?

 

[hi2u_uk]

The rule is in place to stop people getting drunk on thier trains and causing problems for others, not to stop holiday makers carrying duty free home from the airport. Literally no one is going to chuck you off a scotrail train if you are carrying booze in your bag. How would they even know?

My understanding is that they put this in place because they noticed drunk people were less likely to adhere to covid rules. Im sorry but the conspiracy theorist in me thinks the glorious first fish (or one of her underlings) had a word with someone at scotrail to prompt them to do this. I dont believe they idea came internally at scotrail given people were drinking and causing inconvenience way before covid but they didnt think about introducing this by law


Basically it wasnt anything to do with causing problems for other passengers

A wee nightcap before bed on the Fort William-Euston is part of the experience. Fortunately the rule doesn't apply on Caledonian Sleepers. I do wish though that there were a similar ban on Cross-Country trains in England, on Saturdays at least. I've had dreadful encounters with groups of lager-boys.

Again it was to do with protecting us from covid , it wasnt anything to do with groups of larger lout boys /MPs coming back from football matches

 

[greyman42]

Yes, but if it is visible (opened or unopened) then that is also against the ban

What is the thinking behind this. What difference does being visible or not make?

 

[Berliner]

Understood,

But what "power of search" do they have?

Can I sniff that hipflask please maam?
Can I see in that tesco's carrier please sir?
Will you open your briefcase please...?

None of this ever happens and the staff don't have the power to search your bag or demand to know the contents.

 

[route101]

Been on a few Scotrail services recently. The guards have not said anything to people who were drinking.

Booze can still be bought in M&S at Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley. I did notice in England, station WH Smith can sell booze.

 

[Runningaround]

Here's a very real situation. Suppose me and the missus go away on holiday flying from Manchester. We'd get a TPE service from Edinburgh Waverley with a connecting Scotrail service from Croy. On the return leg we are very likely to have a bottle or two of duty free. What's the rules regarding taking that on board at Edinburgh for the Scotrail service back to Croy if it has been designated a "dry" train? We wouldn't be cracking open the duty free until we get home but it seems we could be in trouble for just taking it on board a dry train.

You wouldn't be much different from someone heading home after a visit to the Glenmorangie Distillery with a £200 bottle in their bag, as long as you're not swigging it down your fine.

They need to rethink this policy, or get other TOCs on board and get them to also ban alcohol on the Scottish network.

Considering your name I thought you'd be more aware; Just think how that'd effect the Whisky tour no drinking and no bringing any home and as you forced us all in cars no tasting.

 

[kristiang85]

Been on a few Scotrail services recently. The guards have not said anything to people who were drinking.

I very much assume the rule is there so when people are disruptive, then there is some backing for officials to take action on said offenders. Most guards are probably taking this common sense approach.

I'm sure someone having a quiet beer on the way home from work or holiday won't be bothered, as it only serves to potentially cause an escalation which would never have happened.

The problem is, if someone does want to get drunk on the train they can just fill a bottle of sprite with vodka - I find these kind of rules only penalise those who are not the problem, without making much difference overall.

 

[greyman42]

I very much assume the rule is there so when people are disruptive, then there is some backing for officials to take action on said offenders. Most guards are probably taking this common sense approach.

I'm sure someone having a quiet beer on the way home from work or holiday won't be bothered, as it only serves to potentially cause an escalation which would never have happened.

It was the same on LNER during lockdown when alcohol was banned. I regularly took beer on the train and openly drank it. I never got so much as a dirty look from staff.

 

[Runningaround]

It's pretty obvious what the rule is aimed at. It's groups piling on a train with crates of beer and getting drunk on train on the way somewhere or individuals finishing off their pints from the pub and are already drunk. They will be asked(if the staff have the courage to do so) to bin the pint or leave the cans in the pack until they get off or risk getting them confiscated shall they drink it on train.
You aren't getting your shopping examined.

 

[cornishjohn]

None of this ever happens and the staff don't have the power to search your bag or demand to know the contents.

So all I need to do to evade the ban is put a couple of 6-packs in a plastic bag?

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of this ever happens and the staff don't have the power to search your bag or demand to know the contents.

BTP however do. It's not unusual for them to search bags on boarding trains that have a specific ban e.g. for football reasons. Certainly happens at Euston.

With regard to this ScotRail ban I think it's more like Merseyrail's - you can carry it in your shopping, but it must not be on display or be consumed.

To be honest I could see a sense in keeping the ban on the likes of the Glasgow suburbans (very Merseyrail-like in concept) and Edinburgh-Glasgow, but allowing it again on Inter7City and the West Highland/Far North due to the longer journeys.

 

[InOban]

If you've watched Inside Central Station you will know that on specific occasions they will enforce it at the Gateline

 

[greyman42]

BTP however do. It's not unusual for them to search bags on boarding trains that have a specific ban e.g. for football reasons. Certainly happens at Euston.

And Kings Cross, pre Covid, with fans travelling back to the North East. I am not sure if they have had "dry" trains since supporters were allowed back in grounds.

 

[43066]

There is no law on this. It’s Scotrail company policy that alcohol is banned on services. The only legal backing this has is, if a passenger consumes alcohol and refuses to leave, this is against railway byelaws which can be enforced by BTP.

To be fair the bylaws mean the policy is very much legally enforceable. If staff ask you to leave and you refuse to do so you are then committing the criminal offence of railway trespass, so more serious than doing the equivalent in most non railway environments with no bylaws.

BTP however do. It's not unusual for them to search bags on boarding trains that have a specific ban e.g. for football reasons. Certainly happens at Euston.

With regard to this ScotRail ban I think it's more like Merseyrail's - you can carry it in your shopping, but it must not be on display or be consumed.

Indeed I think this is where the confusion is coming from. Certain dry trains - usually specific football services publicised in advanced - will have passengers thoroughly searched by the BTP who are often present on board throughout the journey. No alcohol whatsoever is permitted on board, with even sealed containers of alcohol confiscated. The Scotrail approach sounds a lot more like that of TfL, for example.

 

[Runningaround]

So all I need to do to evade the ban is put a couple of 6-packs in a plastic bag?

Yes just dont drink them when your on a dry train. Just like a packet of cigarettes really.

 

[43066]

Yes just dont drink them when your on a dry train. Just like a packet of cigarettes really.

How do you drink a packet of cigarettes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair the bylaws mean the policy is very much legally enforceable. If staff ask you to leave and you refuse to do so you are then committing the criminal offence of railway trespass, so more serious than doing the equivalent in most non railway environments with no bylaws.

Though with private prosecutions near-impossible in Scotland it would require the Scottish equivalent of the CPS (forget what it's called) to push it. Which they might well do, as unlike minor ticketing issues preventing ASB very much is in the public interest.

How do you drink a packet of cigarettes?

The point was that you can take a packet of cigarettes and a box of matches/lighter on a train quite happily, and thousands of people do every day, you just can't spark up.

 

[Runningaround]

Though with private prosecutions near-impossible in Scotland it would require the Scottish equivalent of the CPS (forget what it's called) to push it. Which they might well do, as unlike minor ticketing issues preventing ASB very much is in the public interest.





The point was that you can take a packet of cigarettes and a box of matches/lighter on a train quite happily, and thousands of people do every day, you just can't spark up.

You can legally carry all sorts of things in your bags that might be illegal to use publicly, like xmas shopping from Ann Summers, it doesn't mean you are going to use them on a train.

 

[43066]

Though with private prosecutions near-impossible in Scotland it would require the Scottish equivalent of the CPS (forget what it's called) to push it. Which they might well do, as unlike minor ticketing issues preventing ASB very much is in the public interest.

The police themselves have the ability to decide whether or not to prosecute lower level offences so, if BTP got involved, prosecution would certainly be a possibility. Unlike revenue who can merely “report for prosecution”, it’s impossible for even hardened malfeasors to run away from BTP as they will give chase and have access to handcuffs, transport vans, cells etc., which is why it’s a shame there aren’t more of them around!

The point was that you can take a packet of cigarettes and a box of matches/lighter on a train quite happily, and thousands of people do every day, you just can't spark up.

I know, I know. That was just me being me.