TPE question: What stock is usually assigned to which diagrams?

[A0]

Is there a current list of what (usually) covers which TPE diagrams? Planning a day out and would be useful to know - looking mainly at TPE North i.e Liverpool - York on a Saturday.

TIA.

 

[Fokx]

Is there a current list of what (usually) covers which TPE diagrams? Planning a day out and would be useful to know - looking mainly at TPE North i.e Liverpool - York on a Saturday.

TIA.

Class 802 Nova 1:
Liverpool to Newcastle
Edinburgh to Newcastle

Class 397 Nova 2:
Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow
Liverpool to Glasgow

Class 68 and MK5A Nova 3:
York to Scarborough
Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds to Scarborough (limited service)

Class 185:
Manchester Airport to Redcar Central
Manchester Airport/Pic to Cleethorpes
Manchester Pic to Hull
Manchester Pic to Huddersfield (Local)
Leeds to Huddersfield (Local)
York to Scarborough

 

[Watershed]

Is there a current list of what (usually) covers which TPE diagrams? Planning a day out and would be useful to know - looking mainly at TPE North i.e Liverpool - York on a Saturday.

TIA.

There is a thread here containing 68 diagrams. Current weekday/Saturday diagrams are in this post. Sundays are similar.

WCML services are all booked 397s, and Liverpool-York/Newcastle and Newcastle-Edinburgh services are 802s. Everything else is a 185 (usually double sets on everything except the Manchester/Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers).

802s and 185s occasionally swap around during engineering works, but it's fairly uncommon.

 

[A0]

Thanks for the replies - gives the info I was looking for.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is it too early to ask whether there are any changes to the TPE diagrams coming in the May timetable or will the pattern of 802s on everything to Newcastle, a mix of 68s and 185s to Scarborough, 397s only on the WCML and 185s only everywhere else persist?

 

[CAF397]

The only change to allocations will be when 68s start to appear on the Cleethorpes services. Should've been May, but as has been mentioned on this forum, the dates have slipped.

 

[Huntergreed]

I was under the impression that some of the 802’s will be sent on WCML diagrams from the May timetable change. Is this no longer the case?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was under the impression that some of the 802’s will be sent on WCML diagrams from the May timetable change. Is this no longer the case?

I heard the first of the day from Edinburgh would go over, but I'm not sure of the progress on this. Personally, I would be against it as I find the 802s to have a dramatically bland and dull interior compared to the warmer, classier interior of the 397. Having said that, I would never use TransPennine Express on the WCML while I can take an Avanti West Coast service on the same route anyway.

 

[Watershed]

I was under the impression that some of the 802’s will be sent on WCML diagrams from the May timetable change. Is this no longer the case?

Based on what's in RTT I'd suggest one Mon-Sat diagram:

06:12 EDB-MIA 09:41
10:10 MIA-EDB 13:26
14:12 EDB-MIA 17:46
18:10 MIA-EDB 21:40

Nothing on Sunday (likely as the later Sunday startup means a Craigentinny-Craigentinny diagram isn't possible)

Of course that was pretty much what was supposed to happen from the December TT change and I think an 802 only made it out about twice, so I would still expect a number of 397 substitutions or simply cancellations.

 

[Liverpool 507]

The 802 diagram will start from 08:12 Monday - Friday and 06:12 on Saturdays.

 

[507020]

I saw an 802 on test at Preston earlier.

I heard the first of the day from Edinburgh would go over, but I'm not sure of the progress on this. Personally, I would be against it as I find the 802s to have a dramatically bland and dull interior compared to the warmer, classier interior of the 397. Having said that, I would never use TransPennine Express on the WCML while I can take an Avanti West Coast service on the same route anyway.

I would and have used TPE or even Northern over Avanti West Coast on the WCML solely because some of the departure times may be more convenient. In fact I have used all 3 today.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I saw an 802 on test at Preston earlier.

I would and have used TPE or even Northern over Avanti West Coast on the WCML solely because some of the departure times may be more convenient. In fact I have used all 3 today.

Sure, but I was simply referring to my personal rolling stock preferences. If I had a pressing reason to be somewhere at a certain time I would naturally take the one that would get me there on time, but in that circumstance I wouldn't care about the rolling stock.

 

[Liverpool 507]

I heard the first of the day from Edinburgh would go over, but I'm not sure of the progress on this. Personally, I would be against it as I find the 802s to have a dramatically bland and dull interior compared to the warmer, classier interior of the 397. Having said that, I would never use TransPennine Express on the WCML while I can take an Avanti West Coast service on the same route anyway.

802s are based on their DfT specified 800/801 counterparts.

 

[507020]

Sure, but I was simply referring to my personal rolling stock preferences. If I had a pressing reason to be somewhere at a certain time I would naturally take the one that would get me there on time, but in that circumstance I wouldn't care about the rolling stock.

Soon we will have a choice of original Pendolinos and refurbished ones with different seats. There are already improved 195s with moquette. If I decide I want to go to Falkirk via Cumbernauld as opposed to Glasgow or Edinburgh, I will need to find a service that stops at Motherwell, which seem to be mostly TPE, with some Pendolinos on the return.

802s are based on their DfT specified 800/801 counterparts.

Were the 397s specified properly (other than for the ironing boards and covers) by TPE themselves and is the Lumo 803 specification, also done by First, better in any way?

 

[driver9000]

I saw an 802 on test at Preston earlier.

All testing was completed long ago. Driver training and refreshing is ongoing to be ready for the May timetable.

 

[route101]

Seen a few TPE 802s at Glasgow Central, perhaps scope for one to pop up on that route.

 

[driver9000]

Seen a few TPE 802s at Glasgow Central, perhaps scope for one to pop up on that route.

Not planned to work to Glasgow in service but not beyond the realms of fantasy although it would need careful planning to get it back to a Hitachi depot. TPE are currently stabling an 802 at Polmadie because it's operationally more convenient for the current training circuit as Glasgow is where the train crew depot is located. It saves time travelling to and from Edinburgh to collect or drop the set off at Craigentinny.

 

[507020]

All testing was completed long ago. Driver training and refreshing is ongoing to be ready for the May timetable.

That’s what I meant.

Not planned to work to Glasgow in service but not beyond the realms of fantasy although it would need careful planning to get it back to a Hitachi depot. TPE are currently stabling an 802 at Polmadie because it's operationally more convenient for the current training circuit as Glasgow is where the train crew depot is located. It saves time travelling to and from Edinburgh to collect or drop the set off at Craigentinny.

Settle - Carlisle diversions are not beyond the realms of possibility and other than for the prospect of those, the return of Diesel capability to the WCML services is not good news.

 

[driver9000]

That’s what I meant.

Settle - Carlisle diversions are not beyond the realms of possibility and other than for the prospect of those, the return of Diesel capability to the WCML services is not good news.

They'll be running on electric but the diesel fall back is handy if things go wrong. However they will run on diesel northbound between Manchester and Preston due to some OLE issues. Running on the S&C is very unlikely.

 

[507020]

They'll be running on electric but the diesel fall back is handy if things go wrong. However they will run on diesel northbound between Manchester and Preston due to some OLE issues. Running on the S&C is very unlikely.

Manchester to Preston is where the 397s have their biggest advantage, being able to take advantage of the 100mph line speed. A Pendolino went via Bolton on Sunday and was restricted to 75mph the whole way from Salford Crescent to Euxton Junction, with only 20mph on the Windsor Link. For this line to revert to Diesel operation would be a significant downgrade. The Diesel fallback should only be used when running on unelectrified lines or when there are issues with the power supply.

 

[Watershed]

Manchester to Preston is where the 397s have their biggest advantage, being able to take advantage of the 100mph line speed. A Pendolino went via Bolton on Sunday and was restricted to 75mph the whole way from Salford Crescent to Euxton Junction, with only 20mph on the Windsor Link. For this line to revert to Diesel operation would be a significant downgrade. The Diesel fallback should only be used when running on unelectrified lines or when there are issues with the power supply.

It's a temporary issue which will hopefully be resolved soon.

 

[507020]

It's a temporary issue which will hopefully be resolved soon.

It’s no doubt an issue with the 802 units poor electromagnetic compatibility, which they have suffered with on other lines and other units have suffered on that line, so nothing new, but why don’t they simply order more 397s which may in future run on the TransPennine route or in 10 car formations, rather than attempt to use unsuitable stock on the WCML?

 

[Watershed]

It’s no doubt an issue with the 802 units poor electromagnetic compatibility, which they have suffered with on other lines and other units have suffered on that line, so nothing new, but why don’t they simply order more 397s which may in future run on the TransPennine route or in 10 car formations, rather than attempt to use unsuitable stock on the WCML?

802s are entirely suitable for the route, just as 80x are for LNER, HT and Lumo on the ECML - I have no idea why you suggest otherwise. I strongly suspect that a single 802 fleet would have been ordered, if all the issues with the CAF stock had been foreseen.

TPE have recently announced a tender for additional stock; based on the criteria, a follow-on order of class 802s seems effectively guaranteed.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It’s no doubt an issue with the 802 units poor electromagnetic compatibility, which they have suffered with on other lines and other units have suffered on that line, so nothing new, but why don’t they simply order more 397s which may in future run on the TransPennine route or in 10 car formations, rather than attempt to use unsuitable stock on the WCML?

802s are entirely suitable for the route, just as 80x are for LNER, HT and Lumo on the ECML - I have no idea why you suggest otherwise. I strongly suspect that a single 802 fleet would have been ordered, if all the issues with the CAF stock had been foreseen.

TPE have recently announced a tender for additional stock; based on the criteria, a follow-on order of class 802s seems effectively guaranteed.

The likelyhood of more 802s is just plain madness if you ask me. As the tender information states, full electrification of the route between Manchester and York is expected, so why require burdening the units (and the climate) with more heavy diesel engines? If it were up to me, given the option for 7-car units in the tender document, I think I would go for a follow-on order of 7-car 397s to the same spec as the existing 397s apart from ditching Fainsa as the supplier of seats. That would give a pool of EMUs, with common spares, which could be deployed as 5, 7 or 10 (2x5) coach trains as needed on TPE's WCML, Newcastle-Edinburgh and Liverpool/Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle services. Their existing fleet of 802s could then be cascaded onto Redcar, Hull and Scarborough workings, where the bi-mode capability would still be needed, and the mark 5 sets onto Manchester to Cleethorpes.

 

[507020]

The likelyhood of more 802s is just plain madness if you ask me. As the tender information states, full electrification of the route between Manchester and York is expected, so why require burdening the units (and the climate) with more heavy diesel engines? If it were up to me, given the option for 7-car units in the tender document, I think I would go for a follow-on order of 7-car 397s to the same spec as the existing 397s apart from ditching Fainsa as the supplier of seats. That would give a pool of EMUs, with common spares, which could be deployed as 5, 7 or 10 (2x5) coach trains as needed on TPE's WCML, Newcastle-Edinburgh and Liverpool/Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle services. Their existing fleet of 802s could then be cascaded onto Redcar, Hull and Scarborough workings, where the bi-mode capability would still be needed, and the mark 5 sets onto Manchester to Cleethorpes.

I agree with every word, except for Saltburn instead of Redcar. 185s could then be cascaded, some to the EMR Liverpool - Nottingham (with Derby - Norwich run by GA with surplus FLIRTs) and the remainder to Northern, primarily to keep them on routes they are already cleared for.

 

[Some guy]

It’s no doubt an issue with the 802 units poor electromagnetic compatibility, which they have suffered with on other lines and other units have suffered on that line, so nothing new, but why don’t they simply order more 397s which may in future run on the TransPennine route or in 10 car formations, rather than attempt to use unsuitable stock on the WCML?

They’re completely suitable they have a great acceleration and will be able to run at 125mph when the WCML is cleared for all stock. It’s better them using them on both mainlines so stock won’t be sat around idle

 

[507020]

They’re completely suitable they have a great acceleration and will be able to run at 125mph when the WCML is cleared for all stock. It’s better them using them on both mainlines so stock won’t be sat around idle

And what of the 397s, which will equally be able to run at 125mph?

 

[Some guy]

And what of the 397s, which will equally be able to run at 125mph?

As good as the 397’s are there’s only 12 of them to run services to Liverpool and Manchester. It will be interesting to see the 800’s make their WCML debut it also helps out when a 397 has a problem just like 185’s ran to supplement 350’s

 

[Watershed]

The likelyhood of more 802s is just plain madness if you ask me. As the tender information states, full electrification of the route between Manchester and York is expected, so why require burdening the units (and the climate) with more heavy diesel engines?

If the units are AC only, they would be unable to divert for engineering works or disruption - there is currently no prospect of the Calder Valley or other diversionary routes being electrified. So you can look forward to bustitutions every second weekend. I hardly think so!

Furthermore, diesel engines aren't a given. Even if fitted when the units are supplied, they're modular and designed to be able to be removed. There's nothing saying that any of the 80x fleet will necessarily keep their diesel engines forever - for example, they may well be replaced by battery packs.

And even if they do end up lugging around diesel engines for their entire lives, with electricity becoming greener all the time, is that really such a problem?

And what of the 397s, which will equally be able to run at 125mph?

With a fleet of 12, their poor reliability doesn't allow for the full WCML timetable that was aspired to (including 4tpd Liverpool-Glasgow).

In the longer term, I'm not sure that the 397s have a secure future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the longer term, I'm not sure that the 397s have a secure future.

I'd not see that as a given - after all the unreliable junk that is the Class 180 is still knocking around...