ICE trains to St Pancras?

[Owencr905]

I’ve seen photos of an ICE 3 at St Pancras but it’s not something that seems to happen anymore. What exactly was the purpose of the service and will it ever return?

It would be an awesome sight to see if it was regular.

 

[Mag_seven]

I’ve seen photos of an ICE 3 at St pancreas but it’s not something that seems to happen anymore. What exactly was the purpose of the service and will it ever return?

It would be an awesome sight to see if it was regular.

There was a proposal for DB to run services through the Channel Tunnel but they never did in the end. They sent an ICE set over for display / promotional purposes in 2010.

 

[zwk500]

It was a one-off demonstration run to prove the technical feasibility of DB operating a through London-Brussels-Cologne and possibly Frankfurt service. It isn't going to happen anytime soon, although I don't know if DB/Eurostar still have it as a formal intention.

 

[Olpy]

It was a one-off demonstration run to prove the technical feasibility of DB operating a through London-Brussels-Cologne and possibly Frankfurt service. It isn't going to happen anytime soon, although I don't know if DB/Eurostar still have it as a formal intention.

It would be really interesting!

 

[zwk500]

It would be really interesting!

It got held up over Channel Tunnel fire regulations, although my understanding was that they had been resolved. The key outstanding issues were access to HS1, border security setup at the stations beyond Brussels and the actual economics of what they could run.

 

[StephenHunter]

Eurostar now has Siemens Velaro units that are basically the same as the ICE3M, but they don't have German signalling equipment fitted. Yet.

 

[railwaytrack]

The original plans were that there was supposed to be a regularly daily service between London and Germany run by DB ICE 3 trains starting in early 2012 in time for the Olympics but the plans just fell apart for some reason and that is unfortunately no longer happening.

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar now has Siemens Velaro units that are basically the same as the ICE3M, but they don't have German signalling equipment fitted. Yet.

Would they need an existing fitted system removed to make room or has a space been left?

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Depending on where a Germany service would go, setting up a border control station in North Rhine-Westphalia that a) has enough space (both geographically and in the timetable around it) b) is where people wanna go c) has reasonable infrastructure costs and d) is able to be served by a good timetable is basically impossible

 

[StephenHunter]

Depending on where a Germany service would go, setting up a border control station in North Rhine-Westphalia that a) has enough space (both geographically and in the timetable around it) b) is where people wanna go and c) is able to be served by a good timetable is basically impossible

They managed to get facilities into Rotterdam and Amsterdam Centraal. Also, until those facilities are built, you can do the "Lille Shuffle" if required.

 

[Starmill]

Also, until those facilities are built, you can do the "Lille Shuffle" if required.

This is so inconvenient that it makes running a through service entirely pointless. It's more convenient to interchange at Bruxelles Midi.

They managed to get facilities into Rotterdam and Amsterdam Centraal.

With great difficulty and delay, and at enormous cost. Note that they didn't include Antwerp due to the cost.

 

[railwaytrack]

Even better they could just stop these trains at Cheriton and Coquelles and do British and French border checks there. That would also have the advantage of being able to just turn up at the station and board the train a couple of minutes before departure as there would be no checks before boarding. I think that would be a better option for such trains.

 

[StephenHunter]

This is so inconvenient that it makes running a through service entirely pointless. It's more convenient to interchange at Bruxelles Midi.

Or do Bruxelles coming back. Southbound, there is no issue as the Schengen checks are done before boarding in the UK.

 

[Owencr905]

There was a proposal for DB to run services through the Channel Tunnel but they never did in the end. They sent an ICE set over for display / promotional purposes in 2010.

Interesting, thank you

It was a one-off demonstration run to prove the technical feasibility of DB operating a through London-Brussels-Cologne and possibly Frankfurt service. It isn't going to happen anytime soon, although I don't know if DB/Eurostar still have it as a formal intention.

Thanks for that info

 

[zwk500]

Even better they could just stop these trains at Cheriton and Coquelles and do British and French border checks there. That would also have the advantage of being able to just turn up at the station and board the train a couple of minutes before departure as there would be no checks before boarding. I think that would be a better option for such trains.

There is a very good reason they don't do this - it would destroy the advantage of the service by lengthening journey times (remember the premium classes can check in down to something like 20-30 minutes before departure) and disrupting the usable time.

Or do Bruxelles coming back. Southbound, there is no issue as the Schengen checks are done before boarding in the UK.

Notably, this is what they did for Eurostar to Amsterdam before the border checks were in place - you could do London > Amsterdam in one go, but coming back you had to use a normal European service to Brussels and pick up the Eurostar there. However this is a poor use of the Eurostar resources.

 

[StephenHunter]

Considering Thalys and Eurostar are merging...

 

[zwk500]

Considering Thalys and Eurostar are merging...

I suspect this make through services less appealing, not more appealing, to the operator as they can simply sell combined tickets for the interchange, rather than see half the fare go to a different company.

 

[Starmill]

Or do Bruxelles coming back. Southbound, there is no issue as the Schengen checks are done before boarding in the UK.

You can already do it at Brussels. This has been possible for years.

I suspect this make through services less appealing, not more appealing, to the operator as they can simply sell combined tickets for the interchange, rather than see half the fare go to a different company.

Eurostar have been selling Eurostar & Thalys tickets for Germany - London for quite some time. As with all Thalys tickets they are not cheap.

 

[plugwash]

The original plans were that there was supposed to be a regularly daily service between London and Germany run by DB ICE 3 trains starting in early 2012 in time for the Olympics but the plans just fell apart for some reason and that is unfortunately no longer happening.

AIUI one problem is how to handle border control and security. My understanding is that the British authorities don't consider checks on the train and/or checks on arrival to be sufficient. So you either need to have UK border control at every origin (££££) or you need to do a "Lille shuffle", where you unload the whole train in Lille, run everyone through border control and then load them back on the train.

 

[Starmill]

AIUI one problem is how to handle border control and security. My understanding is that the British authorities don't consider checks on the train and/or checks on arrival to be sufficient. So you either need to have UK border control at every origin (££££) or you need to do a "Lille shuffle", where you unload the whole train in Lille, run everyone through border control and then load them back on the train.

You would never do the Lille shuffle from Germany. You would do it at Bruxelles, where there are more facilities.

 

[plugwash]

Wherever you do the "shuffle", it seems to me it destroys much of the value of having a direct train. So the direct train is only a benefit on travel from the UK not travel to the UK.

Another issue is that the Longer the journey gets, the worse train travel looks compared to air travel. Dealing with airports involves a bunch of BS, but the ammount of BS is largely constant whatever the distance of the journey, whereas the slower speed of trains compared to planes hurts more and more as the journey gets longer.

Edit: I see someone has already mentioned the point about the shuffle.

 

[Starmill]

Wherever you do the "shuffle", it seems to me it destroys much of the value of having a direct train. So the direct train is only a benefit on travel from the UK not travel to the UK.

That's precisely what I was getting at. You can already do said shuffle at Bruxelles Midi and have been able to for many years. Very few people choose to, unsurprisingly given the risk and huge cost.

 

[30907]

Depending on where a Germany service would go, setting up a border control station in North Rhine-Westphalia that a) has enough space (both geographically and in the timetable around it) b) is where people wanna go c) has reasonable infrastructure costs and d) is able to be served by a good timetable is basically impossible

It might be possible at Koeln Messe/Deutz (Upper) as it has 6 mainline platforms, but it would need a great deal of work from the passenger viewpoint and track and timetable alterations to create a dedicated island platform.
(Do they use Deutz to regulate trains before crossing the bridge, because Hbf is so congested?)
You would want to serve Frankfurt Hbf too - at least there might be space there, but it's another hour journey and no chance of intermediate traffic, so likely to be unviable.

 

[duesselmartin]

Düsseldorf might be a variety. With the current lack of Motorrail there should be enough platform space. Using the line via Mönchengladbach means one could avoid the congested Cologne area and safe some vital minutes.
Düsseldorf also has good onward connections and is at the heart of a large urban conglomerate.

 

[SeanG]

Why couldn't passport checks etc be carried out on the train by officers boarding the train in the station? This happens elsewhere in Europe with no issues

 

[Snow1964]

Why couldn't passport checks etc be carried out on the train by officers boarding the train in the station? This happens elsewhere in Europe with no issues

The Home office and border control authorities don’t like the idea as not secure. The original Eurostars even had a secure room near centre cars for border staff (as designed and built) where any travelling without correct documentation could be detained.

Secure is clearly a relative term considering how many people border control allow to arrive on small boats without passports or visa these days.

I am not sure of the numbers that get caught at Lille shuffle, and if the numbers justify the policy

 

[zwk500]

Why couldn't passport checks etc be carried out on the train by officers boarding the train in the station? This happens elsewhere in Europe with no issues

Because if you found somebody who shouldn't be on board who shouldn't be there'd be a large amount of disruption isolating them and getting them off at a station. Also the cost.

 

[alholmes]

I’ve always thought any new operator should look at the feasibility of using the Internatonal platforms at Stratford. Admittedly, it would need a lot of investment at Stratford to reinstate customs and immigration facilities. Ideally, have a ticketing agreement with South Eastern to allow passengers to then use any SE service into St Pancras, after they’ve cleared immigration. Though of course some customers will choose to finish at Stratford anyway. Effectively the Stratford Shuffle, but with more flexibility for passengers after clearing immigration.

Difficulty would be what to do with the train once it has unloaded its passengers. Realistically, the track layout will only feasibly enable it to run empty to St Pancras, otherwise it would have to do some shunts at Stratford. Of course, there’s no reason why the return journey from the UK couldn’t then start at either St Pancras or at Stratford (or both).

 

[StephenHunter]

I think a Stratford-Calais service would have some punters.

Also, I have a fantasy about Nightjet trains from St Pancras...

 

[zwk500]

I’ve always thought any new operator should look at the feasibility of using the Internatonal platforms at Stratford. Admittedly, it would need a lot of investment at Stratford to reinstate customs and immigration facilities. Ideally, have a ticketing agreement with South Eastern to allow passengers to then use any SE service into St Pancras, after they’ve cleared immigration. Though of course some customers will choose to finish at Stratford anyway. Effectively the Stratford Shuffle, but with more flexibility for passengers after clearing immigration.

Difficulty would be what to do with the train once it has unloaded its passengers. Realistically, the track layout will only feasibly enable it to run empty to St Pancras, otherwise it would have to do some shunts at Stratford. Of course, there’s no reason why the return journey from the UK couldn’t then start at either St Pancras or at Stratford (or both).

Stopping short of St Pancras is operationally a bit silly. I can't see any operator wanting to stop at Stratford unless the regional eurostar ever happens, which it won't for the same reasons the ICE service didn't happen