Radio silence from the train guard

[NoOnesFool]

You won’t have your ticket scanned as the Conductor grade are in dispute over it. Revenue teams will scan all tickets and the occasional guard, but all RMT staff are to not scan tickets until a productivity deal comes to some form of fruition

When you say "scanned", do you mean having the ticket hole punched/marked with a pen or do you simply mean read?

 

[yorkie]

When you say "scanned", do you mean having the ticket hole punched/marked with a pen or do you simply mean read?

That refers to the barcode being scanned by a barcode scanner (where applicable; older style paper tickets don't have barcodes)

 

[NoOnesFool]

That refers to the barcode being scanned by a barcode scanner (where applicable; older style paper tickets don't have barcodes)

Thanks for clarifying. I only use paper tickets and only ever will. Perhaps the RMT dispute over this should have its own thread?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for clarifying. I only use paper tickets and only ever will.

e-tickets can be printed on paper and soon enough you will not be able to obtain a ticket that doesn't contain a barcode, but that's for another thread!

Perhaps the RMT dispute over this should have its own thread?

Yes if anyone wishes to create a thread on that topic they are very welcome to do so

 

[Killingworth]

I read this thread and ponder how lucky some are to be able to travel on a TPE train at all. Things are going horridly wrong down here on the South Pennine route.

Within recent memory we had a fairly reliable service of hourly 6 car trains from Sheffield to Manchester. Today no trains or guards to give out any messages to explain what happened between 14.11 and 18.11 and then again until 22.11. Two 4 hour gaps, see; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=TP

Pressure is then on EMR and Northern in particular where local users are struggling to get aboard stopping services.

 

[driverd]

Im not jumping to the defence of this individual. I am fully aware there are staff members who sit in the back cab and do nothing and names spring to mind. At the same time without evidence I am not going to assume the individual on that train was one of those lazy individuals. I offered a lost of suggestions as to what could be the case because I am not going to trial and judge and assume anything. That wouldn't be fair

I appreciate this, but as in my first post, there's only really one reason given that prevents them doing a simple "this is where I am if you need anything" type message.

Maybe in the eyes of someone in that carriage but 3 other carriages did see me working, hence why I wont be jumping to conclusions. However the difference here, I did make announcements, in some cases over riding the auto announcements so they didnt repeat what i had said

Not at all - and as you say, you made announcements and if we got back to the OPs message, it was about the guard being all but invisible.

I don’t really see why anyone would have a problem with leaving announcements to the auto announcer for a routine journey.

People like Julie Berry are paid well for doing announcements precisely because they have a good voice and manner for it, and of course their announcements are provided in text form too for the benefit of those who can’t hear them. I don’t really get why anyone would want to duplicate or replace them (apart from that some people do like the sound of their own voice!).

I know it’s sometimes easier to pick up the handset rather than mess about working out how to play a particular pre-recorded message, but apart from that I’ve always taken the view that manual announcements should be for out-of-course situations only. The worst is where guards reel off massive amounts of routine script (Northern were certainly doing this, and presumably still do?), completely unnecessary, and simply results in people tuning out, which then causes a problem when there’s something important to be heard.

General policy across various TOCs I've worked for is that manual announcements should be the norm, only relying on auto announcer when its not possible to make the announcements manually. As a general principle, the manual PA will override the auto PA, so it's just a case of timing your announcements well. This saves duplication (in the role, I hated the auto announcer duplicating me). The main reason manual announcements are seen as better is because customer feedback suggests clear, friendly, personable announcements are more welcoming and make staff come across as more approachable - in essence, better customer service. Certainly for a long while TPE were so dedicated to customer service, they recruited "Customer Service Professionals - Conductor" rather than just conductor. It also is fair to say a lot of time, effort and research goes into what the consensus is on customer service - so whilst you may personally prefer a generic, auto announcement, the consensus is against you (though its certainly fair to say that not all manual announcements are born equal and the variability in professionalism etc is vast).

Service pattern also plays a role and if you're on a stopper, calling at a small station every 5 minutes, I'd certainly stick to just announcing the big stations as I'd be busy with tickets etc otherwise.

In the vast majority of cases, this isn't about guards liking their own voice. Usually its about professionalism and creating a good atmosphere on the train. Introducing yourself and doing so in a friendly manner makes you approachable to customers. It also reassures those who may be nervous (and there are a good plenty of infrequent travellers who find trains quite overwhelming) and helps to quell anti-social behavior. All the above is further re-inforced by guards patrolling the train.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Service pattern also plays a role and if you're on a stopper, calling at a small station every 5 minutes, I'd certainly stick to just announcing the big stations as I'd be busy with tickets etc otherwise.

Surely this is where auto-announcements are very useful and also allow the SC to spend more time in the cabin, providing customer service and checking tickets. I don't think only announcing the big stations would end well if a passenger was unfamiliar with the route and missed their stop.

 

[driverd]

Surely this is where auto-announcements are very useful and also allow the SC to spend more time in the cabin, providing customer service and checking tickets. I don't think only announcing the big stations would end well if a passenger was unfamiliar with the route and missed their stop.

Thats precisely what I meant - sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Thats precisely what I meant - sorry if that wasn't clear.

Ah I see, you meant leave the smaller stations to the auto-announcer.

 

[driverd]

Ah I see, you meant leave the smaller stations to the auto-announcer.

Yep thats the one! In this regard I always found the auto announcer useful. On many traction types the guard doesn't actually have the ability to turn the auto announcer off - its frequently controlled by the drivers input to the train management system when the unit is brought into service. As such, all you can do is select the manual announcement function at the same time as it attempts to auto announce. In all but one type of traction that I know of, this will override the auto announcement.

The main exception to the above, where the guard can turn the announcer off, would be sprinters with trainfx fitted (thats now most 15x DMUs), however, when the route is terminated by the guard, the drivers console will ask for the route code or train head code to be entered - this means even if the guard shuts off trainfx, the driver will likely just re-enter the code and turn it on again.

 

[lachlan]

Yep thats the one! In this regard I always found the auto announcer useful. On many traction types the guard doesn't actually have the ability to turn the auto announcer off - its frequently controlled by the drivers input to the train management system when the unit is brought into service. As such, all you can do is select the manual announcement function at the same time as it attempts to auto announce. In all but one type of traction that I know of, this will override the auto announcement.

The main exception to the above, where the guard can turn the announcer off, would be sprinters with trainfx fitted (thats now most 15x DMUs), however, when the route is terminated by the guard, the drivers console will ask for the route code or train head code to be entered - this means even if the guard shuts off trainfx, the driver will likely just re-enter the code and turn it on again.

I'm happy for them to do both a human and an automatic announcement, in case one or the other is missed. On trains without auto-announcing, the guard should announce every stop for accesibility reasons but if there is an auto-announcer, I don't mind if the guard remains quiet. Certainly doesn't feel like "radio silence"!

 

[nathanclass323]

Around a year ago, I travelled on an evening EMR service from Matlock to Derby and the guard came down the train just before departure asking everyone where they were getting off (there was only a handful of us on the train mind - and I’m fairly certain everyone was getting off in Derby and no one joined the train elsewhere). Once he’d got through to us at the end of the train and established we were also getting off at Derby, he said he “won’t bother with any announcements then since it’s the last stop anyway”

What’s peoples thoughts on that? Personally it didn’t bother me because I know the route anyway but perhaps it would bother other people?

 

[HullRailMan]

So these back cab surfers are the same guards the RMT would have us believe are vital to have onboard to ensure passenger safety and service, even though they are happy to have no contact with the passengers they are there to look after. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.

I’ve said it before but guards are very well paid for what they do and this dispute over scanning is pathetic. Given the current economic climate in the rail industry and wider economy, the RMT really needs to pick its battles carefully. Instructing their members to hide from passengers just proves that they are dispensable from a customer service point of view which could weaken the case for them even existing long term.

 

[Fokx]

, the RMT really needs to pick its battles carefully. Instructing their members to hide from passengers just proves that they are dispensable from a customer service point of view which could weaken the case for them even existing long term.

They haven’t done that.

Ticket checks, announcements and normal passenger duties continue as normal minus Aztec barcode scanning and overtime

 

[Falcon1200]

So on balance I’m all for having a guard, but do I feel the need for them to act like some kind of playground supervisor by .... constantly walking up and down the train? My answer to that has to be no.

My answer to that has to be yes ! Most if not all of us on here are experienced and confident rail travellers, but many people are not, and if Guards want to justify their jobs it is surely in their own interest to make themselves as visible and useful to as many passengers as possible by walking through the train, not necessarily constantly but certainly regularly (and they should also be checking all tickets without demanding extra payment).

I don’t really see why anyone would have a problem with leaving announcements to the auto announcer for a routine journey.

I do agree with that ! Auto announcements are to a clear and standard format and, of course, leave the Guard free for other duties, as above.....

 

[Edsmith]

I would probably view the lack of announcements as a good thing, some staff make unnecessary announcements and then the auto announcer comes on and repeats much the same thing.

It seems some staff are still reluctant to walk through the train because of covid, or possibly using that as an excuse not to bother.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

So these back cab surfers are the same guards the RMT would have us believe are vital to have onboard to ensure passenger safety and service, even though they are happy to have no contact with the passengers they are there to look after. Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.

I’ve said it before but guards are very well paid for what they do and this dispute over scanning is pathetic. Given the current economic climate in the rail industry and wider economy, the RMT really needs to pick its battles carefully. Instructing their members to hide from passengers just proves that they are dispensable from a customer service point of view which could weaken the case for them even existing long term.

Then you really don't have a clue what is going on then. The only time conductors have been told to limit passenger interaction and remain in cabs was during the height of covid - times when the vast majority of Joe public were told to remain at home and only leave for essential reasons, we remained at work.

Conductors are fairly well paid, but not excessively so given the nature of the job and the unsociable hours which in other industries is paid at enhanced rates.

The reason for the dispute is that technology payments have existed for a long time, so the introduction of a new way of working would traditionally include such a payment. When added to the considerable deduction in additional income through commission due to instant e-tickets and stations with barriers compared to even 4-5 years ago, and the fact that other TOCs are looking at a nominal payment per scan, it's fair for conductors to request similar.

Conductors ARE absolutely vital onboard for many reasons, and safety is their number one priority. Customer service usually comes 2nd or possibly 3rd depending on the TOC. Do not confuse being onboard and in a cab as not doing their job or giving poor customer service.

My answer to that has to be yes ! Most if not all of us on here are experienced and confident rail travellers, but many people are not, and if Guards want to justify their jobs it is surely in their own interest to make themselves as visible and useful to as many passengers as possible by walking through the train, not necessarily constantly but certainly regularly (and they should also be checking all tickets without demanding extra payment).



I do agree with that ! Auto announcements are to a clear and standard format and, of course, leave the Guard free for other duties, as above.....

But it's not always possible to be visible at all times, routes with SDO (BHM-LIV in particular) has no fewer than 4 stops where the guard can ONLY be in the middle cab. This is alternating stops on a large section so you really cannot make it far. You can check between Stafford-Crewe and South Parkway-Lime St sure, but that leaves long periods where it could be said the conductor is hiding away when the reality is far from it.

 

[northwichcat]

No.
No but it’s advisory when the technology fails or there’s disruption.
And no.

As basic announcements, like the destination of the train and the next stop, are required to meet the needs of disabled passengers under the Equalities Act, that urgently needs changing. It definitely needs to be prioritised over any dispute for scanning tickets. I'm sure if an employer breached the Minimum Wage Act the RMT would want that resolving by yesterday, so they should understand the urgency in resolving issues to comply with relevant laws.

It seems some staff are still reluctant to walk through the train because of covid, or possibly using that as an excuse not to bother.

If that's the case I would expect those staff to be taking other precautions as well, like possibly wearing masks at stations or not getting too close to their colleagues when talking to them.

 

[Towers]

Something else worth noting here is that the real-world quality of PA & PIS systems varies massively. Even where auto announcers are fitted, some are far better than others. On older stock sometimes it functions, sometimes not. Even some very new systems can be prone to all manner of weird and wonderful glitches, meaning that the output is sometimes less than useful, or simply not provided at all.

Some older classes still in use also have manual PA systems which are close to hopeless at times. An announcement on some Class 150s for example takes a degree of timing and skill. Hot day, windows open, engines powering, or even the oldschool tread brakes being applied approaching a station, and nobody will hear it. The speakers simply can't overcome the background noise.

Of course, many of the issues arising from a lack of clear announcements - including the realisation that the PA isn't working - can be overcome by a proactive guard who actually ventures up and down the train during the journey!

 

[Fokx]

As basic announcements, like the destination of the train and the next stop, are required to meet the needs of disabled passengers under the Equalities Act, that urgently needs changing. It definitely needs to be prioritised over any dispute for scanning tickets. I'm sure if an employer breached the Minimum Wage Act the RMT would want that resolving by yesterday, so they should understand the urgency in resolving issues to comply with relevant laws.

I completely agree with you but the two are not linked.

As an RMT member who voted in said action I have not been scanning tickets, but I still check them and make manual announcements at stations. Now what I can’t do is speak about other employees or moral which is extremely low at the moment (including my own)

On top of Andy’s excellent list of suggestions why the guard didn’t check tickets, I’d also add the option of the guard being pulled from spare (which is happening a lot due to cancelled trains and no traincrew) and therefore having no machine to check tickets with.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks for clarifying. I only use paper tickets and only ever will. Perhaps the RMT dispute over this should have its own thread?

Many ticket offices have been issuing paper tickets on receipt roll for several years and these have 2D codes on them.