Avanti's serial cancellations of last trains

[dk1]

Delay one of the earlier services by (no more than) one hour and pay the staff overtime as appropriate. It is not acceptable to run 25 of 30 scheduled services, where two of the cancelled services are the last of the day.

If I were in a team struggling due to staff shortages and I refused to deal with an urgent matter because it's "not my problem", the next day on arriving at work I would be handed my P45. I am obliged to act co-operatively and sometimes this means working overtime, for which (not being shift work) I don't get paid.

I expect you will reply that the railway is somehow different, even to safety critical sectors such as healthcare and construction. Perhaps it is different. Perhaps. As a passenger and taxpayer, I don't care.

That is never going to happen on the railway whilst in dispute. It’s akin to being dubbed a ‘scab’. With all respect you seem to be on another planet.

 

[muz379]

Delay one of the earlier services by (no more than) one hour and pay the staff overtime as appropriate. It is not acceptable to run 25 of 30 scheduled services, where two of the cancelled services are the last of the day.

Delaying a service on departure even less than an hour because of a later cancellation is not a valid reason , the staff would be well within their rights to refuse .

If I were in a team struggling due to staff shortages and I refused to deal with an urgent matter because it's "not my problem", the next day on arriving at work I would be handed my P45. I am obliged to act co-operatively and sometimes this means working overtime, for which (not being shift work) I don't get paid.

If that part about getting your P45 for refusing overtime to resolve an issue that is not your making is true personally id leave that industry ASAP .

I appreciate it is not great on passengers , but if you are booked to work the second to last train , you work the second to last train , not a train at or close to the time the last one would be .

 

[D1537]

Last Glasgow-Euston (1M18) cancelled at Preston, along with 9M19 to Birmingham just behind it. 9M62 to Birmingham the only remaining southbound, which is useless if you want Euston and hasn't left Preston yet anyway (due off 2117).

9M62 also cancelled at Preston, which means the last three ex-Scotland services never made it past Preston. Interesting to know what happened to the pax off all three of them?

 

[class397tpe]

But if there’s no crew & a work to rule, what can they do?

Perhaps in times like these where they can't get guards for a service etc., they could train up drivers to run it fully driver-operated, so the service still runs.
i.e. trains would still be timetabled to run with guards, but drivers would have the correct training so they can still run the service if the guard is unavailable.
You'd probably have incredible opposition from the unions though.

 

[43066]

Perhaps in times like these where they can't get guards for a service etc., they could train up drivers to run it fully driver-operated, so the service still runs.
i.e. trains would still be timetabled to run with guards, but drivers would have the correct training so they can still run the service if the guard is unavailable.
You'd probably have incredible opposition from the unions though.

It already happens from time to time. If there’s no guard you run ECS until a point where a guard can join the train.

 

[class397tpe]

It already happens from time to time. If there’s no guard you run ECS until a point where a guard can join the train.

Could regulation be changed so it doesn't have to be ECS? What exactly is dangerous to the passengers.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps in times like these where they can't get guards for a service etc., they could train up drivers to run it fully driver-operated, so the service still runs.
i.e. trains would still be timetabled to run with guards, but drivers would have the correct training so they can still run the service if the guard is unavailable.
You'd probably have incredible opposition from the unions though.

Not sure what ‘times like these’ actually mean but I am finding it hard to keep a straight face with comments like this.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It’s almost like this thread is a collision between the passengers of the railway and those who work on the railway.

Personally, expecting DOO on an intercity service is ludicrous - Avanti need to be authorised to hire the staff they need to run the service.

Coincidentally, my Trenitalia service was also cancelled earlier today due to lack of staff. It was the only cancellation on the line all day.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Not sure what ‘times like these’ actually mean but I am finding it hard to keep a straight face with comments like this.

I’d try and hold that laugh in a bit longer if I were you because I’m sure there are people with a lot more influence than those on a railway forum looking at the absolute nonsense currently happening on the railway thinking along the same, or more radical, lines.

 

[dk1]

I’d try and hold that laugh in a bit longer if I were you because I’m sure there are people with a lot more influence than those on a railway forum looking at the absolute nonsense currently happening on the railway thinking along the same, or more radical, lines.

Oh please!!!

 

[Pinus contorta]

They're running a "Good service", with a prominent green tick, according to the homepage of their website: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/

I often see this on the home or journey check page of the TOC in question with the green tick. then when you scroll down to individual lines of said TOC performances it often says 4 or 5 cancelled trains today. So does it need to be a certain percentage of trains of the overall daily timetable to trigger "severe disruption" ? Sometimes it just looks like they are telling porkie pies. Or am I just misunderstanding how it works?

 

[43066]

Could regulation be changed so it doesn't have to be ECS? What exactly is dangerous to the passengers.

Not really, for one thing there’d be nobody to dispatch at most locations.

Delay one of the earlier services by (no more than) one hour and pay the staff overtime as appropriate. It is not acceptable to run 25 of 30 scheduled services, where two of the cancelled services are the last of the day.

It doesn’t work like that. I work the services I’m booked to work and no others. I might agree to do something different if asked nicely but if you ask me to finish my shift an hour or two late to run the last service that simply isn’t going to happen. It *definitely* isn’t going to happen if there’s a dispute running and people are working to rule.

Plus once you hold people back to work the last service, you potentially lose those same people for the services they’re due to work on their next shift.

absolute nonsense currently happening on the railway

Such as?

 

[wobman]

Could regulation be changed so it doesn't have to be ECS? What exactly is dangerous to the passengers.

There's no guard on the unit and they can't run DOO, so it runs as ECS until a guard is available. The number 1 priority on the railway is safety

I’d try and hold that laugh in a bit longer if I were you because I’m sure there are people with a lot more influence than those on a railway forum looking at the absolute nonsense currently happening on the railway thinking along the same, or more radical, lines.

What would be your plan for the railways? I'm intrigued how much experience you have on the railways?

 

[dk1]

What would be your plan for the railways? I'm intrigued how much experience you have on the railways?

I wouldn’t hold your breath on that one.

 

[wobman]

I wouldn’t hold your breath on that one.

I'm genuinely intrigued as to what knowledge people that make these claims have of how the railways run, avanti like most Tocs have inherited real problems post covid, there's no magic solution out there that some claim.

Obviously the Virgin PR team were better than the Avanti PR team, as now they are not blameless like virgin used to be in the eyes of the travelling public.

 

[Kite159]

I often see this on the home or journey check page of the TOC in question with the green tick. then when you scroll down to individual lines of said TOC performances it often says 4 or 5 cancelled trains today. So does it need to be a certain percentage of trains of the overall daily timetable to trigger "severe disruption" ? Sometimes it just looks like they are telling porkie pies. Or am I just misunderstanding how it works?

They are running a good service of their planned timetable of the day...

... They just fudge the performance figures by making sure any cancelled trains are cancelled the day before so don't form part of the timetable of the day (and so they can attempt to avoid paying out delay repay)

 

[wobman]

They are running a good service of their planned timetable of the day...

... They just fudge the performance figures by making sure any cancelled trains are cancelled the day before so don't form part of the timetable of the day (and so they can attempt to avoid paying out delay repay)

I've heard avanti have asked / paid other tocs to run there services to save cancellation fine, it's interesting if its actually true. Its can help fudge there performance figures.

 

[Pinus contorta]

They are running a good service of their planned timetable of the day...

... They just fudge the performance figures by making sure any cancelled trains are cancelled the day before so don't form part of the timetable of the day (and so they can attempt to avoid paying out delay repay)

Ah yes. I am kind of aware of this anomaly of the system with TPexpress when I have tried to use the eaerly morning train from Oxenholme that is supposed to run to/from Liverpool but often gets canxelled the night before or is inputted into Real Time Trains booked to start at Preston that occasionally gets canned the night before.

 

[All Line Rover]

I work the services I’m booked to work and no others. I might agree to do something different if asked nicely but if you ask me to finish my shift an hour or two late to run the last service that simply isn’t going to happen.

For clarity (perhaps this was clear, perhaps this wasn't), I meant that e.g. a 20.00 should still run, but have its departure time delayed by control by 60 mins to cater for a cancelled 21.00. The driver would still be operating the service they are booked for, no different from if the service was delayed by 60 mins because of reasons outside a train operator's control, such as signalling problems.

It *definitely* isn’t going to happen if there’s a dispute running and people are working to rule.

Not my problem. Has no bearing on my opinion.

 

[Moonshot]

It's currently a poor service which will only get worse. Should really cut services down to 1 per hour out on both Birmingham and Manchester routes......and charge premium fares to cut down on overcrowding

 

[317 forever]

The blame lies with the transport secretary (Shapps) and his former minister (Heaton Harris), and the two DfT rail executives (Kelly, Oudahar) who awarded this contract.

FirstGroup.... "Transforming travel".

Give them credit, certainly does what is says on the tin.

In this instance FirstGroup are transforming travel, but making it a lot less reliable.

I had booked on the 18.20 from Euston to Stockport last night. However, both this and the following train was cancelled. I asked to board the 18.07 Liverpool service and they let me on. However, other cancellations and delays meant I had to wait an hour there for a connection back to Stockport.

Although I may have reached Stockport later than had I waited at Euston for the next direct train - probably but not necessarily 19.00 - the consolation was that I did get a seat on both my trains. The 19.00 train would almost certainly have been rammed.

 

[Bantamzen]

That is never going to happen on the railway whilst in dispute. It’s akin to being dubbed a ‘scab’. With all respect you seem to be on another planet.

Quite honestly if this is still a thing amongst railway staff then that is as much as a problem as any management issues.

 

[muz379]

I’d try and hold that laugh in a bit longer if I were you because I’m sure there are people with a lot more influence than those on a railway forum looking at the absolute nonsense currently happening on the railway thinking along the same, or more radical, lines.

If that is the case it just goes to show what little idea some of the new entrants into management on the railway have about actually you know running a railway . And really things are going to get much worse before they get better if that is the case and the DFT dont come up with someone with some operational understanding to reign this in .

Trying to train drivers up on a completely new working during times of chronic staff shortages and massive discontent among staff is bound to make matters much worse for reasons that should be entirely obvious . Not to mention someone needs to find the cheque book if they want drivers to accept changes to working practices like this .

 

[Dr Hoo]

Can anyone flesh out the hard maths of the train crew shortage please. E.g. sizes of vacancy gaps, training backlogs, length of recruitment freezes, volume of retirement ‘spikes’ or whatever. Any depots particularly affected?
Thanks

 

[flitwickbeds]

For clarity (perhaps this was clear, perhaps this wasn't), I meant that e.g. a 20.00 should still run, but have its departure time delayed by control by 60 mins to cater for a cancelled 21.00. The driver would still be operating the service they are booked for, no different from if the service was delayed by 60 mins because of reasons outside a train operator's control, such as signalling problems.

In the event of a signal failure or other genuine delay reason, it might be that the driver/crew will go over legal hours - that would usually result in either full cancellation of the train or an amended calling pattern to skip stops to make up as much time as possible to avoid them going over hours. And skip-stopping the last train inconveniences almost as many people as cancelling it.

 

[dk1]

Quite honestly if this is still a thing amongst railway staff then that is as much as a problem as any management issues.

It will always be a thing. There is no point being in a union if you go your own way.

 

[wobman]

In the event of a signal failure or other genuine delay reason, it might be that the driver/crew will go over legal hours - that would usually result in either full cancellation of the train or an amended calling pattern to skip stops to make up as much time as possible to avoid them going over hours. And skip-stopping the last train inconveniences almost as many people as cancelling it.

Also this can effect the next day's services as the traincrew will need their 12hrs between shifts, so they may be unable to catch the next day's work.

I often have just my 12hrs between shifts, so a delay the day before can effect the next day's work.
That's why I say quite often that the railways are far more complicated than people outside the industry realise.

 

[Bantamzen]

It will always be a thing. There is no point being in a union if you go your own way.

The whole "scab" culture is something that should be left back in the 1980s where it belongs. If it still exists today it needs stamping out because it did the TU movement no favours, and caused way more damage than it solved.

 

[muz379]

For clarity (perhaps this was clear, perhaps this wasn't), I meant that e.g. a 20.00 should still run, but have its departure time delayed by control by 60 mins to cater for a cancelled 21.00. The driver would still be operating the service they are booked for, no different from if the service was delayed by 60 mins because of reasons outside a train operator's control, such as signalling problems.

It was clear what you meant , but that's not a legitimate delay reason. Traincrew would be well within their rights to refuse . Depending on terms and conditions they might not even be obliged to work an hour's overtime .

Bodging your operation like this isn't a good way to harbour positive industrial relations and would cause more harm than good.

I appreciate you are looking for a solution to last trains being cancelled but that is not it

 

[dk1]

The whole "scab" culture is something that should be left back in the 1980s where it belongs. If it still exists today it needs stamping out because it did the TU movement no favours, and caused way more damage than it solved.

The being ‘sent to Coventry’ is often worse. I know of people who have broken strikes who still only get spoken to where it’s essential safety critical conversations only & that even years later still do not sit in the same messroom as everyone else. That’s not always a bad thing however lol.