East Coast Eureka clockface timetable May 2011

[swt_passenger]

as of last month the 0609 bath spa - edinburgh became a single voyager where as it always used to be 2

That's the sort of thing I was expecting. Unless anyone has access to before and after diagrams for the XC fleet though, and is willing to share them with us, I guess we'll never know the actual details.

I'm still sticking with 'no extra HST' though - especially as the rail media are running stories about a permanent transfer of a set from MML to ECML...

 

[Failed Unit]

When you consider that removing Glasgow only saves 1 unit for east coast and most routes are getting an increase in frequency you can see why no stock will leave east coast.

Look at it another way if east coast save 1 set by leaving Glasgow, they give that set to XC why leave Glasgow in the first place?

 

[tbtc]

if east coast save 1 set by leaving Glasgow, they give that set to XC why leave Glasgow in the first place?

1. It would make EC services simpler, operationally

2. XC could use a Voyager on the Glasgow trips, which would still have plenty spare seats, and a donated HST from EC on busier routes

3. XC serving Glasgow means direct services from Glasgow to places not currently served by direct trains. The EC service to London only serves Peterborough (some journeys) and London (which has an improved WCML service, going up to hourly over the years)

4. Voyagers would be better for the Glasgow runs as they can run via Shotts etc if the Carstairs line is unavailable)

5. If EC aren't running to Lincoln every two hours then they won't need as many units

I guess the subtext is that EC aren't getting the 180s for the new services, so need to keep HSTs, which means nothing spare for XC - and XC "apparently" can't use 180s through Birmingham (?)

 

[Damien1986]

DaveNewcastle - post 91 makes a good point that people heading to Glasgow will consider the service significantly downgraded even if it is still direct.

When travelling now from Edinburgh - Leeds I always avoid XC services and change at York. Why?

1. Ability to work. XC voyagers block mobile signals very well. They haven't had the modifications virgins have so you get very limited use of your mobile phone and 3G card. No wi-fi either.
2. Catering. East coast provide it XC don't.
3. Price. On AP tickets east coast always win. I often use the 0800 service the XC service behind is the HST. Lots of empty seats but still none that are close in price to east coast. I change trains and take 5 mins longer to save £15 each way!

Someone doing Newcastle - Glasgow has lost 2.5hours productive working time as the now either need to change at Waverley for a couple of trains with decent facalities or sit in the wireless and catering free voyager.

Don't know if the average punter will care, but I guess the station retail outlets at Glasgow will enjoy the boom of people stocking up before they leave.

Crosscountry do provide catering but in the form of a trolley rather than a buffet if that's what you mean although I would prefer Crosscountry to have a full buffet service!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

When you consider that removing Glasgow only saves 1 unit for east coast and . . . . .

Look at it another way if east coast save 1 set by leaving Glasgow, they give that set to XC why leave Glasgow in the first place?

As one EC person enthusiastically boasted to me during the week, by running just the one service through to Glasgow each day, the company still gets a proportion of all rail travel revenue between the cities (that's all the inter-available tickets between Glasgow -Edinburgh and further south, all the way to London and connections beyond).
That's the joy of ORCATS.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm still sticking with 'no extra HST' though - especially as the rail media are running stories about a permanent transfer of a set from MML to ECML...

That's a done deal now - paperwork signed at the start of the year. Only issue left to be resolved is the maintenance; operationally EC want it to be re-engined and Mallard works done as well, then transferred to Craigentinny. However the £ department are telling them they can't do that, and that the best option is to let it remain as part of Neville Hill's fleet, let them do the maintenance as Craigentinny know nowt on VP185s and that interior etc, and just repaint it.

 

[RichW1]

This timetable is vast improvement on the old where you still had to look for the time of your train. I know this isn't exactly 100% clockface but it's 95% there and that's good enough for me. Service wise this will be an absolute winner in terms of structure on the ECML and running a railway predictably and better.

However, on a sentimental note, WCML is the 'premier railway' NOT East Coast as literature would have us believe! I know they used to be but they can't carry on claiming a title that's no longer theirs!! There's no York in 1hr44mins anymore and so they can't claim fastest headline timing over Virgin's 1hr43 to Warrington on every service. Also, frequency is better but Anglo-Scottish services do now match WCML on average speed if we take 4hr20 for 393 miles on East Coast and 4hr25 for 401miles on West Coast.

I do think this is the best timetable the ECML has ever had in terms of running a predictable organised timetable - however, it seems to achieve this we have to lose headline times which I'm ok with as unless it's possible to run more than 1 service at those headline times it seems a bit pointless if you lose other paths doing it.

FOOTNOTE: East Coast really does need to sort its corporate identity out - now we'll have East Coast NXEA livery on HST's, old East Coast livery on 91's (except for 1 with new east coast livery) and I'm not sure when or if any of the others are getting painted? Now we'll have an East Midlands liveried train which even if painted will have an interior at odds with the rest!! Then on top there'll be the trains used for Lincoln which I bet won't be branded right at the beginning if at all for the remainder of the national ownership!!! It's a real brand image mess even if they're running the railway well!

 

[brompton rail]

There is only one train per day to / from Lincoln, so no stock is needed. Isn't this why EC declined the 5class 180's? If they are to take on the EMT HST (which I thought was only to cover for Mark 4 repainting) not to convert it to be a full 'member' of the EC fleet seems very short sighted indeed. Odd seats, no wi-fi, catering facilities non standard? Why not repainting and re seat, as it will have to be done sometime anyway?

 

[Aictos]

That's a done deal now - paperwork signed at the start of the year. Only issue left to be resolved is the maintenance; operationally EC want it to be re-engined and Mallard works done as well, then transferred to Craigentinny. However the £ department are telling them they can't do that, and that the best option is to let it remain as part of Neville Hill's fleet, let them do the maintenance as Craigentinny know nowt on VP185s and that interior etc, and just repaint it.

Pardon for asking but rather then transferring the set, wouldn't it had been better for all if it remained simply on long term loan to East Coast especially as they've been told it's not being re-engined or refurbished to Mallard interiors?

The other thing as well is could it not be used on the Lincoln workings solely and use the native EC. HSTs for the other workings?

 

[Failed Unit]

Will it gain an extra coach and if it will where from?

 

[Deerfold]

I did say details had been revealed to local regions where something applied to them. Elaine Holt has just revealed a new service to Harrogate.

It was also revealed there would be an additional service for Berwick, Alnmouth & Morpeth in the mornings. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10302076

There have been quite a lot of things revealed since February.

The weekend timetable wasn't due to be in-line for as big a shakeup.

I still don't understand why they're not letting us know *where they said they would* when they haven't told people they won't be doing. Isn't that fairly bad PR? Should we have to read the right papers/websites to find out?

We'd also get the story direct - the discussion here suggests the BBC story is inaccurate but we can't check!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair enough if East Coast managed to free up one HST (due to cutting the Glasgow work, not needing a diesel to run to Lincoln every two hours, and using 225s on the Skipton duty...) then that'd be a fair swap (a Voyager would cope with the Glasgow - ECML loadings, an HST would be more use to XC elsewhere and East Coast free up a 225). However, asking XC to stretch their resources thinner (whilst East Coast introduce additional services) is hard to accept!

Unfortuntely the Skipton line can't support a 225 (not at the same time as all the other trains anyway) - in the rare case the 1803 out of London is run by one it doesn't run north of Leeds.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unfortuntely the Skipton line can't support a 225 (not at the same time as all the other trains anyway)

It's been reported elsewhere on this forum that work has been completed that will allow the Skipton line to support a 225. The freed up HST we instead be providing an evening service to Harrogate. I think this change over is happening in the next few weeks (though I assume the Harrogate service won't be introduced until the next timetable change).

 

[TomJ93]

A nice little ORCATs raid there by EC

But really the Glasgow trains suffered the same problem as VT did by stopping at MK and WJ regularly. People were using them to hop short distances when an alternative is available.

Regarding the MML HST I thought all of them had the same engines by now? (MTUs)

 

[ainsworth74]

Regarding the MML HST I thought all of them had the same engines by now? (MTUs)

EMT (or was it MML at the time?) decided to be different and fit VP185s rather than MTUs.

 

[Deerfold]

It's been reported elsewhere on this forum that work has been completed that will allow the Skipton line to support a 225. The freed up HST we instead be providing an evening service to Harrogate. I think this change over is happening in the next few weeks (though I assume the Harrogate service won't be introduced until the next timetable change).

I'd missed that but will look forward to it as I'l be getting the 1803 regularly soon.

 

[RichW1]

I see all the services to York non-stop are 1hr 51. The fastest Edinburgh timing is still 4hr 13 without a 1hr44 minute timing to York. Does anyone know if 1 or 2 of these services are likely to get to York 5 mins early or are these pathed so tightly that it would be unlikely to happen?

 

[Damien1986]

Would anyone agree that the extra Crosscountry services proposed are good compensation for the loss of the East Coast services from Glasgow?

 

[me123]

I would. I know there's issues with the Voyagers in relation to baggage space and being able to work/use a mobile phone etc, but they're better suited to the loadings from Motherwell and will link Glasgow to some new destinations in the North of England, such as Leeds and Sheffield. Also remember that on the whole the Airdrie-Bathgate line is going to take a lot of people from the Motherwell route where a choice exists, and the faster Shotts line services will help with this as well I'm sure.

 

[Invincibles]

Would anyone agree that the extra Crosscountry services proposed are good compensation for the loss of the East Coast services from Glasgow?

So they are not extra any more?

I would suggest they are appropriate for loadings on this route and indeed would be for other routes in Scotland currently operated by EC. Have to confess to not thinking about wifi and mobile signal though as most of the work I do on trains is paperwork and wifi only serves as a distraction

 

[tbtc]

Would anyone agree that the extra Crosscountry services proposed are good compensation for the loss of the East Coast services from Glasgow?

Yes, *if* XC gain an extra unit to allow them to run this extension. Otherwise it's spreading XC even thinner...

 

[silentone]

I still don't understand why they're not letting us know *where they said they would* when they haven't told people they won't be doing. Isn't that fairly bad PR? Should we have to read the right papers/websites to find out?

We'd also get the story direct - the discussion here suggests the BBC story is inaccurate but we can't check!

What do you need to know???? Nothing is changing that badly that you're life depends on it! The published article by, not just, the BBC is really only relevant to those who stay in that region. Why someone in Lincoln would need to know that is a mystery.

People have also assumed that article is wrong based on the draft timetable. From what I've seen the 0559 from Berwick will travel ECS from either Edinburgh or Newcastle and the fast service from Edinburgh calling at Newcastle only will connect with it at Newcastle. That fast service is now timed to leave Edinburgh at 0540 arriving into London at 0940. Both of these services will arrive into Newcastle within minutes of each other. (as it stood whenever I saw the diagram, I posted this earlier in the thread.)

 

[Deerfold]

What do you need to know???? Nothing is changing that badly that you're life depends on it! The published article by, not just, the BBC is really only relevant to those who stay in that region. Why someone in Lincoln would need to know that is a mystery.

People have also assumed that article is wrong based on the draft timetable. From what I've seen the 0559 from Berwick will travel ECS from either Edinburgh or Newcastle and the fast service from Edinburgh calling at Newcastle only will connect with it at Newcastle. That fast service is now timed to leave Edinburgh at 0540 arriving into London at 0940. Both of these services will arrive into Newcastle within minutes of each other. (as it stood whenever I saw the diagram, I posted this earlier in the thread.)

You seem to be missing my point that I'm disappointed that East Coast aren't doing what they said they'd do. They said they'd be keeping us updated but aren't, they're taking a completely different (and apparently drip-feed) approach to releasing information.

I travel quite a lot. It's largely on one route, but not exclusively. A direct service from London to Harrogate would be useful to me on occasion, not just to people who live in Harrogate (and perhaps there might be those who travel to the North East who don't live there). You've also ignored my point that we know nothing about weekends - there's been rumours that the hours of operation will expand quite a lot but no official indication.

There are things in my life that are planned more than 4 months in advance. Some of these are at weekends - it'd be useful to know if I'm likely to need a hotel after some of them or if there may be a train back.

My local bus company changed its times (including getting rid of the last bus in one direction) in the middle of last year and gave a month's notice. It still disrupted some of my plans a little as I'd planned things assuming it would stay put. Changes to long distance trains may change more than me needing a short taxi ride.

You may be more spontaneous in your life and not find these things useful to know.

I'm about to buy a season ticket for London - Keighley. If the London-Bradford or London - Skipton services are to change it affects the attractiveness of the services for me.

 

[DarloRich]

That's a done deal now - paperwork signed at the start of the year. Only issue left to be resolved is the maintenance; operationally EC want it to be re-engined and Mallard works done as well, then transferred to Craigentinny. However the £ department are telling them they can't do that, and that the best option is to let it remain as part of Neville Hill's fleet, let them do the maintenance as Craigentinny know nowt on VP185s and that interior etc, and just repaint it.

I hope they DONT do the interior of that set - it is by far the most comfortable HST on EC. It is still in the old HST layout, with the old (bigger?) seats - it is just like the old days! lol

I am suprised EC dont try and get another HST of EMT. They arent used by them that intensivley. BTW it seems senible to leave it at Neville Hill as they have the knowledge on the engine type etc. Why spend money on a new engine when it will be someone elses problem soon!

 

[swt_passenger]

I see all the services to York non-stop are 1hr 51. The fastest Edinburgh timing is still 4hr 13 without a 1hr44 minute timing to York. Does anyone know if 1 or 2 of these services are likely to get to York 5 mins early or are these pathed so tightly that it would be unlikely to happen?

Where are you getting your times from please?

That NR timetable on ORR's site linked at the start of this thread is well over a year old, and is supposed to be considered a 'work in progress' - it also predates the DfT asking for a sub 4 hour Edinburgh to London service.

 

[RichW1]

Really? Ok well I'll await another version then; I was referring to the one you stated.

 

[Damien1986]

I would. I know there's issues with the Voyagers in relation to baggage space and being able to work/use a mobile phone etc, but they're better suited to the loadings from Motherwell and will link Glasgow to some new destinations in the North of England, such as Leeds and Sheffield. Also remember that on the whole the Airdrie-Bathgate line is going to take a lot of people from the Motherwell route where a choice exists, and the faster Shotts line services will help with this as well I'm sure.

Furthermore would you agree that not only are they good compensation they are in fact -considering we only have 2 crosscountry services a day,each way,7 days a week -are restoring the huge number of crosscountry services that we used to have but lost due to so called "improvements" on the network. Remember there used to be a 1230 Glasgow to Poole via Manchester and 1633 Glasgow to London Paddington before Virgin decided to cutback on these services.Crosscountry should and must be applauded for their stance!

 

[tbtc]

Furthermore would you agree that not only are they good compensation they are in fact -considering we only have 2 crosscountry services a day,each way,7 days a week -are restoring the huge number of crosscountry services that we used to have but lost due to so called "improvements" on the network. Remember there used to be a 1230 Glasgow to Poole via Manchester and 1633 Glasgow to London Paddington before Virgin decided to cutback on these services.Crosscountry should and must be applauded for their stance!

The new XC services from Glasgow won't be to Poole or London Paddington

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes, *if* XC gain an extra unit to allow them to run this extension. Otherwise it's spreading XC even thinner...

That was never going to the plan as you have said on other posts. Even if the Lincoln services had happened these would have used the 180s, no HST or 91s would have got released.

It will take 1 extra XC set to do Glasgow, so you are right somewhere will lose a double set as a result. But XC have known about this for a while so they must be confident they could do it otherwise they would not have extended services to Southampton.

XC is turning into a strange franchise basically on the ECML doing the service that no-one else wants to. I think the moving of Glasgow services to them is a bit of a rob Peter to pay Paul. Yes Sheffield and Derby will gain direct trains to Glasgow, but significantly slower than changing at Doncaster (or York). The loss of the Peterborough stops makes a big difference to East Anglia.

To me if XC are stuggling with units perhaps the timetable should have cut back some services on the ECML which also carry a lot of fresh air. Now they have diverted the Newcastle via Doncaster services on Alternate hours via Leeds maybe they should have capped it at Leeds.

 

[me123]

Furthermore would you agree that not only are they good compensation they are in fact -considering we only have 2 crosscountry services a day,each way,7 days a week -are restoring the huge number of crosscountry services that we used to have but lost due to so called "improvements" on the network. Remember there used to be a 1230 Glasgow to Poole via Manchester and 1633 Glasgow to London Paddington before Virgin decided to cutback on these services.Crosscountry should and must be applauded for their stance!

Not really, because as tbtc has said, they probably won't serve a variety of destinations. It's likely that they'll all go through to Plymouth. Whilst a direct train to there is good, you'll have to remember that it takes the scenic route and you will probably be quicker changing at Birmingham New Street (should you choose to do so).

It's a case of swings and roundabouts. Whilst we gain direct links to Leeds, Sheffield and Derby, we lose a number of direct trains to Doncaster and Peterborough, as well as a service to a second London terminal. I do personally think that the range of XC destinations served will benefit Glasgow (and indeed those cities), but others will disagree. There's no "yay" or "nay" answer for this one.

All that's needed, to be honest, is the retention of the existing Motherwell-Edinburgh services. The rest is just "nice to have".

 

[Failed Unit]

All that's needed, to be honest, is the retention of the existing Motherwell-Edinburgh services. The rest is just "nice to have".

That is an interesting point, I wonder if what was offered was an hourly Glasgow Central - North Berwick service what the reaction would be like. Would hourly to Edinburgh be more important to someone from Motherwell than every other hour to Newcastle and beyond?

Do many people travel from Motherwell - Kings Cross.

As for whether XC or East Coast destinations are better for Motherwell passengers that will always be open for debate. The one change I don't think will be popular is the change in the evening service. Currently about 1740 from Edinburgh but this will now be earlier (about 1720) so a few people may be having to leave work a little earlier (or some may not be hanging around as much)