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Rail strikes discussion

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mike57

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That's not how tax brackets work. You only pay the higher rate of tax on the income above the relevant threshold. There are some edge cases where a payrise might have a negative impact (e.g. if you are using all of your savings allowance, which drops immediately from £1000 as soon as you're a higher rate taxpayer).

But by and large you will never lose out by earning more. And in any case, this could happen regardless of the exact percentage/amount of the increase.
There is a nasty little 'gotcha' if you earn close the the point where you pay higher tax (just over 50k per year) and your wife/husband/partner either doesn't work or earns less than around £10k pa. If your earnings are just below the threshold you can claim the marriage allowance, which is worth about £250 per year, but even £1 above the threshold and you lose the whole of the £250.
 
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irish_rail

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I’m quickly reaching the stage where I’m going to leave the union. I’ve not been balloted yet but it’s coming, and I just can’t afford to strike.
I can't afford it either. But as sure as anything if my colleagues vote to strike ill do the decent thing and walk out. Why? Because when that ineveitable payrise is eventually won , I will have played my part and not been a freeloader. If everyone thought like you we would be on half the money we are on now.
So by all means leave the union, but you can thank the rest of us when a pay award is won. And don't forget there are still drivers who won't talk to drivers who came to work in 1982, folk have long memories.
 

footprints

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I expect you’ll rapidly see a different side once you see for yourself how important and beneficial the unions are and how badly they’re misrepresented. They’re relevant to so many aspects of the railway and its operation, with strikes just being the tip of the iceberg when things go wrong - also very much the last resort rather than the first.
The RMT have reportedly balloted for strike action 204 times in the past three years. It's demonstrably very much the first resort rather than the last.
 

43096

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No, no, no. We love drivers, work with them everyday. It's their backstabbing union I hate.
But those drivers are the union. We keep being told that these disputes are what the staff want as they voted for them. Same applies for the union itself: it’s the membership who vote in the leaders who set the policy.
 

OliverReed

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My problem is waste. There’s plenty of money for a pay deal.

The TOC I work for has sent an absolute rainforest of crap through my letterbox in the last month. Tons of glossy brochures and printed books. All stuff I could read as a PDF on my iPhone. If we are all nationalised why has every operator got an internal comms/ PR/ Marketing dept? The duplication of roles on the railway is insane.

Also if directors can’t make a decision without the DfT signing off. Why are we paying them £10 million a year?

That’s what annoys me. If the cupboard is truly bare. Stop posting **** through my letterbox every week.

Regarding the untapped staff coming for my job. Ha ha! Just before Xmas I had to clean a man’s stomach contents off my wheelchair space. It appeared he’d eaten nothing but Tuna and red wine. This was followed by dealing with another violent drunk upset about a phone call. All you armchair experts are more than welcome to come and work Saturday trains which are essentially like Zoo’s on wheels. I can sit on the sidelines with a stopwatch to see how long it takes for you to be chinned.

I’m retiring in two years. It can’t come fast enough.
 
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wobman

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The RMT have reportedly balloted for strike action 204 times in the past three years. It's demonstrably very much the first resort rather than the last.
How many times has there actually been any strike action out of the 204 ballots? That would be a better comparison, ballot v strike action.
 

43096

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How many times has there actually been any strike action out of the 204 ballots? That would be a better comparison, ballot v strike action.
Not in the context of what was being replied to, it wouldn’t.
 

Gems

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But those drivers are the union. We keep being told that these disputes are what the staff want as they voted for them. Same applies for the union itself: it’s the membership who vote in the leaders who set the policy.
So every time Mick Whelan has made a decision it is because drivers wanted it? Umm, well it is a good line to put forward in an argument, but it doesn't hold up water does it. Just like the argument that all those in the RMT who voted 'No' wanted it. ASLEF sadly has a track record of trying to put one over on the other unions for it's own members gains. You could argue there is nothing wrong in this, and they are just trying to get the best for it's members. But is this really what trade union principles are about? Workers ****ting all other other workers? You see, some of us take this line not because we just don't like something such as a union, but because we see it take place.

If you are going to support the argument that ASLEF are doing nothing wrong, then lets not hear anymore about non striking members going into work. That is their democratic right also.
 

JohntyRogers

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This thread is the perfect epitome of why big business continue to make record profits despite a "cost of living crisis" and why government get away with giving themselves pay rises during record inflation whilst telling all the countries workers no.... The problem is us, a payrise for any worker in any industry is a win now, it weakens the status quo. Be it train driver, signaller, nurse, teacher, fireman. We will all end up broke unless we stop sniping each other. The state doesn't want us having any money anymore, just continuously feeding the debt system to sustain the banking system we have.
 

Gems

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My views on the RMT were formed back in 2016. Obviously I supported the strike on Northern about conductor roles, but it was this piece in the link below that stuck in my gullet.


Never in all my life have I read such guff. Everyone of those arguments could have, and now probably will be implemented by a Tory government. Even Jeremy Corbyn indirectly warned the RMT were wrong. This convinced me that the RMT is led by donkeys.
But this raises my second point. Why has the RMT never had a conversation with it's members what public ownership of the railways would mean. Tell me a single profession in public ownership that has managed to get a good pay deal out of their government masters? Why on earth did the RMT think it could get anything better? Yet on and on they go about public owned railways.

RMT members to me are like sheep following the ram, eventually the ram will f*** you over. And that process has now begun.
 

SignallerJohn

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Drivers won't strike. Too many Audis and BMWs in the station car parks to be paid for. ASLEF could have balloted at the same time and given leverage. Instead they let cleaners take on the fight.
I saw 10 BMWs in Tesco earlier and actual Tesco workers got into them. This is disgusting who do they think they are driving a car to work! Let alone a high end one! Disgusting!!! overpaid are those supermarket workers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

My views on the RMT were formed back in 2016. Obviously I supported the strike on Northern about conductor roles, but it was this piece in the link below that stuck in my gullet.


Never in all my life have I read such guff. Everyone of those arguments could have, and now probably will be implemented by a Tory government. Even Jeremy Corbyn indirectly warned the RMT were wrong. This convinced me that the RMT is led by donkeys.
But this raises my second point. Why has the RMT never had a conversation with it's members what public ownership of the railways would mean. Tell me a single profession in public ownership that has managed to get a good pay deal out of their government masters? Why on earth did the RMT think it could get anything better? Yet on and on they go about public owned railways.

RMT members to me are like sheep following the ram, eventually the ram will f*** you over. And that process has now begun.
Don’t be sour, come join us
 

Gems

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I saw 10 BMWs in Tesco earlier and actual Tesco workers got into them. This is disgusting who do they think they are driving a car to work! Let alone a high end one! Disgusting!!! overpaid are those supermarket workers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Don’t be sour, come join us
Nah. I'm happy to go into work. I don't like listening to the uneducated on the picket lines spouted by those who unknown to themselves will end up back at work a few weeks down the line. Poorer, bitter, and blaming all and sunder for their errors of judgement.
 
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NI 271

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Not in the context of what was being replied to, it wouldn’t.
This is true. However, as you are providing a figure without any context, your statement is wholly inaccurate. For what you said to be true "It's demonstrably very much the first resort" then those ballots would have to have been issued as the initial response to the FIRST mention of any proposal pertinent to them.

Not even 0.0001% a chance that is the case. The hyperbole and utter fabrication contained on these threads (people using things they've simply dreamed up because they don't understand that fantasy doesn't bolster their argument to the real world, which can deal only in facts) is quite something to behold. Demonstrably very much the first resort? You'll have no problem demonstrating this then. Go on, demonstrate it.
 

43096

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This is true. However, as you are providing a figure without any context, your statement is wholly inaccurate. For what you said to be true "It's demonstrably very much the first resort" then those ballots would have to have been issued as the initial response to the FIRST mention of any proposal pertinent to them.

Not even 0.0001% a chance that is the case. The hyperbole and utter fabrication contained on these threads (people using things they've simply dreamed up because they don't understand that fantasy doesn't bolster their argument to the real world, which can deal only in facts) is quite something to behold. Demonstrably very much the first resort? You'll have no problem demonstrating this then. Go on, demonstrate it.
You need to address that to the person who wrote the original point, as it wasn’t me.
 

SignallerJohn

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Nah. I'm happy to go into work. I don't like listening to the uneducated on the picket lines spouted by those who unknown to themselves will end up back at work a few weeks down the line. Poorer, bitter, and blaming all and sunder for their errors of judgement.
Won’t be poorer when the pay rise comes and it will

Don’t get bitter Gems, get better.
 
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Towers

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Won’t be poorer when the pay rise comes and it will

Don’t get bitter Gems, get better.
What sort of percentage would you be happy with to forget the safety arguments?

I think a deal for signallers is inevitable, as regardless of what happens with the passenger railway the government needs the network to run for freight movement. I rather fear that guards and other TOC staff might have a less rosy outlook.
 

ar10642

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I can't afford it either. But as sure as anything if my colleagues vote to strike ill do the decent thing and walk out. Why? Because when that ineveitable payrise is eventually won , I will have played my part and not been a freeloader. If everyone thought like you we would be on half the money we are on now.
So by all means leave the union, but you can thank the rest of us when a pay award is won. And don't forget there are still drivers who won't talk to drivers who came to work in 1982, folk have long memories.

This sounds like the classic "can't afford it" vs actually can't afford it as in bills won't get paid. Is it really worth falling behind on bills, maybe trashing your credit rating and not being able to get a mortgage or whatever, or even worse being taken to court to display "solidarity" for people at a job where you or they might not even have in a few years?
 

LittleAH

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My problem is waste. There’s plenty of money for a pay deal.

The TOC I work for has sent an absolute rainforest of crap through my letterbox in the last month. Tons of glossy brochures and printed books. All stuff I could read as a PDF on my iPhone. If we are all nationalised why has every operator got an internal comms/ PR/ Marketing dept? The duplication of roles on the railway is insane.
Do you really think that all of that equates enough money for say a 5% pay rise for 40000+ staff? Even if rail was nationalised again, you'd need regional communication/marketing/IT/commercial etc departments and regional directors too. And again, a rail worker is advocating someone else losing their job for their own gain - sickening.
My views on the RMT were formed back in 2016. Obviously I supported the strike on Northern about conductor roles, but it was this piece in the link below that stuck in my gullet.


Never in all my life have I read such guff. Everyone of those arguments could have, and now probably will be implemented by a Tory government. Even Jeremy Corbyn indirectly warned the RMT were wrong. This convinced me that the RMT is led by donkeys.
But this raises my second point. Why has the RMT never had a conversation with it's members what public ownership of the railways would mean. Tell me a single profession in public ownership that has managed to get a good pay deal out of their government masters? Why on earth did the RMT think it could get anything better? Yet on and on they go about public owned railways.

RMT members to me are like sheep following the ram, eventually the ram will f*** you over. And that process has now begun.
Agree with this wholeheartedly. Part of the reason we're in a cost of living crisis is Brexit and the RMT pushed for it. I'll certainly never forget they wanted it.

Also, I do wonder how many people who pushed for nationalisation ever worked in the public sector? I worked in it for 18 months - no pay rise, no perks. I left due to budgets being cut and my job becoming ever more difficult to do and joined the railway instead because I knew people who worked in it and said it was a good place to be. And now the same things are seemingly happening to rail. What's even more funny is that on this very forum I've seen an RMT rep complaining about those perks of the job being stripped back - welcome to the public sector son.
 

Gems

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What sort of percentage would you be happy with to forget the safety arguments?

I think a deal for signallers is inevitable, as regardless of what happens with the passenger railway the government needs the network to run for freight movement. I rather fear that guards and other TOC staff might have a less rosy outlook.
This comment is spot on. The government may well reach a settlement with NR, I think the lever pullers are probably in a good position regarding that.
But why on earth has the RMT dragged the TOC's into this argument at this stage? The only reason I can see is to give weight to the strike. We have 13 TOC's all on different T&Cs. How do you negotiate that? Where is the exit strategy? What is the aim? It will all end in tears and just fizzle out with everyone going back.
 

yorkie

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....All you armchair experts....
When someone uses a phrase like this, it makes me switch off. It doesn't lend credence to your post and comes across as sounding bitter
I’m retiring in two years. It can’t come fast enough.
To get straight to the point, if anyone is not enjoying their job I would strongly encourage them to find another. If you can't find a suitable alternative, then perhaps the T&Cs at your current employer are not actually that bad.
I can't afford it either. But as sure as anything if my colleagues vote to strike ill do the decent thing and walk out. Why? Because when that ineveitable payrise is eventually won , I will have played my part and not been a freeloader. If everyone thought like you we would be on half the money we are on now.
So by all means leave the union, but you can thank the rest of us when a pay award is won. And don't forget there are still drivers who won't talk to drivers who came to work in 1982, folk have long memories.
You sound very bitter; trying to suggest your colleagues are "freeloaders" and suggesting their actions are not "decent". It says a lot about you and only makes me feel even less inclined to support the unions.

It can't be healthy having such a negative view towards your employer and colleagues.
This thread is the perfect epitome of why big business continue to make record profits despite a "cost of living crisis" and why government get away with giving themselves pay rises during record inflation whilst telling all the countries workers no.... The problem is us, a payrise for any worker in any industry is a win now, it weakens the status quo. Be it train driver, signaller, nurse, teacher, fireman. We will all end up broke unless we stop sniping each other. The state doesn't want us having any money anymore, just continuously feeding the debt system to sustain the banking system we have.
This has to be some sort of parody/joke; it cannot possibly be serious post.
Generally I’m avoiding this thread because most of it is the predictable (and deeply boring) point scoring and vindictive drivel from the usual suspects…
This doesn't do your cause any good and comes across as being bitter; are you really that unhappy in your job that you need to come out with stuff like this? I hope not!

If you disagree with a post, quote it, and post a constructive reply and let us know why you disagree.

Whenever anyone says something like "most" or "many" posts are not to their liking, it often seems to actually relate to only a small proportion of posts in reality. Earlier in the thread there was a reference made to "plenty" of posts stating rail workers were "greedy" but in reality it was found there was only one.
Also completely agree it’s not great to see people calling for others in the industry to lose their jobs or generally turning on each other - I include in that a certain guard on this thread with a very clear grudge against drivers!
That's fair enough if you are also including those turning against those who don't support strike action.

...Look at the rate of inflation, your standard of living isn’t even going to stay as it is, if you do nothing.
The Union will have a hardship fund, speak to them...
Do you realise how inflation works? Do you think paying everyone more makes the problem go away?
 
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driverd

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I can't afford it either. But as sure as anything if my colleagues vote to strike ill do the decent thing and walk out. Why? Because when that ineveitable payrise is eventually won , I will have played my part and not been a freeloader. If everyone thought like you we would be on half the money we are on now.

Nonsense. Our LLC rep (no less) credits most of our pay rises to the TOC merry-go-round since privatisation. The Virgin:GNER rivalry being the key driver of wages and other TOCs needing to keep up to retain staff.

Thats not to say industrial action didn't have its part to play, but, privatisation had a major part to play and it's just disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

So by all means leave the union, but you can thank the rest of us when a pay award is won. And don't forget there are still drivers who won't talk to drivers who came to work in 1982, folk have long memories.

If a pay award is won. If. It doesn't look as if the DfT are in any hurry to award anyone anything (in England at least). Further, it's such a vague definition of a "win" that you can call anything a win. If 6 months of strikes leads to a 2% pay rise, for example, would that be a win? I think you'd have to atleast cover your losses during strike action to call it a win - and even then its a tough one to call because you never know what could have been won through further negotiation.

Anyone who discriminates or bullys colleagues for crossing a picket line could (and should) rightly face disciplinary action - not everyone can afford a strike - especially when the cost of living is rising as it is.

On a personal note, I feel let down by my union. Frankly, I receive a good salary. I, personally, don't feel enough effort has been made to reach a negotiated settlement (though I still question this attitude of entitlement to an annual pay rise) and I don't feel sufficiently disgruntled at my employer to cause such massive disruption to ordinary people's lives and inflict such reputational damage on my employer and the industry that I thoroughly enjoy working for.

Perhaps it's from working in other sectors where the T&Cs aren't a scratch on those of the railways. Perhaps its me remembering just how awful retail and leisure, zero hour contracts and literally no conditions beyond "you're paid for what you work" are. Whatever it is, I know I'm happy with my conditions. I know we're not making any money as a sector. Once we turn things around, then let's go after a pay rise because our efforts would rightly deserve it. But not now.

We should be all hands on deck, noses to the grindstone. Recover our sector, get the bills paid and then, claim what we have fairly earned.

Call me a tory (I'm not, really not), but this is just how I've been brought up and what I see as morally right. To walk out now is to turn my back on a business and an industry thats broadly done right by me for the last decade or so, without really giving things a chance to get better.
 

SignallerJohn

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What sort of percentage would you be happy with to forget the safety arguments?

I think a deal for signallers is inevitable, as regardless of what happens with the passenger railway the government needs the network to run for freight movement. I rather fear that guards and other TOC staff might have a less rosy outlook.
Beats me, Towers, I may say X percent but I know of colleagues on other routes who say they want inflation. I’m not the one negotiating it. But anything less than inflation is a pay cut whether people like that or not.

I want to make sure compulsory redundancys don’t happen for as long as I’m on the railway for.
 

Falcon1200

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At GWR Revenue Protection Inspectors actually have dual representation either RMT or TSSA, some areas are mostly one or the other.

I think things have changed over time. When I started in 1978 there was a difference in the "status" of salaried staff and wages grade staff. The former were almost exclusively TSSA members and the latter (apart from footplate staff) were members of the NUR.

I also joined BR (which, at the time was a closed shop, ie you had to belong to a Union) in 1978 as a Clerical Officer Grade 1. There was clear demarcation between which roles and grades each Union could represent, but with some overlap; Therefore, on Day 1, I was told I was entitled to join either the NUR or the TSSA, however the staff member only had application forms for the TSSA ! So I duly joined the TSSA, remained a member for all my career, and would recommend that all staff should join a Union, for the benefit of collective bargaining on pay and conditions, and for personal assistance if ever required.
 

jon0844

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Crazy argument. Most people do not have children of school age. Most people are not awaiting serious medical treatment. I hope you are not suggesting that education and the health service should only be paid for by those who use it. Similarly the country, or at least most city regions, would seize up if we didn't have a railway system: it's for everyone's benefit that we have one, hence it's right that it should be subsidised.

As the Tories morph into the Republican party, I can imagine plenty of people going down the 'Why should I pay for schools when I have no kids?' and 'Why should the state fund treatment for the unemployed who can't afford insurance?' route.

I sat on a Eurostar service to Paris once and got chatting to an American who was going to France on business and he was arguing about why Governments shouldn't be paying anything to people who hadn't made it in life. Seems we're all mugs (here, in France and Europe in general) for providing such things to the people.

Personally, given the importance to the economy (and environment) we should be funding (i.e. subsidising) public transport as a vital public service.
 

Towers

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I'm afraid I've seen nothing yet to disuade me from the view that this is simply the RMT loony leadership grabbing the opportunity to do a 'national' strike, something which no doubt the top brass will feel makes them heroes in their own lifetime. The language in some of their recent propaganda makes no attempt at hiding their glee and delight in arranging "the largest industrial action since the 1980s" or words to that effect. This is clearly all their Christmases coming at once. Their awareness of how dire the effects of their heroic crusade may be for the people they have persuaded to carry it out on their behalf,seems to have escaped them entirely, that or they just don't care. Aslef I presume have decided that they might as well take their own action at the same time, which is understandable.
 

jon0844

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Charming. It's comments like this that go some way to explaining the toxic attitude that exists in parts of the railway.

Maybe harsh, but it's someone's opinion and they're entitled to it - just as many people think a train driver is overpaid and doesn't have to do much.
 

DC1989

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This thread is the perfect epitome of why big business continue to make record profits despite a "cost of living crisis" and why government get away with giving themselves pay rises during record inflation whilst telling all the countries workers no.... The problem is us, a payrise for any worker in any industry is a win now, it weakens the status quo. Be it train driver, signaller, nurse, teacher, fireman. We will all end up broke unless we stop sniping each other. The state doesn't want us having any money anymore, just continuously feeding the debt system to sustain the banking system we have.

But the rail way has not been making record profits - quite the opposite. In the real world when a business is failing, people lose their jobs and pay freezes occur. Quite why the rail industry should be insulated from that I don't know.
 

Bantamzen

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This comment is spot on. The government may well reach a settlement with NR, I think the lever pullers are probably in a good position regarding that.
But why on earth has the RMT dragged the TOC's into this argument at this stage? The only reason I can see is to give weight to the strike. We have 13 TOC's all on different T&Cs. How do you negotiate that? Where is the exit strategy? What is the aim? It will all end in tears and just fizzle out with everyone going back.
I suspect the answer around the RMT's top table is that they've lulled themselves into a false sense of security. I honestly believe that the RMT leaders believe this is an easy win against a weak government. Whilst it is true the government is weaker than it was, it still has a 80 seat majority in the house & is two years away from a general election & didn't come off anything like as badly as it should in local elections last month. Or in other words the government still has the political capability to sit out a long running rail strike, and potentially even make political gains from it.

I've said it before and I will stand by it, but you have to pick your fights. The rail sector is much more dependant on public funds than it has been for a long time, and this means that private sector pay rises are going to be a lot, lot harder to come by, especially as much of the rest of the public sector are very unlikely to get anything close to what the rail unions are demanding.

As the Tories morph into the Republican party, I can imagine plenty of people going down the 'Why should I pay for schools when I have no kids?' and 'Why should the state fund treatment for the unemployed who can't afford insurance?' route.

I sat on a Eurostar service to Paris once and got chatting to an American who was going to France on business and he was arguing about why Governments shouldn't be paying anything to people who hadn't made it in life. Seems we're all mugs (here, in France and Europe in general) for providing such things to the people.

Personally, given the importance to the economy (and environment) we should be funding (i.e. subsidising) public transport as a vital public service.
Public transport absolutely should be seen as a vital public service. However we currently have a government that is ideologically opposed to the idea of "big government", and that includes having a publicly run transport system. They have only stepped in because they did not perceive it was the right time to let the railway network collapse. But workers should not labour under the delusion that this government isn't eying up cutbacks in future, be they big axe swings like the eastern leg of HS2, or a death by a thousand cuts as being seen on parts of the network with service cutbacks.
 

yorkie

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I wish I could have been furloughed....
You are entitled to your views but those who were forced into isolation and had their pay cut against their will are equally entitled to a different view. You really don't know how lucky you are at times.
...Anyone who discriminates or bullys colleagues for crossing a picket line could (and should) rightly face disciplinary action - not everyone can afford a strike - especially when the cost of living is rising as it is...
Absolutely; if that occurs then it needs to be the strongest possible action.
...Perhaps it's from working in other sectors where the T&Cs aren't a scratch on those of the railways...
This is an excellent point; some people don't realise just how good their T&Cs actually are.

And at the end of the day if you really don't like the T&Cs, it's time to look elsewhere.
 
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