Rail strikes discussion

[Watershed]

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "strike timetable?"

Is it a guaranteed minimal service or is this still likely to have ad hoc cancellations at short notice "on the day"?

It's simply what each operator thinks it can feasibly run. Usually it errs on the conservative side, to ensure that few (if any) of the services in said timetable are cancelled.

At the moment there is no guaranteed minimum service level during strikes. The government has said it intends to change this, but then again they also had this in their 2019 manifesto, and yet here we are in 2022 and there are still no concrete proposals!

If there are any cancellations (barring the usual train/infrastructure failures) I would expect them to be largely down to unavailability of signalling and/or maintenance staff.

 

[LAX54]

Ah, I was referring only to the traincrew side of things - I wouldn't pretend to have any understanding of the NR situation, which you clearly do have!

Without wishing to go too far off topic, what arrangements are there for a solo signaller to take a break if their day has been marred by disruption? Presumably a last resort would be to close the box if the bobby demanded a break?

Single manned boxes, you take a break 'as and when the service allows' so you may do a full 8 hours or even 12 hours non stop, or as non stop as you can get, you may have to stop a train or 2 to have a poo ! and even then the delay will go down as "OC Signaller" with Urgent PNB in remarks
ROC's / PSB's may have a meal relief staff member within the roster, however when you get disruption, he/she will be used to assist, then there are days where not only are you a panel signaller down with illness, but you may have no M/R either due to illness, there is then no one to carry out breaks, the Shift Manager if not busy will cut you out so you can go to the loo, sandwich or pot noodle at the panel will be the order of the day.

 

[urbophile]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Crazy argument. Most people do not have children of school age. Most people are not awaiting serious medical treatment. I hope you are not suggesting that education and the health service should only be paid for by those who use it. Similarly the country, or at least most city regions, would seize up if we didn't have a railway system: it's for everyone's benefit that we have one, hence it's right that it should be subsidised.

 

[320320]

I. Have just applied for a railway job, locally, and I know with the strikes, its not easiest time to join the railways, but id be happy, just to get the job, and the pay and conditions, look fine to me. Im not interested in the politics, and would not support the strike, only thing the RMT would be of use to me, is in dispute etc, and if the choice was, if join union id have to strike, then I wouldnt join union.on principle, and id be just happy to get to work on the railways. All my jobs so far have had no union, so I dont need one now.

Hopefully your application is unsuccessful. The people who have fought hard to have pay and conditions that “look fine” to you don’t need the likes of you undermining their efforts to secure better terms and conditions during the worst cost of living crisis many of us have ever seen.

 

[Siggy1980s]

If the rmt member s want a better pay job why do they look of a job somewhere else with better pay with the qualification they have.

Oh yes. I'll apply for a Signaller job with British Airways. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Watershed]

Hopefully your application is unsuccessful. The people who have fought hard to have pay and conditions that “look fine” to you don’t need the likes of you undermining their efforts to secure better terms and conditions during the worst cost of living crisis many of us have ever seen.

Charming. It's comments like this that go some way to explaining the toxic attitude that exists in parts of the railway.

 

[320320]

Charming. It's comments like this that go some way to explaining the toxic attitude that exists in parts of the railway.

But it’s fine to label railway staff as greedy and out of touch. We all know what the deal is here.

 

[Need2]

Charming. It's comments like this that go some way to explaining the toxic attitude that exists in parts of the railway.

What about the selfish attitude of the OP, it’s not just the railway that has these self centred people.

 

[Watershed]

But it’s fine to label railway staff as greedy and out of touch. We all know what the deal is here.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The person you were responding to made either of those allegations, either.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Single manned boxes, you take a break 'as and when the service allows' so you may do a full 8 hours or even 12 hours non stop, or as non stop as you can get, you may have to stop a train or 2 to have a poo ! and even then the delay will go down as "OC Signaller" with Urgent PNB in remarks
ROC's / PSB's may have a meal relief staff member within the roster, however when you get disruption, he/she will be used to assist, then there are days where not only are you a panel signaller down with illness, but you may have no M/R either due to illness, there is then no one to carry out breaks, the Shift Manager if not busy will cut you out so you can go to the loo, sandwich or pot noodle at the panel will be the order of the day.

So what exactly are you saying? That it will affect ROCs too? Well I suggest you go on strike then.

 

[Watershed]

What about the selfish attitude of the OP, it’s not just the railway that has these self centred people.

What is self centred about not wanting to be forced to strike? It can't be claimed that the railway "isn't a closed shop" if those who don't wish to join a union are told they're self centred.

 

[320320]

What is self centred about not wanting to be forced to strike? It can't be claimed that the railway "isn't a closed shop" if those who don't wish to join a union are told they're self centred.

Nobody is forced to strike. The OP suggested they would join the union for the protection it offered but would be unwilling to strike, it’s a selfish attitude. Don’t join the union if you don’t want to support your colleagues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is self centred about not wanting to be forced to strike? It can't be claimed that the railway "isn't a closed shop" if those who don't wish to join a union are told they're self centred.

UK law doesn't allow closed shops, but the railway is as close to one as it gets.

To be honest I think it is an awkward one. If there is collective bargaining (as there is on the railway), it probably does make sense to have a closed shop (were it allowed), otherwise you have no collective bargaining and people can represent themselves or be represented as they choose. The middle ground is a bit awkward, as you have non-members of the Union benefitting from what the Union negotiates.

 

[Gems]

UK law doesn't allow closed shops, but the railway is as close to one as it gets.

To be honest I think it is an awkward one. If there is collective bargaining (as there is on the railway), it probably does make sense to have a closed shop (were it allowed), otherwise you have no collective bargaining and people can represent themselves or be represented as they choose. The middle ground is a bit awkward, as you have non-members of the Union benefitting from what the Union negotiates.

Collective bargaining when it suits. Many Northern drivers when they were offered the harmonisation package were happy to have the collective bargaining aspect chucked in the bin for three years.
The problem with the rail unions is one is more than happy to shaft the others members.

 

[baz962]

Oh yes. I'll apply for a Signaller job with British Airways. Thanks for the advice.

Would they take train drivers too. 125 in the sky , I'm in

 

[Egg Centric]

I don't really see how you couldn't have collective bargaining on something like the railways. In many jobs such as mine, star performers are literally orders of magnitude more productive than lower performers so individual pay bargaining makes sense. For many railway roles the "world's best" isn't going to be 10 times better than the minimum acceptable standard, at least in economic terms. Therefore all should be on more or less the same wage and the best way to drive the average up is almost certainly that collective bargaining.

Unfortunately, that relies on the collective bargainers being good at what they do. Bob Crow was. I don't think he'd have been calling this strike. Too savvy.

 

[CFRAIL]

Nobody is forced to strike. The OP suggested they would join the union for the protection it offered but would be unwilling to strike, it’s a selfish attitude. Don’t join the union if you don’t want to support your colleagues.

What about those that didn't vote for strike action?

 

[320320]

What about those that didn't vote for strike action?

If people don’t want to honour the outcome of a union ballot because they don’t agree with it then they have the option of resigning their membership and doing whatever suits themselves.

 

[185143]

Nobody should be abused for being at work or expressing opinions, but this strike is more than just expressing opinions, and will lead to a lot of misery for the passengers, so while it’s wrong abuse railways workers, I wont have sympathy for them, as they have bought it on themselves, im 100 per cent against the strikes.

Even the ones who voted against the action, didn't vote at all, aren't part of the RMT or contractors who were not balloted?

 

[Gems]

If people don’t want to honour the outcome of a union ballot because they don’t agree with it then they have the option of resigning their membership and doing whatever suits themselves.

But who's going to pay for Mick Lynch's £160k a year package.

 

[Towers]

But who's going to pay for Mick Lynch's £160k a year package.

Don't forget it'll be significantly less this year with him losing a day's pay every strike date. Oh wait...

 

[Adam Williams]

But who's going to pay for Mick Lynch's £160k a year package.

Do you have a source for this, and is there any reason to believe it's substantially different from any other unions' (of a similar scale) general secretary compensation packages?

Note that including tax paid to HMRC by the employer in "compensation package" figures is pretty disingenuous if you don't explicitly state that you're doing it.

 

[Efini92]

Would they take train drivers too. 125 in the sky , I'm in

I think you’d need to go a bit faster to get into the sky

Collective bargaining when it suits. Many Northern drivers when they were offered the harmonisation package were happy to have the collective bargaining aspect chucked in the bin for three years.
The problem with the rail unions is one is more than happy to shaft the others members.

How is that so?

 

[Gems]

Do you have a source for this, and is there any reason to believe it's substantially different from any other unions' (of a similar scale) general secretary compensation packages?

Note that including tax paid to HMRC in "compensation package" figures is pretty disingenuous if you don't explicitly state that you're doing it.

A compensation package now, not a salary? Okay, £124,000 last year. Bet it's not less this.

 

[Need2]

What about those that didn't vote for strike action?

Then don’t join the union then, simple really!
You freely joined a union, if you do not agree with what is democratically voted on then you are free to leave. Their is no gun to your head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

UK law doesn't allow closed shops, but the railway is as close to one as it gets.

I’ve worked in a closed shop and the railway (at least what I’ve seen) is absolutely nowhere near or nowhere like it.

 

[Adam Williams]

A compensation package now, not a salary? Okay, £124,000 last year. Bet it's not less this.

So, within ~10% of ASLEF's equivalent position's salary two years ago, a good 60k below the BMA's equivalent position's salary two years ago, within 10% of the National Education Union's equivalent position's salary two years ago and within 10% of NASWUT's equivalent position's salary two years ago.

Why is this interesting or remarkable?

 

[Gems]

Then don’t join the union then, simple really!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==


I’ve worked in a closed shop and the railway (at least what I’ve seen) is absolutely nowhere near or nowhere like it.

No it's not a closed shop, quite true. I have been approached this week by a few of the newer staff worried about going to work next Tuesday in case nobody talks to them, I just tell them turn up if you wish. And to be fair, everyone has told them the same.

 

[Efini92]

No it's not a closed shop, quite true. I have been approached this week by a few of the newer staff worried about going to work next Tuesday in case nobody talks to them, I just tell them turn up if you wish. And to be fair, everyone has told them the same.

You’ve still not answered by question how northern drivers were going to give up collective bargaining for 3 years.

 

[Gems]

So, within ~10% of ASLEF's equivalent position's salary two years ago, a good 60k below the BMA's equivalent position's salary two years ago, within 10% of the National Education Union's equivalent position's salary two years ago and within 10% of NASWUT's equivalent position's salary two years ago.

Why is this interesting or remarkable?

And 400% higher than the average rail worker who is set to lose the equivalent of 1% pay rise per strike day over a year. All so he can have a political scrap with his arch enemy Johnson.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

You’ve still not answered by question how northern drivers were going to give up collective bargaining for 3 years.

Northern drivers were offered a harmonisation deal a few years ago. Part of the deal was they got a 4% rise for three years. But part of the package was ending collective bargaining for four years.

 

[Efini92]

And 400% higher than the average rail worker who is set to lose the equivalent of 1% pay rise per strike day over a year. All so he can have a political scrap with his arch enemy Johnson.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==


Northern drivers were offered a harmonisation deal a few years ago. Part of the deal was they got a 4% rise for three years. But part of the package was ending collective bargaining for four years.

Do you mean joint negotiations?