Rail strikes discussion

[320320]

You want to bet on that?

They might close under utilised booking offices but there’s no chance they’ll unilaterally change the terms and conditions of employees without agreement.
I’m sure there’ll be daily mail readers absolutely frothing at the mouth with visions of fire and rehire and smashing the unions but I don’t see it.
I’m sure a sensible offer with an agreement to look at modernisation of working practices and going to a full 7 day service will be the way forward rather than obliterating the entire network for years to come.

 

[Horizon22]

I suspect as with a lot of professions a lot of the long serving drivers from BR days wouldn't even get in now.

I'm surprised it's not Graduate Entry these days.

This might have been tongue-in-cheek but I’m not. The skill set probably doesn’t suit graduates who on the whole will look to project & more stimulating roles intellectually (and this isn’t saying you don’t need brains to be driver) on a rotating basis. Being a driver requires long periods of concentration and lone-working plus anti-social shifts.

 

[ar10642]

Building a better railway

Appeal to rail unions and workers to not risk the future of the rail industry by striking, but rather work with government to reform our railway.

www.gov.uk

for those who haven't read it. Speech made just now...

From the speech: "Even before the pandemic, everyone could see the railway’s finances were untenable. COVID has only made the case for reform more urgent. A matter of survival."

They're not going to back down.

 

[Wolfie]

Thanks for the link. I think its pretty clear that the government is squaring up for a fight, deliberately mentioning the 700s as well as driver wages is positioning ministers between the passengers and rail workers. Expect more rhetoric about driverless trains and high driver wages to help sour the public's opinions further. I know its way more complicated than that, but most of the public don't, and the Tories are clearly lining up to use that to their advantage.

It's going to get messy.

Those who ever believed that HMG was not up for a fight on this were frankly deluded. Rather too many posts of 'look at the majority, they will have to back down' earlier in this thread. The only majority that the Tories care about is in the House of Commons where they can legislate.

 

[Starmill]

I don't disagree with this, but rail workers are generally a long way back in the queue to have the biggest issue there. Guards, say, aren't well paid compared with drivers, but they're hardly on minimum.

The easy solution to this is for the government to implement a pay rise floor for public sector workers. Say around £1,100 - 1,300 annual rise for all workers. Some workers could be entitled to more to top them up to 2 - 5% deals.

They're not going to though. Sunak won't be agreeing a decent floor. It would hardly be expensive either. Low tens of billions extra borrowing this year, for an economy-wide boost.

 

[Wolfie]

They might close under utilised booking offices but there’s no chance they’ll unilaterally change the terms and conditions of employees without agreement.
I’m sure there’ll be daily mail readers absolutely frothing at the mouth with visions of fire and rehire and smashing the unions but I don’t see it.
I’m sure a sensible offer with an agreement to look at modernisation of working practices and going to a full 7 day service will be the way forward rather than obliterating the entire network for years to come.

I am afraid that if you genuinely believe that first para you may well be in for a bloody unpleasant shock.

 

[windingroad]

The four words in bold are key. I will throw a question back at you: who decides what is fair? I doubt that anyone outside of its membership would say that RMT should make the call.

Well no, but then (as a fairly dispassionate observer) do I really want this government to be calling the shots, unchecked? The answer is no. The RMT doesn't set wages or conditions and nobody is saying it should; it just advocates for a fairer compromise, which is ultimately the way most of these disputes end.

 

[320320]

I am afraid that if you genuinely believe that first para you may well be in for a bloody unpleasant shock.

They would be bogged down for years with legal challenges and in the end they’d probably end up falling foul of the ECHR, again. Now that would really get the daily mail readers bashing their keyboards.

 

[Bantamzen]

Those who ever believed that HMG was not up for a fight on this were frankly deluded. Rather too many posts of 'look at the majority, they will have to back down' earlier in this thread. The only majority that the Tories care about is in the House of Commons where they can legislate.

Indeed, the RMT leadership have got the mood of the government all wrong. It seems to me that they thought going after them full tilt would see them wilting in no time, but this is a government that has somehow survived all sorts of scandals and custer-you-know-whats. They are not afraid of going toe to toe with the RMT and other unions.

Maybe, just maybe if we were closer to a general election, and Labour were coming up on the inside of the polls it would be different. A government struggling to stay in power would be far more vulnerable to a long period of industrial action, and might be tempted just to meet the unions more than half way. But the Tories still feel very comfortable and are not under pressure from the opposition. And that makes their little, erm, egos swell, meaning that they will be very confident of another round of union bashing.

 

[Wolfie]

They would be bogged down for years with legal challenges and in the end they’d probably end up falling foul of the ECHR, again. Now that would really get the daily mail readers bashing their keyboards.

They would go down the fire and hire road which has been the subject of unsuccessful legal challenge previously.

I have been a civil servant for well over 30 years (l am signed off work currently for post-operative recuperation) albeit that l have never worked for DfT. The last 15 years of that have been spent doing policy work including regular Ministerial engagement.

It gives me no pleasure to tell you that any submissions on this whole issue being put to Ministers in DfT, HMT or Cabinet Office which didn't posit doing exactly that would almost certainly be thrown out at Senior Civil Service sign-off level with an instruction to 'try again'.

With respect to the ECHR l see that pulling out has been mooted again. This lot don't like any checks and balances placed on them....

 

[windingroad]

Indeed, the RMT leadership have got the mood of the government all wrong. It seems to me that they thought going after them full tilt would see them wilting in no time, but this is a government that has somehow survived all sorts of scandals and custer-you-know-whats. They are not afraid of going toe to toe with the RMT and other unions.

Maybe, just maybe if we were closer to a general election, and Labour were coming up on the inside of the polls it would be different. A government struggling to stay in power would be far more vulnerable to a long period of industrial action, and might be tempted just to meet the unions more than half way. But the Tories still feel very comfortable and are not under pressure from the opposition. And that makes their little, erm, egos swell, meaning that they will be very confident of another round of union bashing.

I think these things are fickle. Take ScotRail for example: in that dispute, the Scottish Government (rather than the unions) caught the majority of the pressure and criticism. So I think the way strikes/disputes are seen differs massively depending on how they are framed, and by whom.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think these things are fickle. Take ScotRail for example: in that dispute, the Scottish Government (rather than the unions) caught the majority of the pressure and criticism. So I think the way strikes/disputes are seen differs massively depending on how they are framed, and by whom.

True, however this move by the boy wonder Shapps puts his government firmly on the front foot. All a lot of people will hear is "driverless trains" and drivers getting paid well for "pushing levers". They may even hear "new lockdown" as the Daily Wail has already started to tout. Unless the unions can come with a seriously good charm offensive, and that won't come with striking over pay rises most people won't ever see, then the battle for hearts and minds is all but lost for them.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I think these things are fickle. Take ScotRail for example: in that dispute, the Scottish Government (rather than the unions) caught the majority of the pressure and criticism. So I think the way strikes/disputes are seen differs massively depending on how they are framed, and by whom.

A big part of the framing is the media , in Scotland let's be honest the mainstream media hate the SNP , and framed it in the usual bad SNP way.

In England you have a pretty right wing press who might not be the biggest fan of the Tories but they hate the unions more

 

[LAX54]

Shut the whole network down, sack everyone and reemploy them or others on terms and conditions that are affordable ?

That worked very well with the Airlines during the Pandemic didn't it ? just think of the cost if you got rid of every member of staff, and the Courts would be kept busy with thousands of unfair dismissal claims.... all valid.
It is odd that when I worked for NR, and we had staff off the street get a position, they would go to signalling school, finish that, then start learning in the box, the amount that dropped out / resigned before completing the training was high, citing they did not realise what the shifts were, or they HAD to work Sundays, could not 'just take a day off' or how stressful it was on a daily basis, or how much knowledge they had to know to do the job on an daily basis.

 

[mike57]

True, however this move by the boy wonder Shapps puts his government firmly on the front foot. All a lot of people will hear is "driverless trains" and drivers getting paid well for "pushing levers". They may even hear "new lockdown" as the Daily Wail has already started to tout. Unless the unions can come with a seriously good charm offensive, and that won't come with striking over pay rises most people won't ever see, then the battle for hearts and minds is all but lost for them.

As I have said further up the thread, I think the Government are relishing this fight, after all it takes attention away from less savory matters, and allows them to play the 'who runs the country' card to the detriment of the RMT. I know there was a solid vote in favour of industrial action, but looking at the overall picture I just dont see how that action is going to be successful for those taking it, and in fact may well bolster the fortunes of those that politically are on the other side of the fence.

 

[windingroad]

True, however this move by the boy wonder Shapps puts his government firmly on the front foot. All a lot of people will hear is "driverless trains" and drivers getting paid well for "pushing levers". They may even hear "new lockdown" as the Daily Wail has already started to tout. Unless the unions can come with a seriously good charm offensive, and that won't come with striking over pay rises most people won't ever see, then the battle for hearts and minds is all but lost for them.

I'm not saying any of this is wrong, but is there any evidence (ie. polling) that the strike is as unpopular as you say? The anecdotal reactions I've seen have broadly been down party lines, and the more Grant Shapps politicises it, the more that will happen. So I think there's a scenario where it becomes very obvious that this is political theatre by a Conservative government, and opinions are decided on that basis.

 

[Wolfie]

That worked very well with the Airlines during the Pandemic didn't it ? just think of the cost if you got rid of every member of staff, and the Courts would be kept busy with thousands of unfair dismissal claims.... all valid.
It is odd that when I worked for NR, and we had staff off the street get a position, they would go to signalling school, finish that, then start learning in the box, the amount that dropped out / resigned before completing the training was high, citing they did not realise what the shifts were, or they HAD to work Sundays, could not 'just take a day off' or how stressful it was on a daily basis, or how much knowledge they had to know to do the job on an daily basis.

Unfair dismissal claims? Look at what Centrica did in British Gas then think about why the Tories did not support a Labour bid last year to make fire and hire illegal in UK as it is in many other European countries.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

As I have said further up the thread, I think the Government are relishing this fight, after all it takes attention away from less savory matters, and allows them to play the 'who runs the country' card to the detriment of the RMT. I know there was a solid vote in favour of industrial action, but looking at the overall picture I just dont see how that action is going to be successful for those taking it, and in fact may well bolster the fortunes of those that politically are on the other side of the fence.

I am afraid that l agree. Johnson's equivalent of the Falklands War.

 

[windingroad]

I am afraid that l agree. Johnson's equivalent of the Falklands War.

I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but this feels like jumping the shark to me.

 

[2021_Signaller]

The government really want a nasty protracted period of strike action. They're going to get it! Shameful way to treat workers concerns about their cuts for the industry.

Exclusive: watch Network Rail bosses discuss ‘bribing’ workers to cross picket line during strike

Leaked video reveals government body’s plan to incentivise rail workers in attempt to break ‘once in a generation’ strike Rail strikes on a scale not seen in decades are planned f…

skwawkbox.org

A leaked video has revealed bosses at Network Rail (NR) confirming they plan to bribe workers to break strike action – and acknowledging that the planned strikes are on a scale ‘that hasn’t happened for a generation’ as workers fight back against a 10% real-terms pay cut.

The press release quotes TSSA General Secretary Manuel Cortes:

The cat is really out of the bag. The Tories have the cheek to claim that our members can’t have the pay rise they so richly deserve because our railways can’t afford it.
Yet at the same time they have instructed management at Network Rail to throw endless pots of money at attempts to break strikes. So, it seems there’s cash aplenty when it comes to stopping perfectly legal industrial action but nothing for our workers who face a cost-of-living crisis and were hailed as heroes in the pandemic.
It’s clear that Johnson and his Tory cronies are now picking a fight rather than trying to find solutions. Trying to pit worker against worker is an affront to British democracy and offers nothing at a time when thousands of jobs are on the line.
Our members will see their petty bribes for what they are – a shameful, underhand attempt to divide and rule. The British people will no doubt feel the same because the whole country is tired of this government and their deeply unpopular antics.

Keir Starmer, meanwhile, has yet again failed to back the workers, saying during today’s Prime Minister’s Questions that he does not want the strike to proceed.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not saying any of this is wrong, but is there any evidence (ie. polling) that the strike is as unpopular as you say? The anecdotal reactions I've seen have broadly been down party lines, and the more Grant Shapps politicises it, the more that will happen. So I think there's a scenario where it becomes very obvious that this is political theatre by a Conservative government, and opinions are decided on that basis.

You have to remember that we are just coming off the back of two years of varying degrees of covid restrictions, many businesses are banking on a bumper summer, inflation is on the charge and most people funded by public sector funds won't see anything like that is being asked for by rail unions. It isn't going to be a popular dispute because it is going to impact people trying to get back to normal, and people struggling to get by.

You can see the angle Shapps and Co are coming from, "look these greedy rail staff on £50K want 10% whilst you get sod all". The public will lap that stuff up.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but this feels like jumping the shark to me.

I hope that you are right. Things are already bad enough in this country.

 

[billio]

From a personal point of view I am fearful that this strike may seriously damage the railway with routes closing and services being cut-back. Looking forward buses and trains will be an important part of my mobility as I grow older.
I fully accept that railway staff deserve a fair increase in their pay and where necessary improved conditions but please be careful how you achieve it.

 

[Horizon22]

Building a better railway

Appeal to rail unions and workers to not risk the future of the rail industry by striking, but rather work with government to reform our railway.

www.gov.uk

for those who haven't read it. Speech made just now...

There are some fair comments but also a considerable amount of nonsense; see this bit of cherry-picking - "In fact, the railways cost over £20 billion a year to run and, in the year to April 2021, they raised just £4 billion from fares and other revenue"

Well yes between April 2020 and April 2021 the country was mostly in lockdown, which is hardly representative of a normal year...

 

[mike57]

I am afraid that l agree. Johnson's equivalent of the Falklands War.

Mr Johnson may sometimes appear to be a buffoon but no one should underestimate him, least of all a trade union 'taking him on'. He is shrewd, and the fact that he has manged to negotiate the most challenging period that any incoming PM has faced since WW2 should be warning to those who think thay may win this fight. A lot of similarities with Mrs T in 1984, and we all know where that left the NUM

 

[Horizon22]

This is really very unlikely. If a wholesale restructure were proposed the trade unions would likely recommend their members accept the revisions to contracts.

For example RMT Conductor members at Southern accepted new contracts as onboard supervisors.

After a bitter, 2 year dispute with many feeling they had no alternative. Not that some of the reforms weren't reasonable, but it was hardly plain-sailing.

 

[windingroad]

You have to remember that we are just coming off the back of two years of varying degrees of covid restrictions, many businesses are banking on a bumper summer, inflation is on the charge and most people funded by public sector funds won't see anything like that is being asked for by rail unions. It isn't going to be a popular dispute because it is going to impact people trying to get back to normal, and people struggling to get by.

You can see the angle Shapps and Co are coming from, "look these greedy rail staff on £50K want 10% whilst you get sod all". The public will lap that stuff up.

You could well be right, but I suppose I'd like to believe (possibly in vain) that people aren't that easily led! I don't really understand why it's so difficult for someone to think "this is inconvenient" and "but I support the striking workers nevertheless" at the same time. Currently I get paid a lot less than many on the railway and I don't begrudge them a penny of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

From a personal point of view I am fearful that this strike may seriously damage the railway with routes closing and services being cut-back. Looking forward buses and trains will be an important part of my mobility as I grow older.

I don't think we'll see route closures. Even Shapps himself made it clear he was against that in the debate yesterday. The government are looking for opportunities to score cheap points and closing routes is deeply unpopular. Reduced services? Probably.

 

[Bantamzen]

You could well be right, but I suppose I'd like to believe (possibly in vain) that people aren't that easily led! I don't really understand why it's so difficult for someone to think "this is inconvenient" and "but I support the striking workers nevertheless" at the same time. Currently I get paid a lot less than many on the railway and I don't begrudge them a penny of it.

The world has changed a lot over the years. Where once workers striking for better pay and conditions would get widespread support, now if the strikes affect the public in any way that support will no longer be forthcoming.

 

[Horizon22]

Indeed, the RMT leadership have got the mood of the government all wrong. It seems to me that they thought going after them full tilt would see them wilting in no time, but this is a government that has somehow survived all sorts of scandals and custer-you-know-whats. They are not afraid of going toe to toe with the RMT and other unions.

Maybe, just maybe if we were closer to a general election, and Labour were coming up on the inside of the polls it would be different. A government struggling to stay in power would be far more vulnerable to a long period of industrial action, and might be tempted just to meet the unions more than half way. But the Tories still feel very comfortable and are not under pressure from the opposition. And that makes their little, erm, egos swell, meaning that they will be very confident of another round of union bashing.

Labour have been ahead in the polls for months now. There's a couple of key by-elections coming up where the Tories face strong challenges vs Labour (Wakefield) & Lib Dems (Tiverton & Honiton). Losing both of those and the current cost of living crisis plus everything else that is going on might lead to a genuine shift in policies / more leadership challenges. By-elections have led to similar impacts in the past.

 

[thelongestroad]

Apparently the RMT didn't turn up at local talks scheduled today at GWR.

*But apparently they weren't supposed to.

 

[43096]

While I'm not saying the current situation is necessarily sustainable (although I don't think that's a given) it really drives me insane to see people repeatedly invoke "subsidy" as some kind of dirty word. The railway is a public service, not a business. Most public services do not, and should not, make a profit. The value is in the service they provide!

That last point is very true.

But more than doubling subsidy in the five years pre-pandemic for 6% more income from passengers looks exceptionally poor value. It’s not like the service has significantly improved for that cost, either (in many cases it has got worse).