Rail strikes discussion

[Starmill]

After a bitter, 2 year dispute with many feeling they had no alternative. Not that some of the reforms weren't reasonable, but it was hardly plain-sailing.

Indeed it's about as bad now as it was then. Not good for anyone and will take time to recover relationships.

 

[wobman]

But isn't this dispute about network rail / Rmt LU drivers members and only the only Aslef members balloted / striking being GA & Hull Trains ??? Which is a minority of the actual driving grade.

All I see is the devil drivers this then greedy drivers that, which shows how so many people are brainwashed by the right wing press & government.
I'm not on strike & I'm going into work next week, if there's no trains running it's not my fault.

The negativity towards the drivers grade is shocking to see on here, it's a real shame people can't see what's happening with the Elite govt attacking the workers again & again.

 

[Iskra]

There are some fair comments but also a considerable amount of nonsense; see this bit of cherry-picking - "In fact, the railways cost over £20 billion a year to run and, in the year to April 2021, they raised just £4 billion from fares and other revenue"

Well yes between April 2020 and April 2021 the country was mostly in lockdown, which is hardly representative of a normal year...

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind. If the railway had done everything possible to facilitate revenue, your point would be valid, but the truth is the railway lagged woefully behind the rest of society in returning to normality, while devouring vast sums of taxpayers money at the same time.

 

[Wolfie]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind.

Much of that is your highly subjective judgement masquerading as fact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind.

And I think it's important to bear in mind that not all of us "idolise" "key workers". While I suppose I had the best of all worlds by working from home as I usually do and did, I would have been happy to continue going to work were I in a job where WFH wasn't possible, and I'd have far preferred to work than be furloughed. Indeed in order not to be stuck in the house I did do some volunteer work, shifting food boxes about for a local "COVID relief" food box project at a local church.

If I had been furloughed long term I would probably have looked for near-full time voluntary work. Not all of us think staying at home watching the telly is an enjoyable day.

 

[Iskra]

Much of that is your highly subjective judgement masquerading as fact.

It’s fact established from empirical observation.

Which bit isn’t true?

 

[windingroad]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind. If the railway had done everything possible to facilitate revenue, your point would be valid, but the truth is the railway lagged woefully behind the rest of society in returning to normality, while devouring vast sums of taxpayers money at the same time.

When you say "the railway" chose to perpetuate the lockdown, who do you mean? The drivers? The guards? The cleaners? Why should the "chickens com[e] home to roost" for those people?

 

[Wolfie]

It’s fact established from empirical observation.

Which bit isn’t true?

The guff about social distancing for a start.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==

When you say "the railway" chose to perpetuate the lockdown, who do you mean? The drivers? The guards? The cleaners? Why should the "chickens com[e] home to roost" for those people?

True enough.

 

[Bald Rick]

A leaked video has revealed bosses at Network Rail (NR) confirming they plan to bribe workers to break strike action – and acknowledging that the planned strikes are on a scale ‘that hasn’t happened for a generation’ as workers fight back against a 10% real-terms pay cut.

Bribe? Or additional pay for working outside their normal hours and responsibilities? Having gained the appropriate competencies of course.

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

 

[Bletchleyite]

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

Actually plenty of salaried professionals do exactly that from time to time.

 

[lineclear]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind. If the railway had done everything possible to facilitate revenue, your point would be valid, but the truth is the railway lagged woefully behind the rest of society in returning to normality, while devouring vast sums of taxpayers money at the same time.

All but the last of your list had nothing to do with those who have voted to strike.

 

[Iskra]

The guff about social distancing for a start.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2022 ==


True enough.

Can you be more specific about how that is incorrect?

 

[dakta]

As we speak

Actually plenty of salaried professionals do exactly that from time to time.

 

[Iskra]

All but the last of your list had nothing to do with those who have voted to strike.

I was replying to someone who was blaming lockdown for reduced fare income, I’m just pointing out that there was self inflicted reduction of fare income beyond the lockdown/social distancing time frame. I’m not bothered who caused it.

 

[lineclear]

Bribe? Or additional pay for working outside their normal hours and responsibilities? Having gained the appropriate competencies of course.

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

For Role Clarity staff? Isn't that the norm?

 

[baz962]

Bribe? Or additional pay for working outside their normal hours and responsibilities? Having gained the appropriate competencies of course.

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

But funnily enough , I don't know any rail staff getting double time and a day in lieu. Don't even get double time , so just another example of finding money as it suits.

 

[nanstallon]

It is not even a fight to reduce costs on the railway, they haven't proposed compulsory redundancy yet.

It is about public sector pay. The unions fought for years to be on the public payroll and now they are, they don't like it. If train guards get 5% and choose not to work Sundays, while nurses are paid less and get a lower raise, just about everyone except the RMT will be outraged.

True - the government cannot afford to lose, because the rest of the public sector will then say, "good enough for RMT, good enough for us". I really hope that this isn't going to be a replay of the miners' strike in 1984/5. My sympathies were with the miners, but when the hotheads started throwing bricks through car windows I knew they were going to lose. If people start using language like 'scab', then I'm pretty sure this will go the same way. Outdated class hatred won't get anyone anywhere.

 

[320320]

Bribe? Or additional pay for working outside their normal hours and responsibilities? Having gained the appropriate competencies of course.

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

I’d imagine that people with any sort of moral compass would refrain from feathering their own nest at their colleagues expense.

They deserve every bit of flack they’ll undoubtedly get from their colleagues when this strike is resolved.

Disgraceful behaviour.

 

[windingroad]

I was replying to someone who was blaming lockdown for reduced fare income, I’m just pointing out that there was self inflicted reduction of fare income beyond the lockdown/social distancing time frame. I’m not bothered who caused it.

If you don't know or care who caused it, how can it be self-inflicted? Who was doing the inflicting, exactly?

 

[DMckduck]

How Exactly is Shapps allowed to get away with the absolute waffle that is electrification time and time again. It’s a well known fact multiple electrification plans under this current government have been paused only to be shelved completely.

That whole speech just comes across as a mass crusade pandering to people who believe the government can do no wrong

 

[stj]

How do wages compare now to the end of BR?

 

[theking]

Funny how they have money for double time and days off for strike brakers but no money for the hard workers there day in day out.

They're even giving people who work from home it, you couldn't make it up.

 

[Starmill]

Actually plenty of salaried professionals do exactly that from time to time.

As someone who does precisely this, I wouldn't do it on front-line work.

Office workers do push their hours to get their employer ahead if they need to, but there's quid pro quo in it, i.e. you have some days in the month or certain weeks of the year when work is light and you're not taxed too heavily. Your annual salary includes these highs and lows, evened out for you usually in twelve payments. This quid pro quo doesn't exist with front-line work, which is defined as a requirement to be in a specific place at a specific time with no tolerance for lateness or less than perfect concentration, so I wouldn't take it on without extra pay or leave in lieu.

 

[Horizon22]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind. If the railway had done everything possible to facilitate revenue, your point would be valid, but the truth is the railway lagged woefully behind the rest of society in returning to normality, while devouring vast sums of taxpayers money at the same time.

As per the national guidance at the time and some DfT mandates. Yes it was deliberately doing it, but so were many other areas of the economy and naturally telling people to stop mixing is going to have a considerable impact on travel.

Your arguments still don't refer to the cherry-picking of a year that is nowhere near representative of usual rail demand.

 

[theking]

Bribe? Or additional pay for working outside their normal hours and responsibilities? Having gained the appropriate competencies of course.

would you work extra hours, or do different duties (and the training for it), without extra pay?

That's not what the video says at all if they don't strike they get double pay and a day off for their own job.

 

[Craig1122]

But the railway chose to perpetuate the lockdown, with do not travel advice, reduced timetables, silly restrictions (no alcohol, reservations only etc) outlasting societal need, reduced catering suppressing demand, artificial reduction of capacity by having unnecessary amounts of social distancing and allowing guards half a carriage to ‘do their duties.’ So, while you are right there was a lockdown, there was also a time when the railway was deliberately deterring normal custom for no good reason. Chickens coming home to roost springs to mind. If the railway had done everything possible to facilitate revenue, your point would be valid, but the truth is the railway lagged woefully behind the rest of society in returning to normality, while devouring vast sums of taxpayers money at the same time.

And pretty much all of these things, like most things on the railway at present, were mandated by the Dft.

It's been pointed out elsewhere that LNER is closest to pre covid numbers, they're also pretty much back to a full timetable. Ironically as a government owned company they have more operational freedom than private operators on NRC's.

 

[Watershed]

Funny how they have money for double time and days off for strike brakers but no money for the hard workers there day in day out.

They're even giving people who work from home it, you couldn't make it up.

It's almost as if there are 40,000 people not needing to be paid whilst they're on strike... the savings might even stretch far enough to pay a few thousand people double time!

Having a few people in, to allow a heavily reduced service to operate, really isn't going to materially change the outcome of the dispute. In any case it's just counteracting the cynical timing of the RMT's chosen strike dates. What's good for the goose...

 

[Craig1122]

As someone who does precisely this, I wouldn't do it on front-line work.

Office workers do push their hours to get their employer ahead if they need to, but there's quid pro quo in it, i.e. you have some days in the month or certain weeks of the year when work is light and you're not taxed too heavily. Your annual salary includes these highs and lows, evened out for you usually in twelve payments. This quid pro quo doesn't exist with front-line work, which is defined as a requirement to be in a specific place at a specific time with no tolerance for lateness or less than perfect concentration, so I wouldn't take it on without extra pay or leave in lieu.

Exactly this, it ebbs and flows in many professional jobs. I can think of one railway role where I would have been working 72 hours every week for extended periods of time given the number of places that needed cover. Nobody sane is going to do that for very long without extra pay or the kind of salaries some bankers or commercial lawyers get!

 

[Iskra]

As per the national guidance at the time and some DfT mandates. Yes it was deliberately doing it, but so were many other areas of the economy and naturally telling people to stop mixing is going to have a considerable impact on travel.

Your arguments still don't refer to the cherry-picking of a year that is nowhere near representative of usual rail demand.

Sorry, but you’ll need to point me to the legislation that mandated an alcohol ban and compulsory reservations please, when other industries (and even other TOC’s) were getting back to normal. If it was DFT mandated, surely we would have seen a consistent approach? Elements of the railway continued to unnecessarily deter income post-lockdown, while hoovering up vast sums of public subsidy. That is a fact, and subsequently the railway cannot use reduced income due to the pandemic as an excuse, when it perpetuated the situation.

 

[whoosh]

Let me put it another way. The median wage for rail workers is £44,000 and the median salary for train drivers is £59,000, with a fifth of drivers earning more than £70,000. But the average nurse earns around £31,000.

Funnily enough almost the exact thing a Daily Mail journalist said. I wonder who gave who the idea?

The median salary of a whole industry, then mention one of the best paying jobs, (who largely aren't striking) then the top 20% of that job - and then compare it with just one selected job in another industry.

What's the median wage in a hospital?