Rail strikes discussion

[Bald Rick]

A significant majority of those working signalling on strike days are those who manage, assess, or train signallers, who signal trains through the course of their normal work.

this isn’t people plucked from the cafe in Milton Keynes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But volunteering to do a completely different job to your own for a few extra quid, undermining strikers? I find that a pretty revolting way to behave. You’re effectively stealing someone else’s living from them.

Really? Surely helping out with the dreadful staff shortages is a kind thing to do. It helps improve the service for the passengers affected. Those striking are choosing to strike, are they not? Or do they have no choice? That would make a difference.

 

[320320]

It’s a difficult one isn’t it.

I personally have no issue with “strike breakers” who are doing so as part of their job. The most obvious example being guard managers working trains during a guard dispute, as will be happening next week (or for that matter drivers continuing to drive trains, as I’ll be doing myself next week!).

But volunteering to do a completely different job to your own for a few extra quid, undermining strikers? I find that a pretty revolting way to behave. You’re effectively stealing someone else’s living from them.

Those people are parasites. During the scotrail guard/TE strike last year we had office staff out working the trains, boasting that they were being paid as much as drivers and having lunch and taxis laid on for them.

Vermin.

 

[BrummieBobby]

Really? Surely helping out with the dreadful staff shortages is a kind thing to do. It helps improve the service for the passengers affected. Those striking are choosing to strike, are they not? Or do they have no choice? That would make a difference.

Volunteering to take the work of unionised staff who have democratically elected to strike, all for the personal gain of the strike-breaker, is anything but kind.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Volunteering to take the work of unionised staff who have democratically elected to strike, all for the personal gain of the strike-breaker, is anything but kind.

I see. A horrible situation all round.

 

[gabrielhj07]

all for the personal gain of the strike-breaker

What about the gain of the travelling public?

 

[nanstallon]

I can agree with all of that. I fully appreciate that ROSCOs are doing no more than exploiting their commercial position for the benefit of the shareholders, just as they should. My criticism is more how we have ended up with a system where the taxpayer underwrites significant ROSCO profits, while that utter see-you-next-Tuesday Shapps plays political football with the Ts and Cs of low paid staff.

....


.

Good old British risk-free capitalism, isn't it? ROSCO shareholders must be guaranteed their profits, as a national priority.

 

[43066]

A significant majority of those working signalling on strike days are those who manage, assess, or train signallers, who signal trains through the course of their normal work.

this isn’t people plucked from the cafe in Milton Keynes.

Fully appreciate that.

I suppose it comes down to whether it’s part of their job or whether it’s something they’re doing just to enrich themselves.

Really? Surely helping out with the dreadful staff shortages is a kind thing to do. It helps improve the service for the passengers affected. Those striking are choosing to strike, are they not? Or do they have no choice? That would make a difference.

To be honest it’s difficult to imagine the whole scenario if you’ve never worked in a unionised industry. It’s *not* about the passengers, it’s about your colleagues. The whole ethos of striking (which nobody wants to do) is that people are making a sacrifice for the good of the whole.

If my employer said to me as a driver, “the cleaners are on strike, can you go and do their job for double your own daily rate?”. And I said, “yes please”! What would that make me? Lower than a snake’s belly is what.

It’s visceral.

Those people are parasites. During the scotrail guard/TE strike last year we had office staff out working the trains, boasting that they were being paid as much as drivers and having lunch and taxis laid on for them.

Vermin.

Disgusting behaviour.

To be honest if anyone in my life acted like that, whether friend or colleague, I’d want nothing further to do with them. So I can well see how people get to the stage of “X doesn’t speak to Y because of what happened twenty years ago”.

I’m dreading the next few months tbh.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suppose it comes down to whether it’s part of their job or whether it’s something they’re doing just to enrich themselves.

none of them are doing it to enrich themselves. The contingency staff were all confirmed weeks before the pay arrangements were.

 

[Evolution]

Thanks for the link. I think its pretty clear that the government is squaring up for a fight, deliberately mentioning the 700s as well as driver wages is positioning ministers between the passengers and rail workers. Expect more rhetoric about driverless trains and high driver wages to help sour the public's opinions further. I know its way more complicated than that, but most of the public don't, and the Tories are clearly lining up to use that to their advantage.

It's going to get messy.

This is the reason people need to think very carefully before casting a vote in 2024 at the next GE. Do you want a little weasel like Michael Green/Grant Shapps or whatever the joke of a man is calling himself this week, calling the shots? This man used to sell get rich quick schemes under false names and he’s now dictating what happens within the rail industry. If given another term, this mob will come after pensions, and T&Cs and sub 2% pay rises will be the norm. You can see the animosity towards rail staff because we earn an half decent wage.

Labour/Lib Dems etc are far from perfect and they will increase taxes but they won’t come after our pensions/T&C’s etc. We need rid of this scummy government before they do more damage to the industry and the wider economy.

 

[Wolfie]

This is the reason people need to think very carefully before casting a vote in 2024 at the next GE. Do you want a little weasel like Michael Green/Grant Shapps or whatever the joke of a man is calling himself this week, calling the shots? This man used to sell get rich quick schemes under false names and he’s now dictating what happens within the rail industry. If given another term, this mob will come after pensions, and T&Cs and sub 2% pay rises will be the norm. You can see the animosity towards rail staff because we earn and half decent wage.

Labour/Lib Dems etc are far from perfect and they will increase taxes but they won’t come after our pensions/T&C’s etc. We need rid of this scummy government before they do more damage to the industry and the wider economy.

The Blair government clobbered civil service pensions in 2007, supposedly a set of once in a generation changes. The coalition hit them again in 2015. Don't assume that only the Tories will go after T&C's/pensions etc.

 

[Watershed]

Good old British risk-free capitalism, isn't it? ROSCO shareholders must be guaranteed their profits, as a national priority.

In the past that accusation might reasonably have been levelled against the ROSCOs. But nowadays it is not nearly as accurate a criticism; profits are lower than they were in the past and are by no means guaranteed (some ROSCOs have lost out big time with franchisees deciding not to renew contracts).

But the government's political dogma means that ROSCO profits of some form are guaranteed. For as long as the ROSCOs own the rolling stock you cannot expect them to lease it out for free.

 

[Evolution]

The Blair government clobbered civil service pensions in 2007, supposedly a set of once in a generation changes. The coalition hit them again in 2015. Don't assume that only the Tories will go after T&C's/pensions etc.

Look what happened to the police pensions under a Tory government, they obliterated them. The Tory’s are much more likely to come after pensions and T&C’s as part of a “reform package” than other parties would. They hate the idea of working class people earning a decent living, that’s clear to see.

And whilst I’m far from a fan of Mr Corbyn, judging by his comments on the proposed strikes yesterday, he’s clearly on the side of the railway workers. Something that can’t be said for Bozo or Starmer.

 

[XAM2175]

Is it not true that the wages have increased quite nicely particularly for Drivers since the demise of Public Ownership ?

It would be interesting to see how Rail workers salaries have in increased in the intervening period compared to the general populace, does anyone have any data on this ?

I don't have exact figures, but ironically yes, one of the most effective forms of competition between TOCs created by privatisation has been not for passengers but rather skilled employees. Virgin verses GNER has already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

Is the data feeding the online journey planners going to be updated imminently to reflect the strike timetables? TOC websites are still merrily selling tickets, not only on cancelled services, but on routes which have been completely axed on the Tues/Thurs/Sat!

This is occurring on a TOC-by-TOC basis. Avanti, for example, suspended all sales for the whole 21st-26th period within hours of the strike being announced, and their new schedules for the 21st to 23rd were uploaded earlier this evening.

However, they've only been able to suspend sales because all their services are marked as having compulsory reservations, so all they needed to do is set the available number of places to zero (which generates an "all services are sold out" message, but it's better than nothing). I would hope at the very least that other TOCs have prominent notices of the strike action displayed on their webpages as a basic measure until they're able to finalise and load the new schedules.

When you have finised your studies, I hope your job pays you what you want!

Based on his previous signature he's studying to be a conservative journalist, so in a sense this is work experience for him

 

[380101]

Those people are parasites. During the scotrail guard/TE strike last year we had office staff out working the trains, boasting that they were being paid as much as drivers and having lunch and taxis laid on for them.

Vermin.

100% agree! I had the misfortune to have a "manager" on a train I was travelling pass on during the guard/TE dispute last year make the statement of "I wouldn't get out of bed for the wage a TE is on" yet she was more than happy to come out and scab for her free sandwich and £300 and not even doing the same work as a TE!

 

[yorkie]

Volunteering to take the work of unionised staff who have democratically elected to strike, all for the personal gain of the strike-breaker, is anything but kind.

Nonsense. Actually striking is being anything but kind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

Good old British risk-free capitalism, isn't it? ROSCO shareholders must be guaranteed their profits, as a national priority.

Why not move to China?

 

[43066]

Good old British risk-free capitalism, isn't it? ROSCO shareholders must be guaranteed their profits, as a national priority.

To be fair the ROSCOs are profit making businesses which have done nothing more than entering into contractual arrangements beneficial to themselves.

That is what profit making businesses are supposed to do - indeed their directors are legally bound to act in the best (financial) interests of their shareholders. If those arrangements happen to be at the expense of the tax payer, more fool those who negotiated on the taxpayers’ side! The shareholders are also often institutional investors such as pension funds.

The fault is with the system, rather than with the ROSCOs themselves.

 

[brick60000]

It’s a difficult one isn’t it.

I personally have no issue with “strike breakers” who are doing so as part of their job. The most obvious example being guard managers working trains during a guard dispute, as will be happening next week (or for that matter drivers continuing to drive trains, as I’ll be doing myself next week!).

But volunteering to do a completely different job to your own for a few extra quid, undermining strikers? I find that a pretty revolting way to behave. You’re effectively stealing someone else’s living from them.

I disagree that you are stealing a living away from anybody. Ultimately, it is the choice of those striking to do so. That’s notwithstanding their right to strike, and the reasons for doing so. However - it is, as is always stressed by those striking, a democratic and free choice to do so.

The choice to sacrifice wages to stand up for what the employees as a collective believe in is, therefore, a choice. There is no theft here - management staff required or volunteering to work trains during strike action are likely fulfilling parts of their contract that will state (or similar) you must help the business in any reasonable means to conduct business activities. You can’t argue that moving passengers isn’t a reasonable business activity to fulfill…!

Really? Surely helping out with the dreadful staff shortages is a kind thing to do. It helps improve the service for the passengers affected. Those striking are choosing to strike, are they not? Or do they have no choice? That would make a difference.

I agree with this. Although I’m not saying I don’t support/understand the right to strike (or indeed, the reasoning for doing so…)

Those people are parasites. During the scotrail guard/TE strike last year we had office staff out working the trains, boasting that they were being paid as much as drivers and having lunch and taxis laid on for them.

Vermin.

Is it really appropriate to call colleagues “vermin”?

The pay is an incentive to those involved to do something outside of their minimal working, is it not? After all, see recent threads r.e. train crew wanting payments for scanning tickets (which is arguably more a part of a conductors day job than a manager guarding a train….). I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to be paid for doing something out of the ordinary.

 

[yorkie]

Is it really appropriate to call colleagues “vermin”?

No it isn't, but this is what some (a minority of) rail staff are like. Anecdotally, It tends to be more likely (but not exclusively) drivers who act like this, but of course most drivers wouldn't say anything like that so that's not in any way a generalisation of drivers, but just based on my observations of such behaviour and what I've heard from others.

Over time, this sort of attitude is very much on the decline. Unfortunately it's taking a bit longer in the rail industry than many other industries.

Attitudes like theirs are certainly pushing more and more against the strikes.

 

[43066]

Nonsense. Actually striking is being anything but kind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s *not* about the passengers, it’s about your colleagues.

That just sums it up really, doesn’t it. On a passenger railway/public transport.

Nonsense. Actually striking is being anything but kind.

Quite so. If they’re looking out for themselves by striking, why should the volunteers helping clean up the mess not look out for themselves too? The only difference is the latter do good for the public at the same time.

 

[320320]

Is it really appropriate to call colleagues “vermin”?

The pay is an incentive to those involved to do something outside of their minimal working, is it not? After all, see recent threads r.e. train crew wanting payments for scanning tickets (which is arguably more a part of a conductors day job than a manager guarding a train….). I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to be paid for doing something out of the ordinary.

Deliberately undermining a colleagues involvement in industrial action in order to line their own own pockets is reprehensible behaviour, IMO.

The working of trains is none of their concern and is in no way related to their grade. They should be utterly ashamed of their actions although you’d struggle to give any of them a brass neck with a blow torch.

 

[NI 271]

That just sums it up really, doesn’t it. On a passenger railway/public transport.

Maybe wait until you’ve experienced a workplace before telling people what they are allowed to think about theirs?

 

[43066]

Nonsense. Actually striking is being anything but kind.

I’m at a loss as to what you’re actually arguing here. Are you saying it’s “unkind” for staff to exercise their democratic right to strike?

Would you propose removing that right?

Why not move to China?

What does this even mean in the context of what you’ve just quoted?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe wait until you’ve experienced a workplace before telling people what they are allowed to think about theirs?

Excuse me, but I’ve been contractually employed by ITV, Royal National Theatre, several other West End theatres, three catering chains, a Train Operating Company, and a local South Wales radio station.

The ability of some (not all) militant rail staff to jump to conclusions on here is mind boggling.

 

[yorkie]

That just sums it up really, doesn’t it. On a passenger railway/public transport.

Some people just want to do a job because they either want money or because it suits them but have no interest in the bigger picture such as the impact on others or gaining a sense of achieving a greater good for society. That is their right of course, but not something that I'd like to be doing.

Quite so. If they’re looking out for themselves by striking, why should the volunteers helping clean up the mess not look out for themselves too? The only difference is the latter do good for the public at the same time.

But these people are only interested in their own interests and their own sense of logic; they are not interested in thinking about it from others' points of view.

Deliberately undermining a colleagues involvement in industrial action in order to line their own own pockets is reprehensible behaviour, IMO.

Anything you deem to be reprehensible almost certainly isn't.

The working of trains is none of their concern and is in no way related to their grade. They should be utterly ashamed of their actions although you’d struggle to give any of them a brass neck with a blow torch.

Again thanks for demonstrating the points I've been making in this thread!

I’m at a loss as to what you’re actually arguing here. Are you saying it’s “unkind” for staff to exercise their democratic right to strike?

I don't see how striking is being kind to anyone, which appeared to be the suggestion. If you think striking is a kind thing to do, I'm all ears as to the explanation.

Would you propose removing that right?

I do think it is looking like some reforms will be needed in this area.

What does this even mean in the context of what you’ve just quoted?

Let's go back to the original post; what does the original poster mean by going on about "British risk-free capitalism"? I think some people are very keen to moan about life here but have no idea how lucky we are to be here.

Excuse me, but I’ve been contractually employed by ITV, Royal National Theatre, several other West End theatres, three catering chains, a Train Operating Company, and a local South Wales radio station.

None of that counts in the eyes of the militants. However if you'd had just one job as frontline rail staff, and no other experience, that would count in their eyes.

The ability of some to jump to conclusions on here is mind boggling.

You mean the ability of some militant rail staff (again it's a minority), some of whom happen to be on here. It's by no means representative.

 

[320320]

No it isn't, but this is what some (a minority of) rail staff are like. Anecdotally, It tends to be more likely (but not exclusively) drivers who act like this, but of course most drivers wouldn't say anything like that so that's not in any way a generalisation of drivers, but just based on my observations of such behaviour and what I've heard from others.

Over time, this sort of attitude is very much on the decline. Unfortunately it's taking a bit longer in the rail industry than many other industries.

Attitudes like theirs are certainly pushing more and more against the strikes.

I wonder if there’s any correlation between attitudes like this and the comparable median pay scales between the rail industry and the likes of the NHS, the police and the fire service.

 

[windingroad]

Why not move to China?

Is this really your response to the most mild critique of one specific element of capitalism?

 

[yorkie]

Is this really your response to the most mild critique of one specific element of capitalism?

If the poster would like to post a mild critique of one specific element of capitalism in a constructive manner, then that would be useful....

 

[BrummieBobby]

Let's go back to the original post; what does the original poster mean by going on about "British risk-free capitalism"? I think some people are very keen to moan about life here but have no idea how lucky we are to be here.

You are lucky you don't live in Russia
You are lucky to just have a job
You are lucky to be paid so well

Put the brake on the race to the bottom; public services (The railway included) are falling apart in front of our eyes and times are getting hard for most people, yet we, as railway employees, are meant to just meekly comply? No, if anything, more people should be following our example and attempting to resist.