Rail strikes discussion

[Gems]

It's ALWAYS about PAY! Even when the unions say it's about safety or job roles or anything else, it all comes down to PAY. As someone else says, unions generally do a great job in supporting their members with legal and other matters. Where they go wrong is when their leaders use their ideology to take advantage of a situation like the one we're in now. No thought for the bigger picture and the negative impact on all the people impacted by the strikes at a difficult time for many. I'm alright Jack! They simply don't care and often display the same behaviours they accuse the people they are negotiating with of. I really despise this government (I know technically it's NOT the government but they provide the funds) but I hope they win this one and the unions lose it.

Is pay a ideology? No matter what your views we haven't had a rise in three years. Okay, we have had covid and we all accepted times were different, but I think offering something is needed.

 

[Iskra]

Everyone seems to be short of staff at the moment. I've never seen so many "we're hiring!" signs everywhere on every type of business. I'm getting several LinkedIn messages a day from recruiters asking me to apply to this job or that. I don't quite understand what's driving it.

A million missing European workers

 

[320320]

Nice to know you see your fellow colleagues as “vermin” and “parasites”. And you wonder why some believe railway staff attitudes should be confined to a bin in a previous generation.

I’ve done contingency roles before in the past to help “keep the job running” and I would do it again. But I wouldn’t go around boasting about it, I’d just quietly get on with things in a professional manner.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

Having witnessed, over an 8 month period, “contingency staff” undermining their colleagues who were partaking in industrial action i’m content with my description of them.

Office staff out working trains when it was unrelated to their grade, gleefully boasting about being paid as much as drivers at the expense of their colleagues, actively hoping that the strike went on past Christmas because of the amount of money they were making.

These people weren’t there for the good of the railway or the passengers, they were there, primarily, to benefit financially from their colleagues industrial action.

The amount of money that was on offer for undermining colleagues versus the low number that actually took it up tells you exactly the way opportunistic behaviour like this is viewed in the workplace.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everyone seems to be short of staff at the moment. I've never seen so many "we're hiring!" signs everywhere on every type of business. I'm getting several LinkedIn messages a day from recruiters asking me to apply to this job or that. I don't quite understand what's driving it.

The loss of "slave labour" due to Brexit.

The fix is "pay more and offer better conditions".

The end to imported "slave labour" is, without doubt, a good outcome of Brexit (there aren't many, but this is one). It is time everyone was paid a wage they can live off. Hospitality is, in this regard, in a far worse position than most of rail.

 

[Iskra]

The loss of "slave labour" due to Brexit.

The fix is "pay more and offer better conditions".

The end to imported "slave labour" is, without doubt, a good outcome of Brexit (there aren't many, but this is one). It is time everyone was paid a wage they can live off.

Oh give over, that’s one of the most ridiculous posts ever on this forum.

Europeans were here by choice to earn far more than they did in their homelands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh give over, that’s one of the most ridiculous posts ever on this forum.

Europeans were here by choice to earn far more than they did in their homelands.

That's not the point. All jobs should pay a wage that can be lived off (a basic, but safe and acceptable, life, as people used to have). Bringing people in who are willing to live in slave-labour conditions (e.g. several to a bed) does not achieve that. It effectively closes those jobs as options for people who wish to live here and bring up a family in proper conditions.

Switzerland does this right - rather than a simple minimum wage there are banded wages for specific roles for immigrants which means you can't "undercut" in that way.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Oh give over, that’s one of the most ridiculous posts ever on this forum.

Europeans were here by choice to earn far more than they did in their homelands.

Just because someone does something willingly doesn't mean they are not being exploited.

 

[ExRes]

Why is the industry short of drivers? I don't believe it's a question of the number of applicants, which is where price is the key point in competitive markets. Reduce the number of employers of qualified drivers, and the competition on price will fall. Ditto if the industry can recruit more drivers so that establishments stop being so tight.

"Why is the industry short of drivers?" it's because the employers don't want the additional costs of recruiting and retaining them, why pay all the extra expenses when they can call on the current workforce to cover gaps? it's been happening for years and the empty promises have been made for years, people should also remember that ASLEF are as guilty as the employers, if the union were genuine with their claims on full recruitment they should stop agreeing to rest day working, an empty promise they've been making for years

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just because someone does something willingly doesn't mean they are not being exploited.

The negative effect wasn't just on those people, it had the effect of wage deflation which made things harder for those who would like to live in what we do, and should, consider a basic expectation in this country, namely that a family with two working adults* should be able to afford to rent a safe home in a good state of repair with enough bedrooms for their family, to heat it, to get around by public transport and to eat basic but nutritious food three times a day.

* Would be nice if it was one so all children can be brought up by their own parent(s) rather than industrialised early years childcare, but that can be handled via the benefits system. Note that I don't comment on which parent(s) - it can be the man, the woman or both could work part time and share it.

 

[wobman]

and once people have adapted to managing without trains, they won't necessarily all flock back to the railway after the strike is over. How many coal miners are left working in UK?

Im just wondering if this a serious comment? So your saying after 3 days of striking nobody will use the railways again ?

It's a sweeping & inaccurate comment, i don't understand the comparison with coal miners striking with the resulting industry being virtually closed down.

Could we really see the majority of passengers not ever travelling by train after next week's strike action !

 

[Iskra]

That's not the point. All jobs should pay a wage that can be lived off (a basic, but safe and acceptable, life, as people used to have). Bringing people in who are willing to live in slave-labour conditions (e.g. several to a bed) does not achieve that. It effectively closes those jobs as options for people who wish to live here and bring up a family in proper conditions.

Switzerland does this right - rather than a simple minimum wage there are banded wages for specific roles for immigrants which means you can't "undercut" in that way.

Just because someone does something willingly doesn't mean they are not being exploited.

I’m sorry but @Bletchleyite ‘s use of the term slave labour, is totally disingenuous.

 

[ExRes]

Oh give over, that’s one of the most ridiculous posts ever on this forum.

Europeans were here by choice to earn far more than they did in their homelands.

And you think that paying people as little as possible and, of course, far less than UK citizens is being nice because they are treated worse in their own EU country?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m sorry but @Bletchleyite ‘s use of the term slave labour, is totally disingenuous.

Do note the quotes. They are quite deliberate.

I find the level of "champagne socialism" in the Remain camp (despite being a member of it myself) quite astounding. "It's OK for me to be paid well and enjoy freedom of movement, but I should be able to have a meal at a rock bottom price served by an immigrant waiter who is paid a pittance and shares a bed so they can afford to live". No. Everyone in the UK should be paid enough (or the benefits system should adjust things for them) to maintain a basic quality of living.

 

[Goldfish62]

The loss of "slave labour" due to Brexit.

The fix is "pay more and offer better conditions".

The end to imported "slave labour" is, without doubt, a good outcome of Brexit (there aren't many, but this is one). It is time everyone was paid a wage they can live off. Hospitality is, in this regard, in a far worse position than most of rail.

Decreasing the wage gap is fundamental. There's huge wage inequality in this country and that is just wrong on so many levels. A 10% blanket pay increase will only worsen that. Many low paid workers, undoubtedly including railway workers, are in in-work poverty and it's they who need a really generous rise to start closing that gap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Decreasing the wage gap is fundamental. There's huge wage inequality in this country and that is just wrong on so many levels. A 10% blanket pay increase will only worsen that. Many low paid workers, undoubtedly including railway workers, are in in-work poverty and it's they who need a really generous rise to start closing that gap.

It is notable that drivers - who are the part of the rail industry who are paid very well - are not, as things stand, striking.

In a way it's a shame that the relatively high pay drivers get is influencing views on this - most staff represented by the RMT are paid far less than drivers.

 

[Goldfish62]

And you think that paying people as little as possible and, of course, far less than UK citizens is being nice because they are treated worse in their own EU country?

Do you have evidence of EU citizens being paid less than their UK colleagues in the same job due to their nationality?

 

[Iskra]

And you think that paying people as little as possible and, of course, far less than UK citizens is being nice because they are treated worse in their own EU country?

Stop spinning things.

I have taken issue with the grossly incorrect and distasteful use of the term ‘slave labour,’ to push an agenda.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Decreasing the wage gap is fundamental. There's huge wage inequality in this country and that is just wrong on so many levels. A 10% blanket pay increase will only worsen that. Many low paid workers, undoubtedly including railway workers, are in in-work poverty and it's they who need a really generous rise to start closing that gap.

I don't see an issue with a gap. I do see an issue with the fact that plenty of people can't, on two full time adult incomes, afford to maintain a basic but acceptable quality of life for their family without getting into debt. That isn't OK to me.

House prices (and by extension private rents) are the main cause of it, to be honest. A massive* social housing building project would probably be a good way to go to help solve it.

* Massive enough that renting a Council or housing association house/flat at a "break even" level of rent for life is an option available to anyone who wants it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

Stop spinning things.

I have taken issue with the grossly incorrect and distasteful use of the term ‘slave labour,’ to push an agenda.

Yes, it's to push an agenda - that everyone should be paid enough, whatever their job, to have a good basic quality of life for them and their family in the UK. I think that's really an agenda everyone should support, and if anyone doesn't then that really does speak volumes.

In, say, the 1950s, we had that. We don't now. It's unacceptable.

 

[wobman]

I’d also be interested to know!

I’ve only understood this to be about pay.

Please research the strike action by the RMT, this WILL show its not entirely about pay. There's over 2000 network rail staff being redeployed or taking redundancy, being offered a new job 100s of miles away as an alternative is the option many had, so they had to take voluntary redundancy.

The strike is a very complex one that people just think greedy drivers, the majority of drivers are not involved in the dispute at all. Only 2 small group's of aslef drivers are in dispute over pay, the vast majority are not involved in this.

People blindly belive the tories and their right wing press, which is a real shame as the more you research the dispute the more you understand the strike.

 

[Iskra]

I don't see an issue with a gap. I do see an issue with the fact that plenty of people can't, on two full time adult incomes, afford to maintain a basic but acceptable quality of life for their family without getting into debt. That isn't OK to me.

House prices are the main cause of it, to be honest. A massive* social housing building project would probably be a good way to go to help solve it.

* Massive enough that renting a Council or housing association house/flat at a "break even" level of rent for life is an option available to anyone who wants it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==



Yes, it's to push an agenda - that everyone should be paid enough, whatever their job, to have a good basic quality of life for them and their family in the UK. I think that's really an agenda everyone should support, and if anyone doesn't then that really does speak volumes.

In, say, the 1950s, we had that. We don't now. It's unacceptable.

But if you use falsehoods, it doesn’t support your position, it weakens it and discredits what you say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you use falsehoods, it doesn’t support your position, it weakens it and discredits what you say.

It's not a falsehood. It's an analogy.

Note, once again, the use of quotes.

 

[dk1]

It is notable that drivers - who are the part of the rail industry who are paid very well - are not, as things stand, striking.

Drivers are striking at my TOC next Thursday & again on Saturday 2nd July.

 

[yorkie]

It's quite clear we're not going to agree on the morality of striking, as I suspect we approach it from diametrically opposed perspectives. However, one area we likely agree is that the railway does need to modernise, potentially to a great extent. The difference is I simply don't accept that modernisation should come at the expense of staff, in large part or small. It is entirely possible to make changes without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

(And yes, I'd be happy to pay more tax, for all sorts of things, including your proposal.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==


I am not a railway worker and never have been. I will also be severely inconvenienced by the strike. Despite this I am fully supportive! You are doing the same thing you accuse others of by suggesting this is the railway versus the world.

It is not the railway versus the world; I never said that.

It is disappointing that you support those who seek to harm the industry, but it is your right to do so!

Having witnessed, over an 8 month period, “contingency staff” undermining their colleagues who were partaking in industrial action i’m content with my description of them.

This says a lot about you that you think such attitudes are acceptable.

Office staff out working trains when it was unrelated to their grade, gleefully boasting about being paid as much as drivers at the expense of their colleagues, actively hoping that the strike went on past Christmas because of the amount of money they were making.

We only have your word for it that this happened; how many people are you talking about exactly?

These people weren’t there for the good of the railway or the passengers, they were there, primarily, to benefit financially from their colleagues industrial action.

Says someone who is hardly working for the good of the passengers or the wider industry.

The amount of money that was on offer for undermining colleagues versus the low number that actually took it up tells you exactly the way opportunistic behaviour like this is viewed in the workplace.

I refer you to previous responses by other members regarding such pay comparisons; we don't need to go through this again.

Im just wondering if this a serious comment?

I often wonder similar about your posts!

So your saying after 3 days of striking nobody will use the railways again ?

The member did not say that at all. They said they won't all flock back.

Did you misread or are you deliberately misrepresenting?

It's a sweeping & inaccurate comment,

Except the comment was not actually made.

i don't understand the comparison with coal miners striking with the resulting industry being virtually closed down.

A direct comparison is not possible, but I don't think you should dismiss the harm that could be done to the industry.

Could we really see the majority of passengers not ever travelling by train after next week's strike action !

Did anyone say the majority would leave the railways?

I see no evidence that anyone said that; you've just made that up.

But the railway needs all the customers it can get at the current time and the actions which you and others support is hardly helping.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

It is notable that drivers - who are the part of the rail industry who are paid very well - are not, as things stand, striking.

Some are. When you give some people more, they just want more. Some people think money makes you happy but I have seen evidence of several unhappy train drivers who earn a very good wage so I would contest that! Of course, it's not a majority but a vocal minority, but they sure make themselves heard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some are. When you give some people more, they just want more. Some people think money makes you happy but I have seen evidence of several unhappy train drivers who earn a very good wage so I would contest that! Of course, it's not a majority but a vocal minority, but they sure make themselves heard.

To be fair, I'm well paid but would not say "no" to a pay rise were one offered. My standard answer to such discussions is along the lines of "well, I'm hardly poor, but I'd never turn down a pay rise, who would?"

I wouldn't however be looking to strike for one, and do recognise that the economic situation is such that I may well not get one this year.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is notable that drivers - who are the part of the rail industry who are paid very well - are not, as things stand, striking.

In a way it's a shame that the relatively high pay drivers get is influencing views on this - most staff represented by the RMT are paid far less than drivers.

And who are on higher wages than many of their European colleagues due to market forces arising from privatisation, something which Mick Whelan seems to have selective amnesia about.

 

[KM1991]

I have a question. Every time someone says the strikes are only about pay, a rail worker will claim that it's about more than pay, yet will never elaborate further. So from my (and several other's) point of view, you're standing next to the body with a bloody knife and sadistic smile on your face, saying 'it wasn't me guv'. So can someone who voted for strike action please tell us what more this is about?

I voted yes to strike action because of the lack of a pay deal. It is unacceptable to expect people to go without a pay rise when inflation is through the roof. And no, I’m not sorry for it.

Everyone should get a pay rise, I don’t want to hear any nonsense about inflation. The same ‘inflation’ that has increased astronomically despite almost everyone not receiving a pay rise throughout the last few years...oh but ‘Covid and Ukraine’ they cry...blah blah blah

 

[yorkie]

To be fair, I'm well paid but would not say "no" to a pay rise were one offered. My standard answer to such discussions is along the lines of "well, I'm hardly poor, but I'd never turn down a pay rise, who would?"

I wouldn't however be looking to strike for one, and do recognise that the economic situation is such that I may well not get one this year.

Exactly!

And who are on higher wages than many of their European colleagues due to market forces arising from privatisation, something which Mick Whelan seems to have selective amnesia about.

Indeed; a forum member who does some work for Swiss railways was telling me that a train driver in Switzerland gets a comparable wage to a secondary school teacher. There is a huge gap between the two in the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

I voted yes to strike action because of the lack of a pay deal. It is unacceptable to expect people to go without a pay rise when inflation is through the roof. And no, I’m not sorry for it.

Everyone should get a pay rise, I don’t want to hear any nonsense about inflation. The same ‘inflation’ that has increased astronomically despite almost everyone not receiving a pay rise throughout the last few years...oh but ‘Covid and Ukraine’ they cry...blah blah blah

Sounds like you are lacking knowledge in this area; you can't fix inflation by giving everyone a substantial pay rise. See earlier posts; we've been through this before.

 

[Iskra]

It's not a falsehood. It's an analogy.

Note, once again, the use of quotes.

Call it what you want, it’s still untrue and a ridiculous use of the phrase.

You’re not quoting anyone, so they are meaningless.

- - -

Done with this particular conversation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Call it what you want, it’s still untrue and a ridiculous use of the phrase.

I disagree. But more importantly, are you in favour of low-wage imported labour?

You’re not quoting anyone, so they are meaningless.

I don't think you understand how quotes can be used to alter meaning of a phrase. It doesn't purely mean someone said it.

 

[KM1991]

Sounds like you are lacking knowledge in this area; you can't fix inflation by giving everyone a substantial pay rise. See earlier posts; we've been through this before.

Nope. All spin. Too many people have been underpaid for far too long.